Child like faith?

[KingJ]

If they had any faith at all, they would not have sinned.
It is written..."Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

This was your initial statement. I asked 'what faith shall the just live by?' As you said ''faith'' would have stopped them from sinning.

You then reply and say that faith is ''that God's word was true''.

Faith that God's word was true.

I have to completely disagree. It is completely illogical. They did not, not sin because they lacked faith in God's word being true.

They sinned because they loved the darkness more then the light. They all received the death penalty from God because their love of sin was full measure. Not because 'they failed to remain positive on God's promises'. The 'drawback' in the scripture you quoted is a return to sin. Not lack of faith. Both take place, but let's not get the cart before the horse.

They lost hope because they sinned. Not, sinned because they lost hope.

 

[complete]

'So then faith cometh by hearing,
and hearing by the word of God.'
(Rom 10:17)

Hello @Bro. Bear,

Bro. Bear:
Did you first become as a little child and then work those things out or come to realize them?

* I was just twelve years of age when I was brought to the realisation that I was a sinner, and needed a Saviour.

Bro. Bear:
Was repentance a part of that process?

* There was sorrow for sin, and sadness that my sin had necessitated the death of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Bro. Bear:
... and again, as a little child (or, to keep in mind the topic of this thread), with child like faith?

* I heard the Word of God, I believed the Word of God, I received the Living Word of God (in the person of God's Beloved Son.)

* I was, and am, God's workmanship.

Praise His Holy Name!

May you be filled with all joy in believing
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

'So then faith cometh by hearing,
and hearing by the word of God.'
(Rom 10:17)

For the word of the LORD is right; and all His works are done in truth. Psalm 33:4

But let all those that put their trust in Thee rejoice: let them ever shout for joy, because Thou defendest them: let them also that love Thy name be joyful in Thee. Psalm 5:11


Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

@KingJ
Greetings,

But when he (Peter) saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me. Matthew 14:30

So we see that they (The Children of Israel) could not enter in because of unbelief. Hebrews 3:19

Yet in this thing ye did not believe the LORD your God, Dueteronomy 1:32

And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all His commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth: Dueteronomy 28:1

Incline your ear, and come unto Me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David. Isaiah 55:3

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17

Verily, verily, I (Jesus) say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:24

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on Me hath everlasting life. John 6:47


Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

Oh that men would praise the LORD for His goodness, and for His wonderful works to the children of men! Psalm 107:8

Greetings,

remembering the topic of this thread,

Come, ye children, hearken unto me: I will teach you the fear of the LORD. Psalm 34:11

The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. Psalm 14:2

How excellent is Thy lovingkindness, O God! therefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of Thy wings. Psalm 36:7

Hear, ye children, the instruction of a father, and attend to know understanding. Proverbs 4:1

Hear me now therefore, O ye children, and depart not from the words of my mouth. Proverbs 5:7

Hearken unto me now therefore, O ye children, and attend to the words of my mouth. Proverbs 7:24

Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways. Proverbs 8:32

And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute? He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers? Peter saith unto Him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free. Matthew 17:24-26

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
1John 3:1


Bless you (all) ....><>

 

[KingJ]

Hi Br. Bear.

Before we further discuss, let's fully understand that we need to be so careful on the statements / insinuations we making as the new age teaching on faith is borderline witchcraft. Acts 17:11 Bible Study: Repentance from Witchcraft

'Name it, claim' for example:

Eze 13:6 They have seen vanity and lying divination, saying, The LORD saith: and the LORD hath not sent them: and they have made others to hope that they would confirm the word.

Lam 3:37 Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not?

Falsely quoting 'promises'. Prayer without mentioning ''may your will be done Lord'. They are their own god. They know God's will. Satanism 101.

So, please, lets tread carefully on this subject. Properly grasping the full context of every verse we use.

I will now post my hermeneutical interpretation of those verses you have selected.

