Biblical Accuracy

[amadeus2]

Knowledge will pass away through reading. Revelation is eternal given only by God.

Yes, where or how does one obtain this revelation:

"And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecc 12:12

But this is not a condemnation of much study in every situation. Rather it is telling it how it is for our flesh alone. For this reason God has provided for us the Holy Spirit. Then we come to the other verse someone has already mentioned on this thread:

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." II Tim 2:15

If you read this second verse carefully you will see that the purpose of the study is not to learn, but to be "approved unto God". Oh we may learn as we read and study, but the reason is not due to our high IQ or good study habits , but rather because we have received the Holy Ghost and we are following the lead of the Holy Ghost rather than regularly quenching the Spirit in us.

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

 

[cfowen]

Yes, where or how does one obtain this revelation:

"And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecc 12:12

But this is not a condemnation of much study in every situation. Rather it is telling it how it is for our flesh alone. For this reason God has provided for us the Holy Spirit. Then we come to the other verse someone has already mentioned on this thread:

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." II Tim 2:15

If you read this second verse carefully you will see that the purpose of the study is not to learn, but to be "approved unto God". Oh we may learn as we read and study, but the reason is not due to our high IQ or good study habits , but rather because we have received the Holy Ghost and we are following the lead of the Holy Ghost rather than regularly quenching the Spirit in us.

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

In Jn 14:26, Christ, whose proclaimed ministry was 100% to Israel (Mt 10:5, 15:24, Rom 15:8, Jn 1:31), was talking ONLY to the 12 (11?), who, except for Peter, with Cornelius, NEVER ministered to a Gentile. Christ was talking about the Baptism of the HS at Pentecost, where only Jews were present. This promised indwelling was part of the gifts, which were a taste of Israel's New Covenant. Eight years later, the first Gentile was allowed into this assembly. This admittance of the Gentiles into the all-Israel assembly was possible only because every saved Gentile was grafted into Israel and, the only purpose of bringing in Gentiles was to provoke Israel to jealousy, so they might repent as a nation - Christ won't return until Israel accepts Him - Mt 23:39. Acts was technically 100% Israel. At the end of Acts, Israel was set aside, for non-belief, when Paul pronounced spiritual blindness on them, by quoting Isa 6:9-10, in Ac 28:25-27. Everything associated with Israel, like the gifts (the Comforter), the Acts Church, and the rapture, were also set aside at that time. John 14:26 does not apply today.

In 2Tim 2:15, the main thing is to rightly divide (correctly cut) God's Word of Truth. Only then will one be approved unto God. This is achieved by study. The context of that verse is vs 14 - not striving about words, vs 16 - profane and vain babblings. vs 18 - non-truths. All these things (lies) can only be solved by obeying 2Tim 2:15 and cutting just once after Acts, the only place in the Bible where it is 100% Israel on one side off the cut and 0% Israel on the other side. Then, eliminate everything from our doctrine that was given to Israel, on the Israel side of the cut, unless it specifically says it was given to us Gentiles, on the other side of the cut, which is composed only of Paul's 7 epistles written After Acts. Besides things like Deity, Christ, redemption, salvation, etc., NOTHING that Israel ever received was also given to us. We Gentiles have our own things, found ONLY in Eph, PHil, Col, 1&2Tim, Titus, and Phile. Our things are infinitely better that anything ever given to Israel. Search and see. For example, only the Gentiles in thise 7 books are said to have a calling of going to Heaven. No one else in the entire Bible EVER had a hope of Heaven. Search and see.

 

[amadeus2]

In Jn 14:26, Christ, whose proclaimed ministry was 100% to Israel (Mt 10:5, 15:24, Rom 15:8, Jn 1:31), was talking ONLY to the 12 (11?), who, except for Peter, with Cornelius, NEVER ministered to a Gentile. Christ was talking about the Baptism of the HS at Pentecost, where only Jews were present. This promised indwelling was part of the gifts, which were a taste of Israel's New Covenant. Eight years later, the first Gentile was allowed into this assembly. This admittance of the Gentiles into the all-Israel assembly was possible only because every saved Gentile was grafted into Israel and, the only purpose of bringing in Gentiles was to provoke Israel to jealousy, so they might repent as a nation - Christ won't return until Israel accepts Him - Mt 23:39. Acts was technically 100% Israel. At the end of Acts, Israel was set aside, for non-belief, when Paul pronounced spiritual blindness on them, by quoting Isa 6:9-10, in Ac 28:25-27. Everything associated with Israel, like the gifts (the Comforter), the Acts Church, and the rapture, were also set aside at that time. John 14:26 does not apply today.

