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Christian Bakers Fined, Gagged in Gay Cake Case

Discussion in 'News Stand' started by Chad, Jul 7, 2015.

  1. Once again, let me be as clear as possible. The bakers are not wrong in considering gay sex as sin. But NOWHERE in scripture does it say that gay sex is any worse than any other sin of abomination. So, by singling out a gay couple for special reprobation when they knowingly serve other sinners, the bakers themselves commit the sin of hypocricy. I might point out that, while Jesus never says ANYTHING specifically about the sin of gay sex, he goes on at some length regarding the sin of hypocricy.
     
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  2. Greetings again,

    First I would like to say that I totally agree with what I understand the above quote by @Kirby D. P.
    However, when we consider the facts regarding this situation we cannot (if we are to be honest) overlook or ignore that while the above quote on its own can stand on its own, it does not necessarily portray the actions OR reasoning of the bakers AND it most certainly and most definitely does not provide reason or excuse or justification for the treatment that either party has so far been subjected to.

    While it is appropriate to uphold standards and to refuse hypocrisy the same standards of appropriateness must be upheld in all areas and if not, the whole stance would itself be completely hypocritical.
    While we can all attempt to justify the length of a box, for example, if we ignore the breadth and depth we would be foolish to suggest that we have taken into account all aspects of the case (box). If we are only interested in one measurement in order to suit a purpose predetermined then so be it but we would remain ignorant and impoverished in regards to the box (case) itself and would at most be only satisfying our need or desire to have a stand alone measurement or judgement.

    Now, in regards to a couple wanting to be able to fill their box with what they believe to be the best, while a couple of women might decide upon a carnal relationship, another couple being a man and woman, might decide upon an eternal relationship.
    While both have a right to choose or decide, both also have the right to refuse anything that they honestly believe to be contradictory or hypocritical to what it is they have chosen.

    From what I have learned of this obscene case against a Christian couple for simply not being able to ignore their conscience there should be a public outrage from all people and groups who value decency and fairness and especially from those who demand their rights to such treatment themselves (or for others).

    Looking at the Christian Faith from a deliberate viewpoint or looking at it from a position that limits seeing its full beauty and splendour is like looking at a book from the outside (or perhaps only from its position in our preferentially arranged or deranged bookcase and claiming to know it's contents.
    The bakers judged their own hearts and their own love and made their decision based on that. They did not (from what I understand) judge the women's hearts nor their love.

    It is a very sad and sick nation that will stand by and watch either Christians or Lesbians being ill treated to what equates to persecution (that NONE of us would want for our children, our spouses or our neighbours.)

    This case is not about whether someone was refused service. It is about injustice and inequality being carried out by a government and it's legal system.
    While we all (you, me and everyone) expect as much decency as should be shown all, we must stand up for the rights of all others to be treated the same as what we expect ourselves, even those we do not wish to bed with. The bakers in this case have been excessively punished and turning a blind eye to it is the same as bedding with it. That would be hypocrisy.

    Bless you ....><>
     
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  3. Your thinking /reasoning continues to miss the target! No true conservative Christian is arguing with you on this, but you fail to see the important point. It is not the sin but the unrepentantiveness of the sinner.
    I am sure if a open / professing pedophile said ...bake me a cake and put little children on top of the cake, the same Baker would refuse them as well based on religious convictions , especially if pedophilia were legal! Again, the Baker is no more a big-got than God is!...Wake up!!!!
     
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  4. If God does not single out gay sex as deserving punishment greater than that of divorce or adultery, then the bakers are inventing moral standards of their own and treading into His exclusive domain. I'm working from my phone so it's too hard to find the sources I would normally cite from my computer, but the classical rabbis once took up the subject of whether, since cruelty to animals is sin, then is it not more pious to be a vegetarian than to eat meat? They resolved that, since God explicitly permits the consumption of meat, there is nothing impious about it and, hence, a vegetarian is not inherently more pious than someone who eats meat because it is impossible to be holier than what God already prescribes. God already PROscribes gay sex as an abomination. So is lust. So is original sin. In order to pursue their policy on Christian grounds, the bakers presume to stigmatize homosexuality over these other sins of which EVERYONE is guilty. They are (unintentionally) trying to be holier than God, adding the sin of haughtiness to their sin of hypocricy. WHY they are trying to do this is a matter for them to sort out in their own private counsel with the Spirit of the Lord. However, as an outside observer, to me the two most likely reasons seem to be they are poorly educated on this point, or (sadly) they are simply disgusted by homosexuality.
     
