Born again and Baptism, What's the connection?

[Born Again 2004]

Butch..you continue to amaze. But for the sack of Lacawar (which my post was meant for) , I must comment on several things:
1. GOD says he is spirit; someday soon we will be spirit. His realm is the spirit realm....the Kingdom of God is the same as Heaven.
2. Nicodemus would never be in the Kingdom of God, unless (according to the Old Covenant, he was perfect with All the comandments), which he wasn't....Jesus was the only perfect one!
3. Nicodemus could never enter the Kingdom without being Born Again
4. "Being Born Again" is not a Metaphor....it is REAL!

 

[Butch5]

Butch..you continue to amaze. But for the sack of Lacawar (which my post was meant for) , I must comment on several things:
1. GOD says he is spirit; someday soon we will be spirit. His realm is the spirit realm....the Kingdom of God is the same as Heaven.
2. Nicodemus would never be in the Kingdom of God, unless (according to the Old Covenant, he was perfect with All the comandments), which he wasn't....Jesus was the only perfect one!
3. Nicodemus could never enter the Kingdom without being Born Again
4. "Being Born Again" is not a Metaphor....it is REAL!

I was responding to your post to me.

1. There is absolutely nothing in Scripture that says man is or will be a spirit. Actually, Jesus confirms this.

Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. (Lk. 24:39 KJV)

Jesus said a breath (spirit) does not have flesh and bones. Jesus wasn't a spirit and neither are we.

2 Nicodemus was in the Kingdom. Jesus said the Kingdom would taken away from the Jews.

42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (Matt. 21:42-43 KJV)

3 See above.

4. The phrase "born again" is a metaphor for the resurrection

 

[Born Again 2004]

I give up you are hopelessly confused but I will respond to the most ridiculous:
1. Man can be spiit.
1 Corinthians 6:19
Colossians 1:26-27

 

[Butch5]

I give up you are hopelessly confused but I will respond to the most ridiculous:
1. Man can be spiit.
1 Corinthians 6:19
Colossians 1:26-27

Neither of these say man is a spirit. I posted the passage from Jesus. He said a spirit does not have flesh and bone. Man has flesh and bone, thus man is not a spirit.

 

[Born Again 2004]

There is no end to your lack of knowing:
After his resurrection, how did he just appear with the Disciples when the door was closed.
Genesis 2:7
When you die and Jesus is I you, you enter Heaven, with out Jesus in you, you are a goat and go to Hell.
Job 32: 8
Proverbs 20:27
1 Corinthians 6:17

 

[Butch5]

There is no end to your lack of knowing:
After his resurrection, how did he just appear with the Disciples when the door was closed.
Genesis 2:7
When you die and Jesus is I you, you enter Heaven, with out Jesus in you, you are a goat and go to Hell.

We're not told how that happened. However, I don't think it would difficult for the Father to do.

There's nothing in Scripture that teaches that people go to Heaven. When people die they go to the grave, Hades.

 

[Born Again 2004]

Goodbye my friend...bless you and your understanding! HOPE to see you in Heaven soon.

 

[Butch5]

Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you. (Jn. 13:33 KJV)

 

[CareGiver]

We're not told how that happened. However, I don't think it would difficult for the Father to do.

There's nothing in Scripture that teaches that people go to Heaven. When people die they go to the grave, Hades.

Believers that are born of GOD do not die. Jesus Christ did away with death for believers that are born of His Spirit. Risen (born again) believers "fall asleep" when we "put off" our earthen tabernacle and ascend with the Lord. Believers that are born of GOD are one with the Son of GOD and GOD the Father (Who is Eternal Life). As we know, it is appointed unto man to die once,...... but, Jesus Christ died for all mankind, was raised back to life, and ascended into Heaven. Then He descended on Pentecost as a quickening Spirit, so that those who are born of GOD by being one with His Spirit are one with Him in His death and raised to life in His resurrection with Him Who is alive forevermore. The righteousness of Christ is imputed unto us by being one with the Spirit of Jesus Christ Who is alive forevermore. Our life is hidden with Christ in GOD, and are alive forevermore as Christ lives in us.