In 2Tim 2:15, the main thing is to rightly divide (correctly cut) God's Word of Truth. Only then will one be approved unto God. This is achieved by study. The context of that verse is vs 14 - not striving about words, vs 16 - profane and vain babblings. vs 18 - non-truths. All these things (lies) can only be solved by obeying 2Tim 2:15 and cutting just once after Acts, the only place in the Bible where it is 100% Israel on one side off the cut and 0% Israel on the other side. Then, eliminate everything from our doctrine that was given to Israel, on the Israel side of the cut, unless it specifically says it was given to us Gentiles, on the other side of the cut, which is composed only of Paul's 7 epistles written After Acts. Besides things like Deity, Christ, redemption, salvation, etc., NOTHING that Israel ever received was also given to us. We Gentiles have our own things, found ONLY in Eph, PHil, Col, 1&2Tim, Titus, and Phile. Our things are infinitely better that anything ever given to Israel. Search and see. For example, only the Gentiles in thise 7 books are said to have a calling of going to Heaven. No one else in the entire Bible EVER had a hope of Heaven. Search and see.

It would seem that you have already decided and are simply making your declaration. That is your prerogative.

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2

Give God the glory!

 

[cfowen]

I was cut short by the ridiculous 30 minute edit time that only this forum seems to have. Here's the rest of my post.

Please note that I am talking to whoever happens to read this, not just yourself.

If you had known the absolute truth that the sole purpose of 2Tim 2:15 was to entice one to correctly cut God's word of truth, you might have already known all of this. Some believe that there are some internal indications that, if you don't latch on to Paul's Truth for Today, found only in his 7 after Acts books, and release from your mind all that stuff that Christendom has perennially stolen from Israel, that you'll never receive anyway, because it doesn't belong to you, you'll get neither and will end up on earth after being put through the White Throne Judgement. Why take a chance? After you're saved, the only beliefs that might change your final abode are the ones I just went over. What they're saying is, Heaven isn't automatic. You have to believe you're going to get it, based on the correct scripture, and also get rid of all the Jewish stuff that doesn't belong to you (see list). I've never quite decided on my own mind whether Heaven is automatic or not.. This is the only question I know of that has split A28D churches. This is important, so, even though I just posted this list in another thread, I'll post it again. I apologize for the redundancy.

You Don't Obey 2Tim 2:15 and Rightly Divide God's Word if You Believe Any of These Things

1- The Church has replaced Israel
2- The entire Bible is about us and is written directly TO us.
3- The Gospel taught by Jesus Christ takes precedent over everything else
4- The Great Commission is the marching order for the Church today
5- To be saved, we must be born again
6- The present day Church started with Christ's earthly ministry
7- The present day Church started at Pentecost, in Acts 2
8- The Church is True Israel
9- Christ's earthly ministry was to both Jews and Gentiles
10- Israel are still God's chosen people, during this 2000 year period we're now in.
11- The Kingdom of Heaven is the hope of the Church.
12- The New Covenant is in effect for the Gentile Church today
13- The Sermon on the Mount applies to us today.
14- The Lord's Prayer applies to us today.
15- The Lord's Supper applies to us today
16- Water Baptism applies to us today.
17- The Gifts of the Spirit, as given in Acts 2, are still applicable today
18- The 12 apostles witnessed daily to both Jews and Gentiles
19- The purpose of the Acts period was to build the Church
20- Today's Gentile Church will be taken up in the rapture.
21- Christ came to build a Church
22- We must obey the 10 Commandments
23- Abraham is the father of us all
24- The church today will reside in the New Jerusalem
25- The Church today is the Bride
26- We must still go to the Jew First
27- We must obey the 4 ordinances given to Gentiles in Acts 15
28- Christ could return at any moment
29- We saved Gentiles are Grafted into Israel
30- The New Jerusalem is the mother of us all.

 

[Sue D.]

I was cut short by the ridiculous 30 minute edit time that only this forum seems to have. Here's the rest of my post.

Please note that I am talking to whoever happens to read this, not just yourself.

If you had known the absolute truth that the sole purpose of 2Tim 2:15 was to entice one to correctly cut God's word of truth, you might have already known all of this. Some believe that there are some internal indications that, if you don't latch on to Paul's Truth for Today, found only in his 7 after Acts books, and release from your mind all that stuff that Christendom has perennially stolen from Israel, that you'll never receive anyway, because it doesn't belong to you, you'll get neither and will end up on earth after being put through the White Throne Judgement. Why take a chance? After you're saved, the only beliefs that might change your final abode are the ones I just went over. What they're saying is, Heaven isn't automatic. You have to believe you're going to get it, based on the correct scripture, and also get rid of all the Jewish stuff that doesn't belong to you (see list). I've never quite decided on my own mind whether Heaven is automatic or not.. This is the only question I know of that has split A28D churches. This is important, so, even though I just posted this list in another thread, I'll post it again. I apologize for the redundancy.