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  5. Unrepentant sin is the real issue! There is no such thing as a Christian, with Christ living in them, and continue to be unrepentant! The two can not and does not happen!
     
  6. Wrong again. If the couple make a wedding cake for someone's second marriage, even if that divorcee claims to have "repented" their divorce, they continue to engage in that sin by not reconciling with a first spouse AND are committing adultery by marrying the second. The bakers don't know for certain that the lesbians will engage in gay sex (unless the lesbians told them so... Which would be weird). But they certainly have knowingly baked cakes for couples who openly plan bachelor and bachelorette parties where the attendees willingly subject themselves to temptation of (and commission of) the sins of drunkenness and lust. These are appropriate comparisons as opposed to the depiction of a heinous crime against an innocent victim like pedophilia. Stop defending the bakers' right to refuse service: that's not what I am critiquing. I am simply, and appropriately, explaining how the bakers have taken a symbolic stand against one very unChristian sin through commission of another very unChristian sin and, so, undercut their own declared piety.
     
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  7. Greetings again,

    @Kirby D. P.

    While what you are saying is seemingly correct I think that you may be overlooking the facts, which renders your comments void of any credit.
    From what I understand, the bakers would be hypocrites if they ignored their conscience AND they based their decision upon their own convictions and life choices NOT that of the women who claim to be offended.

    May I also add that it is totally hypocritical to expect and demand the rights to be gay or lesbian and have zero discrimination and to then discriminate against fellow human beings for exercising the same rights.

    You have made your point and I think it would be wise to not keep suggesting that the bakers are hypocrites as that would amount to slander and hatred based on an agenda to persecute,

    which will not be tolerated here from you or anyone else.

    It is OK to discuss hypothetical situations and as you have seen your hypothesis is not in debate to any excess BUT, if you continue to insist on false representation of the truth you do nobody, including yourself, any good.

    Please understand that you have been asked on behalf of TalkJesus to stop repeating yourself and to cease from portraying the bakers (real people in real life, not hypothetical nobodies) as hypocrites.

    Thank you for understanding,

    Bless you ....><>
     
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  8. #68 Kirby D. P., Jul 10, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 10, 2015
    There are two kinds of people: those who yet carry the burden of some unrepented sin... And Christ.

    I'm about tapped out on this issue. I am not here defending, endorsing or supporting gay sex. Neither am I saying that the bakers' legal/financial woes are justly deserved. One can very well claim that they are being punished for taking what they see as a moral stand. However, this forum is to talk Jesus.
     
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  9. #69 Br. Bear, Jul 10, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2015
    Thread temporarily closed to allow members to regain self-control.
    -----------------------------
    RE-OPENED NOW
     
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  10. Although the threads is closed, I'd like to make a strong point here. I did not read any responses in this 4 pages, but solely replying to your comment here.

    Wedding cake = for a wedding, a celebration of a couple getting married
    Gay wedding = celebrating a sinful, unrepentful lifestyle
    Baking a cake for a gay wedding = serving the sinful celebration of that gay wedding.

    The bakers are right, the gay couple who sued are selfish, greedy and intolerant of others beliefs. Nothing complicated in the ordeal here.
     