 

[KingJ]

Greetings,
But when he (Peter) saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me. Matthew 14:30

Peter did not know Jesus was the Son of God / God. He received this revelation later from God Matt 16:16-17.

Hence the faith Peter needed here was a faith 'in' the person already walking on water. The miracle worker / a man called Jesus. This faith would be directly related to a mental state of positivity and confidence. A kind of ''If He can do it, I can''. The kind of confidence we would have in walking past a tame lion after another stranger just did it. A moment of acting different / or any sudden / abnormal movement would result in our hand being bitten off.

This is not Christian faith. The faith we have in Jesus. Once Peter had received the revelation of who Jesus was, he would be able to skip on water. But he did not do that. He now knew / grasped 1. Jesus is God. 2. God's power available through Jesus. 3. God's will for us. He knew that skipping on water would bring no glory to God. He knew that God is not boastful. A Christian, due to the Holy Spirit, 'knows' God. Peter previously knew 'about' God. The difference is North verse South pole. Child of God verse neighbors child.

An onlooker seeing Peter skipping on water, or at least 'trying' (as it seems many Christians do with regards to prayer for things) may see it as an innocent gesture of putting faith to the test. When it could in fact be on par with the devil tempting Jesus. Satanism mistaken for Christianity.

(The Children of Israel) could not enter in because of unbelief. Hebrews 3:19

I do not believe the context of 'unbelief' here is simply a 'lack of faith'. I would ask what that faith is that is lacking. The insinuation of quoting this verse without an explanation, I can only assume is that faith is a stand alone word. Directed at the opposite of 'belief'. Literally a case of '''they did not believe they would get to the promised land''? There are so many detailed explanations of why God killed people in the wilderness. In every explanation you will see the people in question being guilty of grievous sin. On not a single occasion was it mentioned 'they were annihilated because they did not believe they would arrive at the fountain on the other side of the hill'.

The context is without a doubt rebellion. The Hebrews, who saw God / miracles on many / daily even, occasions would have to apply effort to having unbelief. It was a removal of God from their thoughts. They applied their minds to a state of unbelief. A forced mental state from rebellion. They made a 180 degree turn. It was not a case of 'their 20% faith in God taking them to the promised land was not 50% plus, so they died in the desert'.

We do have to read the full passage in Heb 3 for context. I have inserted my commentary on the passage.

Heb 3:7 So, as the Holy Spirit says: “Today, if you hear his voice, 8 do not harden your hearts (harden is to turn from God. A soft heart welcomes God) as you did in the rebellion, during the time of testing in the wilderness, 9 where your ancestors tested and tried me, though for forty years they saw what I did. 10 That is why I was angry with that generation; I said, ‘Their hearts are always going astray, and they have not known my ways.’ 11 So (the reason they do not enter the promised land, mentioned in prior verse, 'so' is preparing the verdict) I declared on oath in my anger, ‘They shall never enter my rest.’ ”12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end (As already mentioned, this is a faith in God that we as Christians can relate to the Hebrews on. We just have to grasp that belief here is not a stand alone word. We will keep our faith to the end if we do not harden our heart / enter rebellion to God, as this passage repeatedly states) 15 “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion.” 16 Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17 And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies perished in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

 

[Br. Bear]

And when they were come into the ship, the wind ceased. Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped Him, saying, Of a truth Thou art the Son of God. Matthew 14:32-33

Greetings KingJ,

thank you for your reply. It is an honour that we can discuss Scripture together and openly examine the Scriptures for the building up of not only ourselves but the Body at large.

So, please, lets tread carefully on this subject. Properly grasping the full context of every verse we use.

Yes, indeed.

Peter did not know Jesus was the Son of God

If we look back through Matthew's Gospel account, we see/read over and again to the contrary. Of course, I for one can not vouch for what Peter knew and didn't know and the account of Peter declaring Jesus as the Christ and Son of God did come later...(2 or 3 verses later)

He received this revelation later from God Matt 16:16-17.