You Don't Obey 2Tim 2:15 and Rightly Divide God's Word if You Believe Any of These Things

1- The Church has replaced Israel
2- The entire Bible is about us and is written directly TO us.
3- The Gospel taught by Jesus Christ takes precedent over everything else
4- The Great Commission is the marching order for the Church today
5- To be saved, we must be born again
6- The present day Church started with Christ's earthly ministry
7- The present day Church started at Pentecost, in Acts 2
8- The Church is True Israel
9- Christ's earthly ministry was to both Jews and Gentiles
10- Israel are still God's chosen people, during this 2000 year period we're now in.
11- The Kingdom of Heaven is the hope of the Church.
12- The New Covenant is in effect for the Gentile Church today
13- The Sermon on the Mount applies to us today.
14- The Lord's Prayer applies to us today.
15- The Lord's Supper applies to us today
16- Water Baptism applies to us today.
17- The Gifts of the Spirit, as given in Acts 2, are still applicable today
18- The 12 apostles witnessed daily to both Jews and Gentiles
19- The purpose of the Acts period was to build the Church
20- Today's Gentile Church will be taken up in the rapture.
21- Christ came to build a Church
22- We must obey the 10 Commandments
23- Abraham is the father of us all
24- The church today will reside in the New Jerusalem
25- The Church today is the Bride
26- We must still go to the Jew First
27- We must obey the 4 ordinances given to Gentiles in Acts 15
28- Christ could return at any moment
29- We saved Gentiles are Grafted into Israel
30- The New Jerusalem is the mother of us all.

The New Jerusalem -- that which God Will bring down from heaven for His people to dwell in forever.

Christ Could return at any moment.

Obeying 4? ordinances will not gain anyone salvation. That would be a 'work'. Obeying the 10 Commandments won't gain salvation for anyone.

Yes, the Church Is the Bride of Christ.

All born-again believers Will be taken up in the rapture.

Water Baptism applies to born-again believers but does Not 'finish' a person's salvation.

The Church and Israel are Separate.

God has given the Bible / His Word / to Everyone.

 

[cfowen]

Sue D, said (in blue)

(1) The New Jerusalem -- that which God Will bring down from heaven for His people to dwell in forever.
The New Jerusalem is not Heaven. It is the prize calling for Israel from Gen 12 through the end of Acts. It will be attached to the New Earth - permanently, as far as we're told - therefore, it CAN'T be Heaven. The church today, found only in Paul's 7 post-Acts epistles, has a calling of the highest Heaven, where Christ now sits at the right hand of God - compare Eph 1:20 (Christ) with Eph 2:6 (Us). Also, there is Phil 3:20, "But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ" That IS NOT the New Jerusalem.

(2) Christ Could return at any moment.
In Mt 23:39, after Israel rejected Him, Christ said, "For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord." Also, before He comes, the following must happen in order. -
Ac 3:19-21,
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things,


(3 )Obeying 4? ordinances will not gain anyone salvation. That would be a 'work'. Obeying the 10 Commandments won't gain salvation for anyone.
The 10 commandments were part of Israel's Law and the Gentiles will never have to keep the Law. I agree with all you said, but the point is, that those 4 ordinances, along with all other ordinances, like water Baptism and the Lord's supper, are done away with in this present period of pure grace - Eph 2:15, Col 2:14, and:
Col 2:20
Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances

(4) Yes, the Church Is the Bride of Christ.
The all-Israel occupants of the New Jerusalem will be the Bride - Rev 21:9-10. This includes those saved Gentiles in the Acts church, which are all grafted into Israel. The present day Gentile Church, ONE NEW MAN, who actually make up Christ's body, Eph 5:30, For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones, where Christ is the actual Head, are the Bridegroom.

(5) All born-again believers Will be taken up in the rapture.
In John 3, we see that being born again is the ticket required for Israelites to enter the all Jewish earthly Kingdom of Heaven. There is nothing in scripture that says born-again is associated with our salvation and nothing that associates born again with us Gentiles in today's Gentile Church. The so-called rapture in Acts is the resurrection for those Jews that make up the Bride. The Appearing is the Gentile resurrection for the highest Heaven. - Col 3:4. 2Tim 4:1,8, Titus 2:13

(6) Water Baptism applies to born-again believers but does Not 'finish' a person's salvation.
There were 2 Baptisms for Israelites and Gentiles grafted into Israel during Acts - water and Spirit. There is one Baptism today, which is Spirit - Eph 4:5, Eph 1:13

(7) The Church and Israel are Separate.
Hallelujah!!! That's what I'm trying to get across. What you must understand is that the church in Acts was all-Israel, since the saved Gentiles is the Acts church were grafted into Israel and were therefore part of Israel. The Gentile church today is found only in Eph, Phil, Col, 1&2Im, Titus, and Phile, all written by Paul, the ONLY apostle to us Gentiles, AFTER Acts.

