Can a Christian lose their salvation? YES

[TaylorDonBarret]

 

[Seeker Of Jesus]

Hebrews 6:6:

If they Shall FALL AWAY, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to an open shame.

Strong's Concordance:

apostasia: defection, revolt
Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apostasia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)
Short Definition: defection, apostasy
Definition: defection, apostasy, revolt.

646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."



1 Corinthians 15:2 :

By Which also ye are saved, if we keep in memory what i preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain

Strong's Concordance:

eiké: without cause or reason, vainly
Original Word: εἰκῇ
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: eiké
Phonetic Spelling: (i-kay')
Short Definition: without purpose, in vain
Definition: without a cause, purpose; purposelessly, in vain, for nothing

 

[Brighthouse]

1 Tim 4:1-5! Please pay attention, as in verse 3 examples are given. The best example for both sides of this issue, where a brother and sister can keep the peace with each other on this subject is found in one of my most favorite parables!( Matt 13:18-23!!) It is not Jesus faith that can become lost,it is rather our belief in his faith!

Remember brothers and sisters OUR only work!!( John 6:28-29) For if the very faith that Jesus gave to all men( Rom 12:3) could become lost in any way,then there really is no hope whatsoever for any of us!! With this in mind now let us look at this parable! verse 19 hearing the word( Rom 10:17) but not understanding the words,causes these to fall away.

Verse 20-21 hears the word and believes for a time!! For belief in ones own self can sure change! Hence why believing is a daily work in itself!!( 2 cor 13:5). Verse 22 hears the word,but money, as in SOME preachers, as we all know who peddle the Word for money!( 2 cor 2:17) Finally, where I believe most of us are at in Christ Jesus right now! verse 23!

HERE!!!! OSAS is true! For here fruit establishes the measure to our belief in what Christ faith has done!( john 15:1-8!!!) And here and only here,are we sealed!( Eph 1:11-17!!!). Fruit is the proof that our branch is attached to the very tree of life, our Jesus! ( Matt 7:16-20!!!!)

Example!( mark 11:12-14), then look at the result of being lukewarm in mark 11:20-26)( side note Rev 3:16) To me, humbly brothers and sisters, I speak this, as well as in great boldness,It is NOT possible for anyone to take away what Jesus has already done for each one of us,but it is very possible for people themselves to not believe in what Jesus has done,this is our choice!

We have always had choice.( Joshua 24:14-17) and (Rom 10:10!!) There is no chapter or verse which says Jesus believes for any of his people! That is our own work,and our own result from that belief! We believe in what Jesus has already done,we receive,we doubt,and we do without!Simple! The only difference between the sheep and the goats,is what they did,and did not do!( Matt 25:31-46!) May this increase our belief, and further our foundation of Christ love upon our ground,and for each other in our words amen!( Eph 3:17-19!!)

 

[Seeker Of Jesus]

Amen, God bless Mark!

 

[Chad]

I agree with you brother @Brighthouse

This verse I believe applies to those who pretended to be believers, or simply not genuine born-again Christian to put it succinctly

1 John 2:19
These people left our churches, but they never really belonged with us; otherwise they would have stayed with us. When they left, it proved that they did not belong with us.

For believers...

Romans 8:31-39

Nothing Can Separate Us from God’s Love

31 What shall we say about such wonderful things as these? If God is for us, who can ever be against us? 32 Since he did not spare even his own Son but gave him up for us all, won’t he also give us everything else? 33 Who dares accuse us whom God has chosen for his own? No one—for God himself has given us right standing with himself. 34 Who then will condemn us? No one—for Christ Jesus died for us and was raised to life for us, and he is sitting in the place of honor at God’s right hand, pleading for us.

35 Can anything ever separate us from Christ’s love? Does it mean he no longer loves us if we have trouble or calamity, or are persecuted, or hungry, or destitute, or in danger, or threatened with death? 36 (As the Scriptures say, “For your sake we are killed every day; we are being slaughtered like sheep.”) 37 No, despite all these things, overwhelming victory is ours through Christ, who loved us.

38 And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love. 39 No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[RJ]

Deuteronomy 31:6 Be strong and courageous. Do not be afraid or terrified because of them, for the LORD your God goes with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you."
Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
John 6:17 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away
John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

If these are in fact the word of God and God never lies, please tell me how a true "Born Again" Christian can loose their salvation?

 

[Curtis]

1Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

We do not belong to our self's any longer, as we are the property of God. When I was growing up I never told my parents to punish me when I did wrong. They did it whether I wanted it or not!!
If we go astray you can bet your life God will correct, punish, and chastise us whither we want it or not. We have no say so in the matter. Do not think for one minute that God does not know what "buttons" to push to get us back inline.

Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

 

[B-A-C]

Hebrews 6:4; For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Hebrews 6:5; and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Hebrews 6:6; and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame.

Notice verse 4 says these people have already been enlightened. They have already been partakers of the Holy Spirit.
Can a non-believer be enlightened and partake of the Holy Spirit?