However, Jesus not only did many miracles (similar situation as with the Hebrews/Children of Israel) but it was made known that He was the Son of God. There are parallels to be seen between the account of Peter on water and the Children of Israel and the report of giants having been seen. Both had had plenty of evidence to realize that the LORD could be (can be) trusted explicitly with our safety and yet they looked at the circumstances and yielded to fear.
[note: this is only looking at Matthew's account, not including Mark, Luke and John]

I suppose the thing I would like to draw out from there, and this is open to everyone, is the notion of 'child-like faith' in relation to both these events/accounts we read in Scripture.

The context is without a doubt rebellion.

Rebellion might be ... going against, rather than going with or along with. Go and possess the land... NO!

I was going to post Hebrews chapter three but thought that I had better not make my post too long and add too much in one mouthful. (I do tend to write long posts sometimes and am aware of the difficulty in reading all I write for those only partially interested, so I try sometimes to hold back... although not often successfully)
The reason I was going to post it (Hebrews 3 was because it does speak of the overall lack of faith on the part of the Hebrews and is addressing men much later... and applies to us all today, too.
It speaks about hearing, faith, entering and belief (unbelief).

Note also that the Hebrews (Children of Israel) had Moses. Peter had Jesus the Son of man before His sacrificial death for our sins and we have Jesus Christ, resurrected and the fullness of the Holy Ghost being given to men.
One might say that they had Moses, Peter had Jesus.... who ought to be more convinced? And, what is our excuse?
And immediately Jesus stretched forth His hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt? Matthew 14:31

So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. Hebrews 3:19

John 6:26-36 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek Me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for Him hath God the Father sealed. Then said they unto Him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent. They said therefore unto Him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but My Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is He which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

Then said they unto Him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to Me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on Me shall never thirst.

But I said unto you, That ye also have seen Me, and believe not.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:16

But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name: John 1:12

That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:15

Praise the LORD


Bless you ....><>

 

[complete]

Hello again,

Faith is just believing what God says concerning His Son, and acting upon it by simply trusting in the sacrificial word of the Lord Jesus Christ on our behalf.

The quality or quantity of the faith we possess is immaterial, where salvation is concerned: for the application of God's Word to us, by the Holy Spirit, once we are saved, will increase and strengthen our faith, and produce growth in grace and truth accordingly.

Praise His Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
our risen and gloriified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris

 

[KingJ]

And when they were come into the ship, the wind ceased. Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped Him, saying, Of a truth Thou art the Son of God. Matthew 14:32-33

We have to grasp the difference between this verse and Matt 16:16-17. Because the difference is worlds apart.

In the above verse we see that the grounds for them stating Jesus is truly the Son of God, is Him stopping a storm. In Matt 16:16-17 it is a direct spiritual revelation from God. It does come after. Which means it was a revelation Peter needed. A revelation, understanding of Jesus that He did not previously have. One that seeing Jesus stopping a storm did not provide. In Matt 16:16-17 a devout disciple, became a child of God. A Christian. Peter received Christian faith. Previously, in Matt 14:32-33, he did not receive Christian faith. He saw a man claiming to be God to a great miracle and his brain concluded that this man must be more then a man. Any unsaved person can come to this conclusion. Consider Napoleon, The Sacred Page: Napoleon's Proof for the Divinity of Jesus. This does not mean they ''are fully convinced''. This ironically does not mean they know or truly believe He is the Son of God. As nobody can truly call Jesus Lord without the Holy Spirit 1 Co 12:3. We do not get saved because we see God do a miracle. We do not get saved if we say 'surely Jesus is real because that miracle just happened'.

The reason I say we must tread carefully is because the difference in conclusions / interpretation of this scripture is the difference between a child of God verse a wicked and adulterous generation looking for a sign to believe. Jesus did miracles to be known as being more then a man, fact. That belief in His power / Him being more then a man, is not Christian faith. It is a part of Christian faith. Christian faith is grasping Jesus at a level beyond our five senses.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings KingJ,

we must tread carefully

Yes, agreed.