(8) God has given the Bible / His Word / to Everyone
All the Bible is written for us, for our learning, reproof, etc. However, all the Bible is not ABOUT us or TO us. From Gen 12 though Ac 28, 2000 years, the Gentiles had absolutely no blessings of their own. The only way they could enjoy any blessings at all was to go though God's chosen people, Israel, by becoming a proselyte. From Acts 10 through Acts 28, about 25 years, they were allowed into the all-Jewish Church, but they were all grafted into Israel. All during Acts, the Gentiles - see Rom 9:4 - were not adopted and, therefore, had no inheritance. They couldn't preach or teach because actual Israel had the service of God. They were not part of the covenants. At the end of Acts, because of their unbelief, Israel was set aside along with everything associated with Israel - essentially everything in Acts. I know of nothing in Acts, except for Paul's Gospel in 1Cor 15:1-4, that has anything at all to do with us Gentiles today. It's all gone - the rapture, the Acts church, the gifts, everything. Forget about it. Nothing in Acts will tell you or anyone today about their future.

After Acts, today, the Gentiles, plus those few Jews that have accepted Christ, are the chosen people, Eph 1:4. We have every spiritual blessing, in Heaven, that is possible. Eph 1:3. When Christ first appears to His creation in Heaven, we will immediately be translated to Heaven to appear with Him, Col 3:4. We now have an inheritance because we are now adopted by Christ, Eph 1:5. I could go on and on.


I still haven't figured out how to do that multi-quote thing

 

[B-A-C]

(1) The New Jerusalem -- that which God Will bring down from heaven for His people to dwell in forever.
The New Jerusalem is not Heaven. It is the prize calling for Israel from Gen 12 through the end of Acts. It will be attached to the New Earth - permanently, as far as we're told - therefore, it CAN'T be Heaven

Rev 21:2; And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband

On one hand, the new Jerusalem comes down "out of" heaven. So it isn't heaven is that regard.

The next verse says...

Rev 21:3; And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,

The question becomes... is heaven where God dwells?

It will be attached to the New Earth - permanently

Do you have scripture to support this? Many people believe it will float above the earth, much like the moon (but there isn't scripture to support this either).

(3 )Obeying 4? ordinances will not gain anyone salvation. That would be a 'work'. Obeying the 10 Commandments won't gain salvation for anyone.
The 10 commandments were part of Israel's Law and the Gentiles will never have to keep the Law. I agree with all you said, but the point is, that those 4 ordinances, along with all other ordinances, like water Baptism and the Lord's supper, are done away with in this present period of pure grace - Eph 2:15, Col 2:14, and:
Col 2:20
Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances

Ahh... the "pure grace" argument. That means I can be a rapist, murderer, child-molester and still be saved. I can continue doing those things as long as I
"believe in Jesus". because after all... we are "only saved by grace".
The Calvinist will say... ahh but if you were truly saved... you wouldn't do those things. Perhaps not.. do they do any other sins? Is there any difference between
their sins and these sins? Also.... "if you were saved... you wouldn't do those things". What things? sinful things? Then we are back to you are basing their
salvation of what they do.. "works". But then the Bible never says keeping the commandments is a "work".

 

[cfowen]

Rev 21:2; And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband

On one hand, the new Jerusalem comes down "out of" heaven. So it isn't heaven is that regard.

The next verse says...

Rev 21:3; And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,

The question becomes... is heaven where God dwells?



Do you have scripture to support this? Many people believe it will float above the earth, much like the moon (but there isn't scripture to support this either).



Ahh... the "pure grace" argument. That means I can be a rapist, murderer, child-molester and still be saved. I can continue doing those things as long as I
"believe in Jesus". because after all... we are "only saved by grace".
The Calvinist will say... ahh but if you were truly saved... you wouldn't do those things. Perhaps not.. do they do any other sins? Is there any difference between
their sins and these sins? Also.... "if you were saved... you wouldn't do those things". What things? sinful things? Then we are back to you are basing their
salvation of what they do.. "works". But then the Bible never says keeping the commandments is a "work".