The following is hard to understand and explain, but here is what we are dealing with:
(1) Israelites being members of the good olive tree were born holy by the Spirit of Christ (not Jesus Christ) being in them as as descendant of Israel (Jacob).
Those who were followers of the Law (before converting to Christ) were righteous, in that their heart was circumcised of the flesh by living in the Spirit.
Those whose heart was "circumcised" by the Spirit as a follower of the righteousness of the Law were saved by being quickened together with the Spirit of Christ within them.
They were then conformed to a likeness of Jesus Christ and HIS death as their old man was spiritually crucified to destroy the body of sin. They were justified and born of GOD and IN Christ by being baptized with the Spirit of Jesus Christ into Christ Jesus and His death, and raised up together incorruptible as a son of Israel and heir of GOD. They went on to put on immortality and perfection when they were sanctified completely by being anointed with the Holy Spirit of GOD the Father.

(2) Gentiles being without Christ were justified THROUGH faith as they put off the sins of the flesh and put on Christ by walking with the Spirit. They were being saved, being cleansed, being justified and regenerated as they were cleansed of unrighteousness by Christ being formed in them. They were saved by being quickened together WITH Christ by receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost when they were forgiven of all trespasses by repenting and confessing their sins. Their "old man" was then spiritually crucified WITH Christ to destroy the body of sin as they were conformed to a likeness of Jesus Christ and His death to be baptized with the Spirit of Jesus Christ into Jesus Christ and His death and raised incorruptible, born of GOD as a son of Israel and heir of GOD. They too went on to perfection when sanctified completely by being anointed with the Holy Spirit of GOD the Father.

(3) Children of parents having the Spirit of Jesus Christ in them were born holy after being anointed with the Spirit of Jesus Christ within the parents at conception. The child born holy with the Spirit of Jesus Christ in them (whether child, adolescent, adult, or senior) had the right to become a child of GOD. They were saved, sealed, and justified as a child of GOD by being quickened together with the Spirit of Jesus Christ within them when they were forgiven of all trespasses by confessing their sins and walking with the Spirit to become a doer of righteousness.
When they overcame the world (lust of flesh, lust of eye, pride of life) by Jesus Christ being formed in them, they were baptized with the Holy Spirit of GOD to be a son and heir of GOD in the Kingdom of GOD with their name secured in the book of life to go out no more.

We do not believe this is without error, but gives an overall perspective of what the Bible means in respect to salvation and resurrection.

This is why Romans 6:3-7 pertains to Gentiles being conformed to a likeness of His death as the "old man" is spiritually crucified to destroy the body of sin to be baptized with the Spirit INTO Christ Jesus and His death, and raised incorruptible as a son of Israel and heir of GOD.

This is why believers, whether Gentile or Israelite was not born of GOD and justified IN Christ, until their heart was "circumcised" by putting off the sins of the flesh.

This is why a "Jew" (whose heart was circumcised by the Spirit as a follower of the Law) was saved by being baptized with water.

A thought, is the scripture pertaining to salvation in the letters of Paul and Peter, as pertinent today as are the writings of John to those anointed with the Spirit of Jesus Christ at conception.

We believe we can explain this with greater detail with Scripture (and hope to), but this much should help to make things more clear.

And this is also why it is time for those having the Spirit of Jesus Christ within them that are living in sin to repent and overcome the world if they want to be saved and become an heir of GOD.

When people see,.......<THE BEAST THAT WAS-those in America today, who once lived in sin as a beast somewhere in time and died>, <AND IS NOT A BEAST - born with the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ in them by being anointed with the Spirit at conception>, AND YET IS A BEAST by lusting after a sinful world, even though the Holy Spirit of the Son and GOD is in them.

These "dead in Christ " (1 Thessalonians 4:16) can repent and rise to be saved from death, to be sons and heirs of GOD in the Kingdom of GOD with their name in the book of life.

It's after 3:30 AM and I've got to get some sleep. We'll keep trying to clarify this to restore the sound doctrine for a unity of faith, and to bring believers into the Kingdom of GOD.

May GOD bless,

In the name of the Lord Jesus,.......

 

[Butch5]

Believers that are born of GOD do not die. Jesus Christ did away with death for believers that are born of His Spirit. Risen (born again) believers "fall asleep" when we "put off" our earthen tabernacle and ascend with the Lord. Believers that are born of GOD are one with the Son of GOD and GOD the Father (Who is Eternal Life). As we know, it is appointed unto man to die once,...... but, Jesus Christ died for all mankind, was raised back to life, and ascended into Heaven. Then He descended on Pentecost as a quickening Spirit, so that those who are born of GOD by being one with His Spirit are one with Him in His death and raised to life in His resurrection with Him Who is alive forevermore. The righteousness of Christ is imputed unto us by being one with the Spirit of Jesus Christ Who is alive forevermore. Our life is hidden with Christ in GOD, and are alive forevermore as Christ lives in us.