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  11. While Christians live in the world, there are many activities of the world which should be avoided as much as possible. Some things become a gray area at which Civil Law and Biblical Law may conflict. Understanding and wisdom are a wonderful thing, and even better if it's Spiritual wisdom which is allowed to flourish and replicate. The issue with the bake shop is about submission to civil authority. In this case, it put the proprietors at odds with spiritual authority. Pontius Pilate had no case against Jesus until the crowd alleged he had claimed he would become the King of the Jews. It was a charge Jesus did not deny. While Rome did not have a problem with kings and kingdoms, they had to swear allegiance to Rome, and upholding Caesar to be godlike in particular. Jesus could not do so in good conscience, and that sealed his fate. I apologize if I have it wrong as I do not wish to mislead anyone away from the King of kings. I agree that hypocrisy is a moral killer, but an unrepentant heart is a spiritual killer. Phil 4:8.
    Cheers, John
     
  12. It is that and the underlying problem with all of this talk about homosexuality.
     
  13. Ya know, one of the biggest problems here is that churches have come to the government and being told by them how to preach, what to preach, do not offend and get a 501c3 plan and get money, money, money. One of the biggest lies in churches today is that Christians are never to question or rebel against authority figures. No matter what to be good Christians we sit in silence and do not cause waves. Lies like this has broken down this nation and caused much of what we are seeing now. This is coming out of our leaders in our churches and it is destroying everything around us.
     
  14. I am not supporting the agenda against the christian faith by the gay community, but I have to say that the problem of pastors marrying people is only a problem "because" they do it legally through the state. No piece of paper or justice of the peace can truly entwine two souls into one successful union. That only happens with the "real" love and commitment of the two people intertwined with the Lord, for a cord of three is NOT easily broken. If I were a pastor, I would simply say I will not marry others based on govt rules and accepted as legal if I do it their way. I would marry only those who were male and female, AND love and respect each other, and counselling prior to the marriage to ensure their eyes were wide open to the needs of a union that God promotes. Then I would let them know if I married them, they would be married in the eyes of God only and not in the eyes of the state, and that it would be up to them to decide if they wanted a state sanctioned marriage for any benefits that might be available.
     
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  15. According to a Bell Curve utilizing ten people, one will do very well, one will do very poorly, and the remainder will fall somewhere in between. Paul wrote letters to the seven churches with all of them at differing stages of spiritual development with both admonishment and encouragement depending on the situation. Relationships, are more about interaction and it takes more than one to have a relationship. Some take them very seriously while some don't seem to care as long as they get what they want. Regrettably, Christians, can be no different regardless of who a specific relationship is with. One desirable attribute is seeing the forest for the trees. Unfortunately, the trees tend to get in the way unless we can elevate ourselves to look down such as a flyover in an aircraft. But then, objects on the ground can be obscured by the trees again leaving us having to look from above as well as around us.

    A preacher can refuse to marry Gay people provided the rules employed are applied to others as well. And, that's where the trees tend to get in the way. Ideally, a preacher would only be marrying those he was familiar with for an extended period of time. Unfortunately, the numbers within a church may be small and buildings cost money to use and maintain.

    Pride can also be an issue. As the song goes, it's hard to be humble when you're perfect in every way, or so some like to think. It's wonderful to hear Christian disciples declare their loyalty to Jesus and I wish them all the best to that end. Unfortunately, what works for us in one situation can work against us in another. Wisdom is a wonderful thing which can avoid potentially serious problems. But, sometimes you must make a stand even though it will cost dearly. The trick to doing so is with wisdom, understanding, resolve, and prayer seeking God's will. The trick is to keep yourself from being morally wrong, but allowing the other person a way out if they insist on getting their way. It isn't about losing, it's about keeping your Christian dignity and ultimately, your righteousness before Christ. Cheers, John
     
  16. This happened in Northern Ireland in May this year. The fine imposed was very small compared to the one stated here but the principle is the same.
    'Gay cake' row: Judge rules against Ashers bakery - BBC News

    These things and worse are going to happen... Lets not lose heart... We must pray for one another... We must be wise as serpents and harmless as doves.
    We don't have to say I cannot make you a cake you are gay, lesbian or same sex, play the devil at his own game, just say you are to busy. Then give it to the Lord in prayer and say, Lord this is to much for me and pray for the people to repent of their sins and accept Jesus into their hearts.