Pure grace means you're not under any laws or ordinances, given by God - surely you know that. Grace and Law are opposites. Saying you can be a rapist or murderer is the type of thing people say when they have no valid rebuttal.. We will all be judged, 2Tim 4:1. We all sin. Anyone except Christ that ever said they don't sin is a liar. The gospel of the grace of God, for Gentiles during Acts was the good news that they didn't have to keep the Mosiac Law. However, they had 4 ordinances, from Ac 15 to keep, so nowhere in Acts were the Gentiles under pure grace, like today.

I believe that God, in some form of existence, will occupy all 3 spheres at the same time - earth (nation Israel), the heavens (New Jerusalem - for the prize winners of Israel) and the heaven of heavens = heavenly places; far above all heavens = the future abode of today's Gentile church. God can and will be everywhere simultaneously, I believe.

Many of my colleagues feel that if God doesn't enlighten a person (see Paul's prayer in Eph 1:16-23) to see their unique hope and calling in Paul's new church found only in his post-Acts epistles, they can't see the truth in Eph, Col, etc. and, therefore, they won't get that hope and calling. Most feel that God won't enlighten them unless they are approved unto God, by rightly dividing His Word, and, thus, totally have given up all of the Israel-only stuff we Gentiles have been told belongs to us by the failed denominational system. You can get saved in most of those churches but, after that, much of what they teach is a lie, due to their total reluctance to rightly divide God's word of truth. It took 10 years for me to see only Paul's 7 post-Acts epistles as Truth for Today and to totally eliminate everything in those other 59 books from my weak mind. By everything, I means those things that I originally applied to me, but didn't. I repeat that I can't think of anything ever given to Israel, except Deity, Christ, salvation, etc., that was also given to us Gentiles today.

The New Jerusalem is called the heavenly city, probably because of it's nature and because of where it comes from. Similar to Israel's Kingdom of Heaven being on earth. I have come to believe the KofH is not the same as the millennium. After Elijah restores everything. and God collects Israel around the globe and brings them to the land (1948 was fake in that regard), I believe Israel's Kingdom of Heaven will start and last about 700 years, with David on the throne and Christ actually ruling from Heaven. Everything will be peaceful and perfect. Then, something will make this self-destruct, the 7 year tribulation will take place. and then Christ's second coming will occur and all those that will eventually make up the Bride will be resurrected, go out to meet Christ and return with Him. Finally, the Millennium will start, Christ will be on earth as King, and He will rule with a rod of iron.Then, the white throne judgement, the New Heavens and New Earth, the New Jerusalem will come down, and God will be all in all. That's pretty much where I stand today. Not perfect yet, but I'll keep on it.

 

[Dave M]

@cfowen do you purposely sin? do you make a habit of sinning? does your theory on grace cover habitual sinners?



thanks

 

[Sue D.]

Pure grace means you're not under any laws or ordinances, given by God - surely you know that. Grace and Law are opposites. Saying you can be a rapist or murderer is the type of thing people say when they have no valid rebuttal.. We will all be judged, 2Tim 4:1. We all sin. Anyone except Christ that ever said they don't sin is a liar. The gospel of the grace of God, for Gentiles during Acts was the good news that they didn't have to keep the Mosiac Law. However, they had 4 ordinances, from Ac 15 to keep, so nowhere in Acts were the Gentiles under pure grace, like today.

I believe that God, in some form of existence, will occupy all 3 spheres at the same time - earth (nation Israel), the heavens (New Jerusalem - for the prize winners of Israel) and the heaven of heavens = heavenly places; far above all heavens = the future abode of today's Gentile church. God can and will be everywhere simultaneously, I believe.

Many of my colleagues feel that if God doesn't enlighten a person (see Paul's prayer in Eph 1:16-23) to see their unique hope and calling in Paul's new church found only in his post-Acts epistles, they can't see the truth in Eph, Col, etc. and, therefore, they won't get that hope and calling. Most feel that God won't enlighten them unless they are approved unto God, by rightly dividing His Word, and, thus, totally have given up all of the Israel-only stuff we Gentiles have been told belongs to us by the failed denominational system. You can get saved in most of those churches but, after that, much of what they teach is a lie, due to their total reluctance to rightly divide God's word of truth. It took 10 years for me to see only Paul's 7 post-Acts epistles as Truth for Today and to totally eliminate everything in those other 59 books from my weak mind. By everything, I means those things that I originally applied to me, but didn't. I repeat that I can't think of anything ever given to Israel, except Deity, Christ, salvation, etc., that was also given to us Gentiles today.