The following is hard to understand and explain, but here is what we are dealing with:
(1) Israelites being members of the good olive tree were born holy by the Spirit of Christ (not Jesus Christ) being in them as as descendant of Israel (Jacob).
Those who were followers of the Law (before converting to Christ) were righteous, in that their heart was circumcised of the flesh by living in the Spirit.
Those whose heart was "circumcised" by the Spirit as a follower of the righteousness of the Law were saved by being quickened together with the Spirit of Christ within them.
They were then conformed to a likeness of Jesus Christ and HIS death as their old man was spiritually crucified to destroy the body of sin. They were justified and born of GOD and IN Christ by being baptized with the Spirit of Jesus Christ into Christ Jesus and His death, and raised up together incorruptible as a son of Israel and heir of GOD. They went on to put on immortality and perfection when they were sanctified completely by being anointed with the Holy Spirit of GOD the Father.

(2) Gentiles being without Christ were justified THROUGH faith as they put off the sins of the flesh and put on Christ by walking with the Spirit. They were being saved, being cleansed, being justified and regenerated as they were cleansed of unrighteousness by Christ being formed in them. They were saved by being quickened together WITH Christ by receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost when they were forgiven of all trespasses by repenting and confessing their sins. Their "old man" was then spiritually crucified WITH Christ to destroy the body of sin as they were conformed to a likeness of Jesus Christ and His death to be baptized with the Spirit of Jesus Christ into Jesus Christ and His death and raised incorruptible, born of GOD as a son of Israel and heir of GOD. They too went on to perfection when sanctified completely by being anointed with the Holy Spirit of GOD the Father.

(3) Children of parents having the Spirit of Jesus Christ in them were born holy after being anointed with the Spirit of Jesus Christ within the parents at conception. The child born holy with the Spirit of Jesus Christ in them (whether child, adolescent, adult, or senior) had the right to become a child of GOD. They were saved, sealed, and justified as a child of GOD by being quickened together with the Spirit of Jesus Christ within them when they were forgiven of all trespasses by confessing their sins and walking with the Spirit to become a doer of righteousness.
When they overcame the world (lust of flesh, lust of eye, pride of life) by Jesus Christ being formed in them, they were baptized with the Holy Spirit of GOD to be a son and heir of GOD in the Kingdom of GOD with their name secured in the book of life to go out no more.

We do not believe this is without error, but gives an overall perspective of what the Bible means in respect to salvation and resurrection.

This is why Romans 6:3-7 pertains to Gentiles being conformed to a likeness of His death as the "old man" is spiritually crucified to destroy the body of sin to be baptized with the Spirit INTO Christ Jesus and His death, and raised incorruptible as a son of Israel and heir of GOD.

This is why believers, whether Gentile or Israelite was not born of GOD and justified IN Christ, until their heart was "circumcised" by putting off the sins of the flesh.

This is why a "Jew" (whose heart was circumcised by the Spirit as a follower of the Law) was saved by being baptized with water.

A thought, is the scripture pertaining to salvation in the letters of Paul and Peter, as pertinent today as are the writings of John to those anointed with the Spirit of Jesus Christ at conception.

We believe we can explain this with greater detail with Scripture (and hope to), but this much should help to make things more clear.

And this is also why it is time for those having the Spirit of Jesus Christ within them that are living in sin to repent and overcome the world if they want to be saved and become an heir of GOD.

When people see,.......<THE BEAST THAT WAS-those in America today, who once lived in sin as a beast somewhere in time and died>, <AND IS NOT A BEAST - born with the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ in them by being anointed with the Spirit at conception>, AND YET IS A BEAST by lusting after a sinful world, even though the Holy Spirit of the Son and GOD is in them.

These "dead in Christ " (1 Thessalonians 4:16) can repent and rise to be saved from death, to be sons and heirs of GOD in the Kingdom of GOD with their name in the book of life.

It's after 3:30 AM and I've got to get some sleep. We'll keep trying to clarify this to restore the sound doctrine for a unity of faith, and to bring believers into the Kingdom of GOD.