Matt 5:13; “You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how will it be made salty again? It is good for nothing anymore, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.
Can a non-believer be the salt of the earth? If it's only believers, can they become tasteless?

Heb 10:26; For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27; but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
Heb 10:28; Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
Heb 10:29; How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30; For we know Him who said, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY.” And again, “THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE.”
Heb 10:31; It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Can a non-believer have the Spirit of grace? Can a non-believer be sanctified by the blood of the covenant?
Is it possible for people who never had the Spirit and the covenant to trampled them under their feet?

Rev 3:4; ‘But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white; for they are worthy.
Rev 3:5; ‘He who overcomes shall thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels.
Is it possible for a believer to become soiled? ( also see Heb 12:15; ) Aren't unbelievers already soiled?
Can they become more soiled than they already are? If it isn't possible to be removed from the book of life, why are we warned
in verse 5 above?

Luke 8:11; “Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.
Luke 8:12; “And those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they may not believe and be saved.
Luke 8:13; “And those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
Verse 13 above says... "they believe for a while". Can a non-believer believe for a while? How long is a while?

1 Tim 4:1; But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
1 Tim 4:2; by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,
Can someone fall away from a faith they never had in the first place? Can an unbeliever fall away? (aren't they
already fallen away?)

All of these passages are talking about believers... there are more...

 

[B-A-C]

God will never leave or forsake us... it's true.
No one is able to pluck us from His hand... it's true.
Nothing can separate us from His love... it's true.

But none of those verses say we can't walk away from Him, none say we can't forsake Him.

 

[Curtis]

Hebrews 6:4; For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Hebrews 6:5; and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Hebrews 6:6; and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame.

Notice verse 4 says these people have already been enlightened. They have already been partakers of the Holy Spirit.
Can a non-believer be enlightened and partake of the Holy Spirit?

What happens when a unsaved person goes to a Church where the Anointing of God is, and the rain of the Holy Spirit is falling upon all that are there. God is no respecter of persons and he allows the "rain" to fall on the just, and unjust.(Matt 5:45) What exactly is happening to this unsaved person? They are "tasting" the good Word of God. They are becoming enlightened to the way of salvation. They becoming partakers of the Holy Spirit that is falling on all that are there.. They are "tasting" of the power of the world to come. How else do you suppose God draws people to himself? If they do not yield to what they are experiencing in this service, God has nothing more to give them as proof of his existence!!!! Then it would be "impossible" to renew them to repentance as there nothing more to give them.

If you read the next verse Paul enplanes what he is talking about with these verses.

Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

The "rain" of the Holy Spirit is always good. What determines a Christian from a non Christian is the "seed" that is being watered. If it is good seed it will produce good fruit, if it is "bad "seed it only produces "thorns" which is thrown into the fire to be burned.

 

[B-A-C]

If you read the next verse Paul enplanes what he is talking about with these verses.

Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

The "rain" of the Holy Spirit is always good. What determines a Christian from a non Christian is the "seed" that is being watered. If it is good seed it will produce good fruit, if it is "bad "seed it only produces "thorns" which is thrown into the fire to be burned.

Exactly!! Paul is saying they have "soaked up" the Word, the Spirit, the enlightenment... but even though
they've had this in them (for who knows how long.. differing amounts of time).. they still eventually bear
bad fruit.

 

[Curtis]

Exactly!! Paul is saying they have "soaked up" the Word, the Spirit, the enlightenment... but even though
they've had this in them (for who knows how long.. differing amounts of time).. they still eventually bear
bad fruit.

The very first fruit that is produced in the life of someone who "kept" the Word in them is the "New Birth"

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

A good tree can NEVER produce bad fruit, neither can a bad ever produce good fruit.

Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

 

[Curtis]

Exactly!! Paul is saying they have "soaked up" the Word, the Spirit, the enlightenment... but even though
they've had this in them (for who knows how long.. differing amounts of time).. they still eventually bear
bad fruit.

Refer to the parable of the "sower". The only person who benefited from the Word of God is the one who heard it and and understood it, which brought forth fruit. All the other people never received salvation, and only endured for a while and then eventually fell away, and never produced any fruit. We find all these kinds of people in the Churches today!

 

[B-A-C]

A good tree can NEVER produce bad fruit, neither can a bad ever produce good fruit.

Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

On this point we agree.. so I will leave it there.
I will add however, that there is a third type of tree. ( Luke 13:6-9; )
It doesn't bear good fruit.. or bad fruit.. it simply bears no fruit.
Even though the master waters and fertilizes it. ( also see Rev 3:15-16; )

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

it is amazing the back flips and gymnastics that people will do in order to twist and change the clear meaning of a scripture in order to appease their human doctrines.

Let's just go through each of these things, one at a time...


BRIGHTHOUSE...

1) The parable of the sower... there is a seed that grows for a while, but then the sun hits it and is scorched. Jesus says this is the person who believes for a while and then falls away. Certainly, if the believer would have kept believing, he would have been saved. But he does not, and is not. He lost his salvation.