The New Jerusalem is called the heavenly city, probably because of it's nature and because of where it comes from. Similar to Israel's Kingdom of Heaven being on earth. I have come to believe the KofH is not the same as the millennium. After Elijah restores everything. and God collects Israel around the globe and brings them to the land (1948 was fake in that regard), I believe Israel's Kingdom of Heaven will start and last about 700 years, with David on the throne and Christ actually ruling from Heaven. Everything will be peaceful and perfect. Then, something will make this self-destruct, the 7 year tribulation will take place. and then Christ's second coming will occur and all those that will eventually make up the Bride will be resurrected, go out to meet Christ and return with Him. Finally, the Millennium will start, Christ will be on earth as King, and He will rule with a rod of iron.Then, the white throne judgement, the New Heavens and New Earth, the New Jerusalem will come down, and God will be all in all. That's pretty much where I stand today. Not perfect yet, but I'll keep on it.

You brought up Acts 15 -- vs 5 "Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."
vs 6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the Gospel and believe.
vs 8 "God, who knows the heart, showed that He accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as He did to us.
vs 11 " We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are. "
vs 9 "For He purified their hearts by Faith. "

You DO have an 'interesting' perspective on Scripture.

 

[B-A-C]

1 Jn 2:3; By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1 Jn 2:4; The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

1 Cor 7:19; Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

Circumcision is "the law". The commandments are not the law in this context.

John 15:10; "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

1 Jn 3:24; The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and Christ abides in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

We are told to "keep the commandments" over a dozen times in the new testament.

Can you be saved without knowing Jesus? Can you know Jesus without keeping the commandments?
If you say you know Him and don't keep the commandments, you are a liar.

 

[cfowen]

@cfowen do you purposely sin? do you make a habit of sinning? does your theory on grace cover habitual sinners?



thanks

Rom 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

Rom 3:12 "there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

Rom 3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"

Everyone is a habitual sinner, including you and and I. To deny it is to lie. We all know good and evil. Grace has nothing to do with sinning or not-sinning.. It is purely the opposite of law. Pure grace is total freedom, as far as God is concerned. Nothing fences us in except our faith and out love for Christ Jesus.. What we do with this freedom is up to us. During the past 1955 years, since we've had this pure grace, God has not manifested Himself to talk to us and keep us on the straight and narrow, like He did in past times. Neither has Christ or the Holy Spirit. We are totally on our own.. We are the only;people to have the complete Bible and God is in every word on every page. The words are all pure words, purified in the furnace. The Bible is the only instructor we have. For all those reasons, we are the most faithful of any group in the Bible. We, the scumy, slimy Gentiles, the former rock worshippers, are the only people in the Bible that will end up living in the highest Heaven, where Christ now sits at the right hand of God - Compare Eph 1:20 (Christ) with Eph 2:6 (us). This FACT is found only in Paul's 7 epistles written after Acts and those epistles are the only books in the Bible that are written ABOUT us and TO us. No group in the other 59 books ever had a chance of going to Heaven - search and see. Nothing in those 59 books will tell anyone today what their future will be. For us, that's found only in Paul's 7 post-Acts books.

John 16:13 has absolutely nothing to do with us today. That verse was talking about the Comforter, the Holy Spirit that came upon the Jews (only) in the upper room at Pentecost. The first taste of the spirit of the new Covenant, which puts the law in Israel's inward parts, so they could all keep the law and love doing it. Also, "And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour".Jer 31:34. That's what Jn 16:13 was talking about "when the Spirit of Truth would guide them in all truth". Not for us today. All we have is our Bible and our prayers, the only 2 sources for our faith. Buts that's all we need/

Eph 6:16
"Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked".

 

[Dave M]

@cfowen


You and I differ as I see a difference in someone who practices sin who is a habitual sinner, and someone who stumbles in sin and repents. I see a big difference.

So let me ask you this, do you believe when a person becomes saved they are changed, and people will noticed they are changed ?? or can they remain the same??

1 John 3:9
No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.


1 John 3:6
No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him

1 John 3:8
Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 6:1-2
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

Hebrews 10:26
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,





.

 

[Dave M]

. It is purely the opposite of law. Pure grace is total freedom, as far as God is concerned. Nothing fences us in except our faith and out love for Christ Jesus.. What we do with this freedom is up to us.

you paint a picture of wide get that is easy to get into heaven. Yet Jesus tells us it hard to get into heaven and FEW FEW FEW FEW get in. Its HARD HARD HARD to get into heaven brother

. the Freedom we now have is the freedom to choose not to be a slave to sin any longer. Before we had no such freedom we were a slave to sin. Our freedom is in be able to say no to sin. Before we are born again we had not such freedom

Matthew 7:13-14
“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

 

[cfowen]

you paint a picture of wide get that is easy to get into heaven. Yet Jesus tells us it hard to get into heaven and FEW FEW FEW FEW get in. Its HARD HARD HARD to get into heaven brother