In the above verse we see that the grounds for them stating Jesus is truly the Son of God, is Him stopping a storm.

Is it possible that the many other things they both saw and heard and even did might have also had some bearing upon their worship.
Or, in other words, if someone performs a miracle like that, does that mean that he is the Son of God?
I am not sure where you get your conclusions from.

He saw a man claiming to be God to a great miracle and his brain concluded that this man must be more then a man

I can not vouch for that either from faith or from trying to, nor from any account in Scripture.

This does not mean they ''are fully convinced''. This ironically does not mean they know or truly believe He is the Son of God. As nobody can truly call Jesus Lord without the Holy Spirit 1 Co 12:3.

Speaking of using and quoting Scripture, calling Jesus Lord is not the same as saying that He is the Son of God.
The chap who declared that at the cross, was he 'Spirit filled' (pardon the expression)

I don't understand what you mean by your closing sentence....

Christian faith is grasping Jesus at a level beyond our five senses.

Thank you for replying,


Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings all,

I was wondering if the Disciples might have seen something of one who could only be a child of their father by the way in which Jesus both spoke and lived up to and honoured His Father?
Is there something that children do that stands out as being someone's child? Obedience? Love? Speaking highly of one's father? Perhaps also referring over and again to one's father?
I take into mind that the culture they all lived in was such that things like that were both important and noticeable.

If, so, Jesus, being His Son was also His Child? Perhaps we need to become like Jesus?
Or, is that who we will become once we become like little children?


Bless you ....><>

 

[KingJ]

Is it possible that the many other things they both saw and heard and even did might have also had some bearing upon their worship. Or, in other words, if someone performs a miracle like that, does that mean that he is the Son of God?

No. Can you see Judas worshipping? Jesus could move a mountain and he would still not worship. Unless we need to now discuss the difference between worship and worship as we are doing with faith and faith.

If someone performs a miracle like that, you, everyone witnessing it will believe He is who He says He is. This does not mean we now ''grasp' who he actually is. We just believe what He says. That revelation of Him is what Peter received in Matt 16:16-17. Is what everyone who passes God's judgement receives. That revelation is what we need to call Christian faith. We become Christians when God the Holy Spirit reveals Jesus to us as He did to Peter.

I can not vouch for that either from faith or from trying to, nor from any account in Scripture.

They saw a storm stop. They then said, wow, if this man says He is the Son of God, He must be true. You need to try visualize the incident.

Speaking of using and quoting Scripture, calling Jesus Lord is not the same as saying that He is the Son of God. The chap who declared that at the cross, was he 'Spirit filled' (pardon the expression). II don't understand what you mean by your closing sentence..

Calling Jesus the Son of God is the same as calling Him, Lord. Isa 9:6 confirms that.

The difference is calling Him Lord from logical deduction and then knowing He is Lord from a spiritual revelation.

Napoleon, Judas and every devil know He is Lord from logical deduction. But none of them '''know'' Him. He does not reveal ''Himself'' to them. Even though He does reveal Himself to them.

Example: A girl can see me, but unless she becomes my wife she cannot know me. Now the faith a 'girl' has in me verse the faith my 'wife' has in me is worlds apart. Christian faith is the latter. If we teach it as the prior we are in serious error.

We are children of God. We have faith a child has. We need to teach who we are. We are not the neighbors children. We do not need and must not teach the faith they need.

The criminal next to Jesus was judged and received a revelation of Jesus as Peter and every Christian today does. I completely believe in deathbed experiences / ten second conversions. God knows our hearts.

Thank you for replying,..

It is a pleasure talking to you.

 

[At Peace]

This was your initial statement. I asked 'what faith shall the just live by?' As you said ''faith'' would have stopped them from sinning.
You then reply and say that faith is ''that God's word was true''.

I have to completely disagree. It is completely illogical. They did not, not sin because they lacked faith in God's word being true.