May GOD bless,

In the name of the Lord Jesus,.......

Hi CareGiver,

I'm going to have to disagree with a good bit of what you said here. Firstly I don't think you can show a lot this from Scripture. We do know that believers die. That happens every day. There is a history of martyrs in the Church. If believers didn't die there wouldn't be this history. Secondly, I have to disagree that people go to be with the Lord at death. To make such a claim one would have to establish, from Scripture, not opinion, that man can live apart from the body. Gen 2:7 tells us how God created man. The only breath or spirit that God put into man is the breath or spirit of life , and that is something of God, not man. I've already given the words of Jesus saying that the Jews nor the disciples could go where He was going. We know He was going to the Father in Heaven. So, people can't go there. Paul too tells us that man isn't alive after death when he writes to the Corinthians telling them that if there is no resurrection, those who had died in Christ had perished. If they were alive and in Heaven Paul couldn't make such a statement.

Concerning Israel, I don't see anything in Scripture about them being filled with the spirit of Christ at birth or about them being baptized into Christ. Regarding Romans 6:3-7, if you look at the passage in context Paul is addressing the Jews at Rome in this section. He opens his letter to the Church in general. At chapter 2:17 he begins to address the Jews in the Church. He continues this discourse through to chapter 11:13 where he turns his attention to the Gentiles and begins addressing them. You said the passage refers to the Gentiles but it's being addressed to the Jews.

The "quickening" that is spoken of in Scripture refers to the resurrection unless it is used figuratively. No one has been resurrected to eternal life yet except Jesus.

It seems to me that there is a lot of Dualism in your post. The Bible doesn't teach Dualism, it teaches Monism. It was the Greek philosophers who held to Dualism. Dualism is the idea that man is a spirit living in a disposable body. This concept isn't taught in Scripture. The only hope of an afterlife in the Scriptures is the Resurrection.

 

[Trevor]

Hi Caregiver,

I'm going to have to disagree with a good bit of what you said here. Firstly I don't think you can show a lot this from Scripture. We do know that believers die. That happens every day. There is a history of martyrs in the Church. If believers didn't die there wouldn't be this history. Secondly, I have to disagree that people go to be with the Lord at death. To make such a claim one would have to establish, from Scripture, not opinion, that man can live apart from the body. Gen 2:7 tells us how God created man. The only breath or spirit that God put into man is the breath or spirit of life , and that is something of God, not man. I've already given the words of Jesus saying that the Jews nor the disciples could go where He was going. We know He was going to the Father in Heaven. So, people can't go there. Paul too tells us that man isn't alive after death when he writes to the Corinthians telling them that if there is no resurrection, those who had died in Christ had perished. If they were alive and in Heaven Paul couldn't make such a statement.

Concerning Israel, I don't see anything in Scripture about them being filled with the spirit of Christ at birth or about them being baptized into Christ. Regarding Romans 6:3-7, if you look at the passage in context Paul is addressing the Jews at Rome in this section. He opens his letter to the Church in general. At chapter 2:17 he begins to address the Jews in the Church. He continues this discourse through to chapter 11:13 where he turns his attention to the Gentiles and begins addressing them. You said the passage refers to the Gentiles but it's being addressed to the Jews.

The "quickening" that is spoken of in Scripture refers to the resurrection unless it is used figuratively. No one has been resurrected to eternal life yet except Jesus.

It seems to me that there is a lot of Dualism in your post. The Bible doesn't teach Dualism, it teaches Monism. It was the Greek philosophers who held to Dualism. Dualism is the idea that man is a spirit living in a disposable body. This concept isn't taught in Scripture. The only hope of an afterlife in the Scriptures is the Resurrection.

Hi Butch. You say quote: I have to disagree that people go to be with the Lord at death, to make such a claim, one would have to establish from scripture, not opinion, that man can live apart from the body.
Luke 23:43. Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise". Bless you.

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch. You say quote: I have to disagree that people go to be with the Lord at death, to make such a claim, one would have to establish from scripture, not opinion, that man can live apart from the body.
Luke 23:43. Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise". Bless you.

Hi Trevor,

I'm familiar with this passage and would address it this way. Firstly, the passage doesn't say they would be alive. I think people assume that Jesus was alive and since He said the thief would be with Him that the thief would be alive also. However, we know that Jesus died on the cross that day. So we're right back at the beginning. We have to show that Jesus was alive apart from the body.