2) Jesus told one man that all he had to do was believe, but he told another man that he had to sell all of his possessions. Obviously, Jesus tells each person a different message that is appropriate for each person.

3) you have said rightly...if a person stops believing and producing fruit, then they stop being saved.



CHAD...

1) they went out from us... so they were at one time inside of us... these are those who believe for a while, repent for a while, have The Holy Spirit for a while.... yet fall away, proving they were never really of us.


RJ....

1) The promises of God are conditional upon our loving obedience to Him. He will never forsake us or cast us out, as long as we embrace Him.

"When I say to the righteous he will surely live, and he so trusts in his righteousness that he commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds will be remembered; but in that same iniquity of his which he has committed he will die...When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, then he shall die in it" Ezekiel 33: 13, 18


CURTIS.....

1) lets take a look at this scripture ...

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." Hebrews 6:4-6

Now, the obvious, clear, plain meaning of this scripture is that there are people who have been enlightened (received, believed, and understood the Gospel), and have tasted the heavenly gift (have personally experienced the love of Jesus), and have partook of The Holy Spirit (have been filled with The Holy Spirit), and have learned of God's wisdom, mercy, and grace through the Bible (tasted the good word of God), and have been given the spiritual gifts (tasted the powers of the world to come).... there are such people who will fall away from the faith and will not be saved. and for such people, it is impossible to renew them to repentance.

Now, lets think about this.... "renew to repentance"... can we renew repentance if there never was any? Obviously, this person not only believed the Gospel (were enlightened) and had The Holy Spirit inside of them (partook of The Holy Spirit), but they also were walking out and living in a state of repentance from sin and obedience to God.

and this passage is saying that for such people, they cannot be brought back to salvation.

 

[Curtis]

On this point we agree.. so I will leave it there.
I will add however, that there is a third type of tree. ( Luke 13:6-9; )
It doesn't bear good fruit.. or bad fruit.. it simply bears no fruit.
Even though the master waters and fertilizes it. ( also see Rev 3:15-16; )

This true, which is why every branch that does not bear fruit is cut off and cast into the fire.
Also I would say, that a tree that never produces any fruit would be a person who goes to Church their entire life, and never gets saved, but they think they are!. How tragic is that?

 

[Curtis]

. there are such people who will fall away from the faith and will not be saved. and for such people, it is impossible to renew them to repentance.

There might be one problem with kind of thinking as scripture tells that if we are "faithless" God remain faithful, for he con not deny himself.

2Tim 2:13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful— for he cannot deny himself.

Can a man who has a physical father ever deny his physical father? He can try and deny him but that will change the fact.

 

[Ophel]

Not right.

It is impossible to renew people who fall away to a new form of repentance. There is only one way to Christ. Those who fall away have no other recourse but to come back to God the same way they came to Him in the first place.

Yes, no more sacrifice other than Jesus' sacrifice.

There is no other way except through Jesus Christ.

You have no true hope or assurance, do you? You misinterpret Hebrews 6:6.

Those who are truly saved---not believing in vain---are saved, for God is faithful, even though we are not. I suppose you disregard the story of the Prodigal Son.

 

[Curtis]

Now, the obvious, clear, plain meaning of this scripture is that there are people who have been enlightened (received, believed, and understood the Gospel), and have tasted the heavenly gift (have personally experienced the love of Jesus), and have partook of The Holy Spirit (have been filled with The Holy Spirit), and have learned of God's wisdom, mercy, and grace through the Bible (tasted the good word of God), and have been given the spiritual gifts (tasted the powers of the world to come).... there are such people who will fall away from the faith and will not be saved. and for such people, it is impossible to renew them to repentance.

Now, lets think about this.... "renew to repentance"... can we renew repentance if there never was any? Obviously, this person not only believed the Gospel (were enlightened) and had The Holy Spirit inside of them (partook of The Holy Spirit), but they also were walking out and living in a state of repentance from sin and obedience to God.

and this passage is saying that for such people, they cannot be brought back to salvation.

Another problem with this kind of thinking is that once the "seed" of the Word of God produces it first fruit, which is "being born again of the incorruptible seed of the Word of God" that fruit which is produced can NEVER produce bad fruit. The Word (seed) will continually produce good fruit as Jesus tells us here.

Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Who produces this fruit? Not man, but the seed which is the Word of God. Who is in charge of our salvation, once a man asks Jesus Christ to be his Lord, and savior? man or God?

Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

 

[RJ]

Another problem with this kind of thinking is that once the "seed" of the Word of God produces it first fruit, which is "being born again of the incorruptible seed of the Word of God" that fruit which is produced can NEVER produce bad fruit. The Word (seed) will continually produce good fruit as Jesus tells us here.

I really like this! Being "Born Again", God infusing the spirit of his son inside you is indeed the first fruit and a work in you. This is the only work in you that is the ultimate proof your faith is alive!
Also, once this seed is inside you and because one, God said he would never leave you and, two, Jesus said he would never lose you, there is no such thing as a true "Born Again" Christian "falling away"!