    The Devil is defeated, God is exalted and Jesus is coming again soon! Amen

    Galatians 1:3-5 (KJV)
    3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
    4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
    5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
    1 John 5:19-20 (KJV)
    19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
    20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
    Providing we are 'Born Again' John 3:3
     
  17. Interesting reading guys although I had to scratch my head occasionally. Not replying to any specific comment just a reply overall from part of what read so far.

    Sad for the Bakery, they really do need our prayers.

    SIN or sin, large or small, size of sin is defined by man, to God sin is sin full stop! It is a sin to rob a bank, it is a sin to steal a pen from work. Both are stealing, both are sin.

    Sex before marriage is a sin same as homosexuality or lesbianism are sins. Neither sin is bigger than another they are all SIN.

    Romans 8:18 (KJV)
    18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
     
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  18. True, but we don't glorify it in Church like a same sex Pastor or marriage as with gay marriages.
     
  19. My dear brothers and sisters in Christ, I understand what you are saying, may I add the following...

    The cake shop.
    1 - A couple come into your shop, they ask for you to make them a cake. You see a man and a woman you do not say, 'have you had sex before marriage' you act the couple as seen and agree to make them a cake.
    2 - A couple come into your shop, they ask for you to make them a cake. You see two men or two women! This should be a warning sign so it is not better to ask, 'When would you need the cake? Sorry I couldn't make for then we are so busy'

    Some things are right to make a stand for God, I feel these laws are all 'Anti-Christ' So, it is better to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. The more people are taken to court because of this law, the more we will see it grow.

    Same sex marriage in Church - gays or lesbians
    This is definitely much harder as we cannot say we are to busy, like we did with the cakes and the devil has for a period the law in place. Born Again Christians can use their most powerful tool though, Prayer. Prayer through the blood of Christ. This is where the 'whole Church' must come together in intercessory prayer and rebuke the devil and any situation not of God and His Word, though Jesus Christ our Lord. By whole Church, I am referring to firstly the Church in this place of Worship where the suggested wedding could take place. The baptised, born again believers, in this place of prayer and worship. Plus the Church worldwide, baptised, born again believers. It is sad, if this hurts us as believers, how much more it hurts our Lord, but we are heading towards the abomination that will cause desolation. Pray, pray, pray and give thanks our Lord has told us these things before time.

    Same sex pastors!
    How can this be? Simple, many pastors and ministers in many denominations are NOT Born Again. There are many who are very academic, there are many which are good speakers. They are in the world, not born again.
    I see three variations here...
    1 - both pastors/ministers are not born again (they shouldn't be leading the flock - Pray!)
    2 - one pastor/minister is born again and has been tempted the other may not be a pastor and is not saved (Pray!)
    3 - both pastors/ministers are born again but have been tempted. (Pray!)

    All three options are sad, the first is easy bait for the tempter, the second is a favourite of the devil as he is pulling one soul from Christ. The last is without doubt a terrible sight and it would appear the devil has won and has domain.
    He hasn't, he won't, he can't, he is getting desperate!

    Is it not important that congregations are Word Aware. That we know our Bibles! If your minister is not preaching the Word correctly, or avoiding passages of scripture, challenge him prayerfully.

    Are you happy to continue to pray and worship in a place where a pastor or minister is gay? You don't have to worship there and the true Church is the baptised, born again believers. But, I would add, be careful, the person next to you may be having sex before marriage, the person in the next row may be stealing, you may not have forgiven someone their sins against you, etc, etc, be careful, we are all sinners.

    Romans 1:16-32 (KJV)
    16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
    17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
    18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
    19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
    20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
    21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
    22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
    23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
    24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
    25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
    26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
    27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
    28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
    29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
    30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
    31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
    32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

    THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH!
     
  20. Greetings,

    What purpose is there in lying?

    Surely there's a better way?


    Bless you ....><>
     
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