. the Freedom we now have is the freedom to choose not to be a slave to sin any longer. Before we had no such freedom we were a slave to sin. Our freedom is in be able to say no to sin. Before we are born again we had not such freedom

Matthew 7:13-14
“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

You err, Brother, because you don't obey God and right;y divide His Word - 2Tim 2:15

-Christ was sent ONLY to Israel - Mt 15:24. We are not Israel, we are Gentiles.
-The 12 were told to not preach to the Gentiles - Mt 10:5.
-Nothing Christ ever said, concerning the future, applies to us Gentiles.
-No one that Christ ever spoke to or talked about, during His ministry, would ever have a chance of going to Heaven.
-Except for Christ, no one has ever ascended to Heaven - Jn 3:13. Every dead Saint is asleep in the grave. Every dead non-believer has ceased to exist.
-The only people that will go to Heaven are those Gentiles in the Church found only in Paul's 7 epistles written after Acts
-NO ONE in the other 59 books ever had a chance of going to Heaven
-Except for redemption,, Deity, Christ, Salvation, and other things of that nature, NOTHING in those other 59 books apply DIRECTLY TO you and they are not ABOUT you. They are TO and ABOUT Israel ONLY. If you think you're the same as a Israelite, start sacrificing animals and keep the entire Law.

SEARCH AND SEE! Find smoking gun passages that absolutely prove me wrong, if you can

Everything I said is scriptural and as plain as the nose on you face. It would do anybody good to totally stop listening to the know-nothing Denominational preachers and study their Bibles. Learn to rightly divide and increase your Bible IQ 1000%. As a bonus, if you do rightly divide God's Word of Truth, you will be approved unto God and will have no need to feel ashamed - see 2Tim 2:15

 

[B-A-C]

-Christ was sent ONLY to Israel - Mt 15:24. We are not Israel, we are Gentiles.

Perhaps, and yet, He did things for non-Jews.

Matt 15:22; And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, "Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed."
Matt 15:27; But she said, "Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters' table."
Matt 15:28; Then Jesus said to her, "O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed at once.

John 4:7n There *came a woman of Samaria to draw water. Jesus *said to her, "Give Me a drink."

It seems Jesus acknowledges that Gentiles will be in "the kingdom of heaven".

Matt 8:10; Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those who were following, "Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel.
Matt 8:11; "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven;
Matt 8:12; but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

-The 12 were told to not preach to the Gentiles - Mt 10:5.

Judas was one of the 12. After he hung himself Jesus meets Saul/Paul on the road to Damascus.

Acts 26:14; "And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew dialect, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.'
Acts 26:15; "And I said, 'Who are You, Lord?' And the Lord said, 'I am Jesus whom you are persecuting.

Acts 9:15; But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel;

Paul wasn't the only one who "mingled" with the Gentiles.

Acts 10:45; All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.

Acts 13:46; Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.


Acts 22:21; "And He said to me, 'Go! For I will send you far away to the Gentiles.'"

Paul says about himself...

1 Tim 2:7; For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

So Paul at least was commissioned by Jesus to the Gentiles.

-Nothing Christ ever said, concerning the future, applies to us Gentiles.

Read Matt 8:10-12;

-No one that Christ ever spoke to or talked about, during His ministry, would ever have a chance of going to Heaven.

I guess, that depends on what you mean by heaven.

John 6:40; "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

-Except for Christ, no one has ever ascended to Heaven - Jn 3:13. Every dead Saint is asleep in the grave. Every dead non-believer has ceased to exist.

I partially agree with this statement. There may be a few exceptions. Elijah and Enoch for come to mind.

2 Kings 2:11; As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven.

Heb 11:5; By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.

As far as the the non-believers ceasing to exist. Do you have scripture for this? The Bible doesn't support annihilation anywhere.

Rev 20:15; And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8; "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

 

[B-A-C]

John 14:2; In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3; If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

 

[cfowen]

Perhaps, and yet, He did things for non-Jews.

Matt 15:22; And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, "Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed."
Matt 15:27; But she said, "Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters' table."
Matt 15:28; Then Jesus said to her, "O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed at once.

John 4:7n There *came a woman of Samaria to draw water. Jesus *said to her, "Give Me a drink."

It seems Jesus acknowledges that Gentiles will be in "the kingdom of heaven".

Matt 8:10; Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those who were following, "Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel.
Matt 8:11; "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven;
Matt 8:12; but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."



Judas was one of the 12. After he hung himself Jesus meets Saul/Paul on the road to Damascus.