However, there is also a grammatical argument. In the original text there is no punctuation. That has been added by the translators and placed where they think it should be. We have to remember though that where they think it should go is based on what the believe. Most place the comma before the word today as we see here,

And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." (Lk. 23:43 NKJ)

However, the comma can also, be placed after the word today, as we have here,

And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise."

As you can see, simply moving the comma from before to after the word today changes the entire meaning of the sentence. We go from them being in Paradise that day to them simply being in Paradise at some point in time. There is also the context of the statement consider. The thief asked Jesus to remember him when Jesus came into His Kingdom. In reply Jesus spoke of Paradise. Many claim that Paradise is a place in or associated with Hades where the dead go. Is Jesus' Kingdom in Hades? There's nothing in Scripture to suggest that. The word Paradise has been transliterated rather than translated. It literally means a garden. Jesus told the thief that he would be with Him in the Garden. What garden would be associated with the Jesus' Kingdom? I would submit that it is the one mentioned in Revelation.

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. (Rev. 2:7 KJV)

I would submit that it is the restored Garden of Eden.

The grammatical argument shows that the translation is driven by beliefs. The comma can be placed either before or after the word today, each one is grammatically correct. So, the translation comes down to what the translator believes.. There's also an argument for the way Jesus uses the term in other places, that however, would entail more time to go through. If you are interested I can get that info.

Either way I would submit that this passage doesn't support the idea that man can live apart from the body. That idea has to be assumed coming to the text. I've looked at this long and hard and have looked at the various texts, the thief, Paul's "absent from the body" statement, Jesus' "God is the God of the living statement", the souls under the altar, and more. When they are examined closely and in context it becomes apparent that they are not saying what many claim they say. Take Paul's "absent from the body" statement for instance. The claim is that Paul is saying that when one dies some part of them is present with the Lord. Yet that very passage in context is arguing against that very idea. The passage in context is speaking of the resurrection. In the passage Paul equates departing the body ( Greek Philosophy) as being found naked and says the doesn't want to be found naked. Rather, he want's his mortality, to be swallowed up by immortality.

 

[Trevor]

Hi Trevor,

I'm familiar with this passage and would address it this way. Firstly, the passage doesn't say they would be alive. I think people assume that Jesus was alive and since He said the thief would be with Him that the thief would be alive also. However, we know that Jesus died on the cross that day. So we're right back at the beginning. We have to show that Jesus was alive apart from the body.

However, there is also a grammatical argument. In the original text there is no punctuation. That has been added by the translators and placed where they think it should be. We have to remember though that where they think it should go is based on what the believe. Most place the comma before the word today as we see here,

And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." (Lk. 23:43 NKJ)

However, the comma can also, be placed after the word today, as we have here,

And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise."

As you can see, simply moving the comma from before to after the word today changes the entire meaning of the sentence. We go from them being in Paradise that day to them simply being in Paradise at some point in time. There is also the context of the statement consider. The thief asked Jesus to remember him when Jesus came into His Kingdom. In reply Jesus spoke of Paradise. Many claim that Paradise is a place in or associated with Hades where the dead go. Is Jesus' Kingdom in Hades? There's nothing in Scripture to suggest that. The word Paradise has been transliterated rather than translated. It literally means a garden. Jesus told the thief that he would be with Him in the Garden. What garden would be associated with the Jesus' Kingdom? I would submit that it is the one mentioned in Revelation.

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. (Rev. 2:7 KJV)

I would submit that it is the restored Garden of Eden.

The grammatical argument shows that the translation is driven by beliefs. The comma can be placed either before or after the word today, each one is grammatically correct. So, the translation comes down to what the translator believes.. There's also an argument for the way Jesus uses the term in other places, that however, would entail more time to go through. If you are interested I can get that info.

Either way I would submit that this passage doesn't support the idea that man can live apart from the body. That idea has to be assumed coming to the text. I've looked at this long and hard and have looked at the various texts, the thief, Paul's "absent from the body" statement, Jesus' "God is the God of the living statement", the souls under the altar, and more. When they are examined closely and in context it becomes apparent that they are not saying what many claim they say. Take Paul's "absent from the body" statement for instance. The claim is that Paul is saying that when one dies some part of them is present with the Lord. Yet that very passage in context is arguing against that very idea. The passage in context is speaking of the resurrection. In the passage Paul equates departing the body ( Greek Philosophy) as being found naked and says the doesn't want to be found naked. Rather, he want's his mortality, to be swallowed up by immortality.