You used a double-negative, meaning that you REALLY said..."They DID sin because they lacked faith that God's word was true."
That is in agreement with me.

They sinned because they loved the darkness more then the light. They all received the death penalty from God because their love of sin was full measure. Not because 'they failed to remain positive on God's promises'. The 'drawback' in the scripture you quoted is a return to sin. Not lack of faith. Both take place, but let's not get the cart before the horse.

Your use of such semantics doesn't negate my POV.
You say "They failed to 'remain positive' on God's promises".
How does that differ from 'losing faith' in God's promises?

They lost hope because they sinned. Not, sinned because they lost hope.

When was "hope" introduced into the discussion?
Had they any hope to begin with, they never would have sinned.
Hope is a product of faith.
Caleb and Joshua had faith, and hope.
The rest had neither.

People who commit sin, despite the promised destruction inherit therein, HAVE to be acting with absolute disregard of what God has said and promised.
That is a complete lack of faith-belief in God's trustworthiness.
Same than as it is today.

 

[At Peace]

Greetings all,
I was wondering if the Disciples might have seen something of one who could only be a child of their father by the way in which Jesus both spoke and lived up to and honoured His Father?
Is there something that children do that stands out as being someone's child? Obedience? Love? Speaking highly of one's father? Perhaps also referring over and again to one's father?
I take into mind that the culture they all lived in was such that things like that were both important and noticeable.

If, so, Jesus, being His Son was also His Child? Perhaps we need to become like Jesus?
Or, is that who we will become once we become like little children?
Bless you ....><>

We will manifest our Progenitor by the fruit we bring forth.
Become like Jesus?
Happens at our rebirth from incorruptible seed by the word of God.
That won't happen without faith that it is true.
Belief without doubt is the child's way.

 

[At Peace]

Calling Jesus the Son of God is the same as calling Him, Lord. Isa 9:6 confirms that.
The difference is calling Him Lord from logical deduction and then knowing He is Lord from a spiritual revelation.
Napoleon, Judas and every devil know He is Lord from logical deduction. But none of them '''know'' Him. He does not reveal ''Himself'' to them. Even though He does reveal Himself to them.
Example: A girl can see me, but unless she becomes my wife she cannot know me. Now the faith a 'girl' has in me verse the faith my 'wife' has in me is worlds apart. Christian faith is the latter. If we teach it as the prior we are in serious error.
We are children of God. We have faith a child has. We need to teach who we are. We are not the neighbors children. We do not need and must not teach the faith they need.

The criminal next to Jesus was judged and received a revelation of Jesus as Peter and every Christian today does.. God knows our hearts.

I'm glad that you see the difference between those who 'say' they are Christians and those who 'are' Christians.

 

[Born Again 2004]

I'm glad that you see the difference between those who 'say' they are Christians and those who 'are' Christians.

Of course he knows the difference; the difference is being "Born Again"...those who posses their second birth, spiritually, through the action of the Holy Spirit and not personal works of being sinless and perfect.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

Of course he knows the difference; the difference is being "Born Again"...those who posses their second birth, spiritually, through the action of the Holy Spirit and not personal works of being sinless and perfect.

Surely the second birth is the act of grace bestowed upon a sinner? Remaining unspotted reflects the attitude to that grace. Remembering that first love.


Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

Belief without doubt is the child's way.

and in keeping with the thread discussion, is such belief without doubt something prior to conversion or is it the result of said conversion?
A sort of which came first, the chicken or the egg.


Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings once more,

Caleb and Joshua had faith, and hope.
The rest had neither.

or, did they refuse to walk in it, whatever the reason or deliberation on their part?

Fear is a very real enemy and from the beginning has been used to make man stumble and fall.
Is there any chance that the fear that so often takes over people is not purely their doing?
Is it entirely their fault?
They were not struck down as some were in Scripture but they did have to pay the consequence. That being said, I am reminded of the Scripture that tells us that the LORD remembers that we are dust.

For He knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust. Psalm 103:14


Bless you ....><>