With all due respect Butch, we can't go around moving commas in the word of God otherwise we could end up with a completely different book that no-one could rely on. We have to believe that the translators were moved by the Spirit of God in what they translated otherwise we can all make it up as we go along. As for Jesus meaning; we are spiritual beings, we live in bodies of flesh. I believe that Jesus, when he said "today you will be with me in paradise" meant the spirt of the thief, not the flesh. Bless you

 

[B-A-C]

With all due respect Butch, we can't go around moving commas in the word of God otherwise we could end up with a completely different book that no-one could rely on.

I think that's the general idea.

 

[Trevor]

I think that's the general idea.

I believe you're right B-A-C, but whether the posters know that, or are under influences, who knows? As Bob Dylan says, " you've got serve somebody, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord, but you've got to serve somebody". bless you.

 

[Butch5]

With all due respect Butch, we can't go around moving commas in the word of God otherwise we could end up with a completely different book that no-one could rely on. We have to believe that the translators were moved by the Spirit of God in what they translated otherwise we can all make it up as we go along. As for Jesus meaning; we are spiritual beings, we live in bodies of flesh. I believe that Jesus, when he said "today you will be with me in paradise" meant the spirt of the thief, not the flesh. Bless you

Hi Trevor,

Why can't we move the comma. It's not in the original text. It's not in God's word. It something the translators added. It's not original. That means we have to consider whether or not the translators are correct. That leads to your statement that we have to believe the translators were moved by the Spirit of God. Why do we have to believe that? There are over 5000 Greek texts available and no two are identical . If they were moved by God shouldn't they read alike? If the Greek texts don't read alike why we expect the English texts to? If they did it would seem like a coordinated effort. I've been down that road of accepting things because someone said so. It lead to great error. Now I don't accept what people say unless it can be supported from Scripture. To say the thief was alive as a spirit later that day day, for one thing, doesn't address the context. The thief didn't ask Jesus where he be later that afternoon. He wanted to be in the Kingdom. Telling him he'd be alive later that afternoon doesn't address his request or the context. Here's another point. You suggested that we understand that the translators were moved by the Spirit of God. If that is the case then whey have they mistranslated certain passages of Scripture? Here is an example from 1 Peter.

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. (1 Pet. 1:1-2 KJV)

The KJV and others read this way. It say elect according to the foreknowledge of God. This passage is popular among the Reformed. Calvinists use this passage to claim that people are elected before the foundation of the world based on God's knowing them before hand. However, that's not what the Greek text says,

Πέτρος, ἀπόστολος Ἰησοῦ χριστοῦ, ἐκλεκτοῖς παρεπιδήμοις διασπορᾶς Πόντου, Γαλατίας, Καππαδοκίας, Ἀσίας, καὶ Βιθυνίας,
2 κατὰ πρόγνωσιν θεοῦ πατρός, ἐν ἁγιασμῷ πνεύματος, εἰς ὑπακοὴν καὶ ῥαντισμὸν αἵματος Ἰησοῦ χριστοῦ· χάρις ὑμῖν καὶ εἰρήνη πληθυνθείη. (1 Pet. 1:1-2 BYZ)

Here is a more accurate reading of the Greek text.

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the elect who are sojourners of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, (1 Pet. 1:1 ASV)

Peter didn't say they were elect according to the foreknowledge of God. He was addressing the elect sojourners of the Diaspora.

We have two different translations here. How could both be led of the Spirit when they say different things? ASV translation follows the Greek text, as you can see I highlighted the word elect in the Greek text, it's in verse one not two. The KJV reading fits Reformed theology better than the ASV reading. The Reformed translators translated it based on how they understood the Bible and they understood that God chose people before the foundation of the world. Here once again, just as with the thief on the cross, beliefs drive the translation. The Reformers did the same with Acts 13:48 where they translated the passage 'as many as believed were ordained to eternal life'. They did that even though the translation runs counter to the context and to what Paul said two verse prior. Their translation was driven by their beliefs.

Let's go back to the thief on the cross. To say he was alive as spirit after his body died, runs counter to what Paul said. Paul said to the Christians at Corinth, speaking of those who had died in Christ, if there is no resurrection they had perished. Paul certainly couldn't have said that if in fact Christians who died were spirits with Christ.

I figured you meant that it was the spirit of the thief that lived on. I specifically went the body route to make a point. Man is not a spirit. There is nothing in the Bible that teaches that man is a spirit. In Gen. 2:7 We're told how God made man. He created the man from the dust of the earth. So, man is dust or from the elements of the earth. God then breathed his breath or spirit (same word) into man and the man then transformed and became a living soul. So, we have man being formed from the elements of the earth, then we have God breathing something of Himself into man, the breath or spirit. It is this breath or spirit from God that gives man life. That's the creation of man and the only breath or spirit that we see put into him is something from God. It's not man, it's something of God. You'll see passages that take about the spirit in man etc. There is a spirit in man, it's God's. When Jesus appeared to the apostles on the boat He said, a spirit does not have flesh and bone. How can man be a spiritual being when he has flesh and bone and Jesus said a spirit does not have flesh and bone?

You said, "we are spiritual beings, we live in bodies of flesh." It sounds more like you're saying we are spirit beings. Spiritual is an adjective, it give qualities of something. A spiritual person is a person having qualities of the spirit. For instance the fruits of the spirit. To live without a body one would have to be a spirit being. It may seem trivial but it is an important distinction.

The study of what a man is is probably one of the most important studies one can do in the Bible. It forms the basis of so much of what we believe. If one believes man is a physical being infused with the breath of God it will lead one to certain interpretations. If one believes they are a spirit it will lead to a different set of interpretations. My study of what a man is, Scripturally, has been one of the most profound. Not only does it affect how I understand what we are, it also affects how I understand Jesus, and that has huge implications on our theology.

Our preconceptions make all the difference in the world.

 

[B-A-C]

There are over 5000 Greek texts available and no two are identical . If they were moved by God shouldn't they read alike? If the Greek texts don't read alike why we expect the English texts to? I

Where are you getting this info from? The vast majority are identical.

No Two Biblical Manuscripts Are The Same? Old and New Testament Evidence

Have you heard the oft-repeated assertion that "no two Biblical manuscripts are the same?" It is one of the most often-repeated arguments ...

kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com

Also while Hebrew didn't have punctuation. It did exist in Greek, even before the Bible was written.

 

[Trevor]

Hi Trevor,

Why can't we move the comma. It's not in the original text. It's not in God's word. It something the translators added. It's not original. That means we have to consider whether or not the translators are correct. That leads to your statement that we have to believe the translators were moved by the Spirit of God. Why do we have to believe that? There are over 5000 Greek texts available and no two are identical . If they were moved by God shouldn't they read alike? If the Greek texts don't read alike why we expect the English texts to? If they did it would seem like a coordinated effort. I've been down that road of accepting things because someone said so. It lead to great error. Now I don't accept what people say unless it can be supported from Scripture. To say the thief was alive as a spirit later that day day, for one thing, doesn't address the context. The thief didn't ask Jesus where he be later that afternoon. He wanted to be in the Kingdom. Telling him he'd be alive later that afternoon doesn't address his request or the context. Here's another point. You suggested that we understand that the translators were moved by the Spirit of God. If that is the case then whey have they mistranslated certain passages of Scripture? Here is an example from 1 Peter.

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. (1 Pet. 1:1-2 KJV)

The KJV and others read this way. It say elect according to the foreknowledge of God. This passage is popular among the Reformed. Calvinists use this passage to claim that people are elected before the foundation of the world based on God's knowing them before hand. However, that's not what the Greek text says,

Πέτρος, ἀπόστολος Ἰησοῦ χριστοῦ, ἐκλεκτοῖς παρεπιδήμοις διασπορᾶς Πόντου, Γαλατίας, Καππαδοκίας, Ἀσίας, καὶ Βιθυνίας,
2 κατὰ πρόγνωσιν θεοῦ πατρός, ἐν ἁγιασμῷ πνεύματος, εἰς ὑπακοὴν καὶ ῥαντισμὸν αἵματος Ἰησοῦ χριστοῦ· χάρις ὑμῖν καὶ εἰρήνη πληθυνθείη. (1 Pet. 1:1-2 BYZ)

Here is a more accurate reading of the Greek text.

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the elect who are sojourners of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, (1 Pet. 1:1 ASV)

Peter didn't say they were elect according to the foreknowledge of God. He was addressing the elect sojourners of the Diaspora.

We have two different translations here. How could both be led of the Spirit when they say different things? ASV translation follows the Greek text, as you can see I highlighted the word elect in the Greek text, it's in verse one not two. The KJV reading fits Reformed theology better than the ASV reading. The Reformed translators translated it based on how they understood the Bible and they understood that God chose people before the foundation of the world. Here once again, just as with the thief on the cross, beliefs drive the translation. The Reformers did the same with Acts 13:48 where they translated the passage 'as many as believed were ordained to eternal life'. They did that even though the translation runs counter to the context and to what Paul said two verse prior. Their translation was driven by their beliefs.

Let's go back to the thief on the cross. To say he was alive as spirit after his body died, runs counter to what Paul said. Paul said to the Christians at Corinth, speaking of those who had died in Christ, if there is no resurrection they had perished. Paul certainly couldn't have said that if in fact Christians who died were spirits with Christ.

I figured you meant that it was the spirit of the thief that lived on. I specifically went the body route to make a point. Man is not a spirit. There is nothing in the Bible that teaches that man is a spirit. In Gen. 2:7 We're told how God made man. He created the man from the dust of the earth. So, man is dust or from the elements of the earth. God then breathed his breath or spirit (same word) into man and the man then transformed and became a living soul. So, we have man being formed from the elements of the earth, then we have God breathing something of Himself into man, the breath or spirit. It is this breath or spirit from God that gives man life. That's the creation of man and the only breath or spirit that we see put into him is something from God. It's not man, it's something of God. You'll see passages that take about the spirit in man etc. There is a spirit in man, it's God's. When Jesus appeared to the apostles on the boat He said, a spirit does not have flesh and bone. How can man be a spiritual being when he has flesh and bone and Jesus said a spirit does not have flesh and bone?

You said, "we are spiritual beings, we live in bodies of flesh." It sounds more like you're saying we are spirit beings. Spiritual is an adjective, it give qualities of something. A spiritual person is a person having qualities of the spirit. For instance the fruits of the spirit. To live without a body one would have to be a spirit being. It may seem trivial but it is an important distinction.

The study of what a man is is probably one of the most important studies one can do in the Bible. It forms the basis of so much of what we believe. If one believes man is a physical being infused with the breath of God it will lead one to certain interpretations. If one believes they are a spirit it will lead to a different set of interpretations. My study of what a man is, Scripturally, has been one of the most profound. Not only does it affect how I understand what we are, it also affects how I understand Jesus, and that has huge implications on our theology.

Our preconceptions make all the difference in the world.

Hi Butch, I have been a Christian, first Philosophically and then as a born again believer for over fifty years, just before I gave my life to Jesus, after twenty years of believing in his philosophy, the Lord challenged me and told me I would find the truth In the written word, the bible. For over fifty years the scriptures have been my guide and through them, my life has totally changed, I have become a totally different person. Romans 1:21-25 this scripture speaks about changing God's truth into a lie. To believe that God would allow anyone to miss translate his word is to not give credence to his power or his love for the saints. Bless you.

 

[B-A-C]

I would find the truth In the written word, the bible. For over fifty years the scriptures have been my guide and through them, my life has totally changed,

Amen!

Besides, when someone changes the wording, meaning or punctuation in the Bible... because "your version" is wrong,
what make their version any more right or credible?

Isa 40:8; The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.

1 Pet 1:25; BUT THE WORD OF THE LORD ENDURES FOREVER." And this is the word which was preached to you.

Rev 22:18; I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;
Rev 22:19; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

 

[Butch5]

Amen!

Besides, when someone changes the wording, meaning or punctuation in the Bible... because "your version" is wrong,
what make their version any more right or credible?

Isa 40:8; The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.

1 Pet 1:25; BUT THE WORD OF THE LORD ENDURES FOREVER." And this is the word which was preached to you.

Rev 22:18; I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;
Rev 22:19; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.

But I've already shown where the translators changed the word of God. In 1Petrr 1:1-2 the translators rearranges the words to fit their beliefs. Is their translation right to wrong?


If you believe we should just accept the translation blindly let me ask a question. Do you accept the Jehovah Witness translation? Weren't they moved by the Spirit of God?.