Acts 26:14; "And when we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew dialect, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.'
Acts 26:15; "And I said, 'Who are You, Lord?' And the Lord said, 'I am Jesus whom you are persecuting.

Acts 9:15; But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel;

Paul wasn't the only one who "mingled" with the Gentiles.

Acts 10:45; All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.

Acts 13:46; Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, "It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.


Acts 22:21; "And He said to me, 'Go! For I will send you far away to the Gentiles.'"

Paul says about himself...

1 Tim 2:7; For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

So Paul at least was commissioned by Jesus to the Gentiles.



Read Matt 8:10-12;



I guess, that depends on what you mean by heaven.

John 6:40; "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."



I partially agree with this statement. There may be a few exceptions. Elijah and Enoch for come to mind.

2 Kings 2:11; As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven.

Heb 11:5; By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.

As far as the the non-believers ceasing to exist. Do you have scripture for this? The Bible doesn't support annihilation anywhere.

Rev 20:15; And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:8; "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Anyone that does not rightly divide (correctly cut) God's word of truth, as commanded in 2Tim 2:15, is incapable of understanding the NT. All of your quotes tend to place you in that category of people that don't rightly divide God's Word of Truth. The question is, where do you make that single Cut, so it is Correctly made? Where do you cut God's word and divide it so you know one part is TO and ABOUT you and the other part IS NOT to or about you? Or, do you just neglect 2Tim 2:15, as every denominational preacher on the planet neglects it.

I detest games. Nothing you said proved anything I said to be wrong. Your quotes pick at the edges, but never get at the heart of the matter.

If you want to quote scripture and show that which applies to us today, please quote only from those epistles of Paul written after Israel was set aside in Acts 28_25-28, (Eph, Phil, Col, 1&2Tim, Titus, and Phile,) since, other than the subjects of redemption, Christ, Salvation, etc., they are the ONLY portion of scripture that are ABOUT us Gentiles living today and the ONLY books that apply directly TO us Gentiles living today. The differences below that absolutely set those 7 post-Acts books apart from the other 59 books, and specifically, the Acts period, are as follows. Just the first one, alone, is absolute proof that they are different that the rest of the Bible

----- In Acts, the Calling was the New Jerusalem, which is not Heaven. It comes down out of Heaven and then is permanently associated with the New Earth. After-Acts, the Calling is in the highest Heaven, where Christ sits at the right hand of God - Compare Eph 1:20 (Christ) with Eph 2:6 (Us)
----- In Acts, the resurrection hope is the Rapture. After-Acts, it is the Appearing - Titus 2:13, 2Tim 4:1,8, 1Tim 6:14, Col 3:4
----- In Acts, the Church was all Israel, since all saved Gentiles were grafted into Israel.. After-Acts, the church is essentially all Gentiles, along with a few Jews that believe in Christ
----- In Acts, the Gentiles had very few blessings and Israel had everything - Rom 9-4. After Acts, the Gentiles have every Spiritual Blessing possible, in Heaven, and Israel, as a nation, has nothing, since it is now totally blinded and hasn't existed, in God's eyes, in 1955 years - Eph 1:3, Acts 28:25-28
-----In Acts, everything Paul ever taught in his 7 Acts epistles was based on the Old Testament - Acts 26:22. After Acts, everything was based on a secret hid in God since the world began - Eph 3:9, Col 1:26. Nothing concerning this secret can be found anywhere else in scripture

Things that are different are never the same!!!

 

[cfowen]

John 14:2; In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3; If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

You're right. In the all-Israel New Jerusalem, which is not Heaven, there are many dwelling places It doesn't say that is heaven. Nowhere in the Bible, does it ever say that anyone would be in the Highest Heaven, where Christ now sits at the right hand of God, except for us Gentiles in Paul's 7 post-Acts epistles. When God is all in all, the Godhead will surely occupy all 3 spheres of blessings, simultaneously, probably all 3 members in each sphere.
(1) the New Earth, for the Nation of Israel, and those saved Gentiles who never had a specific Calling.
(2) the New Jerusalem, the prize of Israel's calling (in the New starry Heavens, if you will),
(3) The highest Heaven, where God and Christ presently occupy, and where, of all saved humans, ONLY present day saved Gentiles, and those few Jewish believers in Christ, today, will ever have a chance of living. This Heaven of heavens, most likely, will not be made anew, like the starry Heavens.(the Highest Heaven is also called Heavenly Places, the Heaven of Heavens, and Far above all Heavens, in scripture).

I tend to believe that the Highest Heaven sphere, which is invisible to the occupants of the starry heavens and the earth, surrounds and encompasses the starry heaven sphere and the earth, just like the starry heaven encompasses the earth, right now. If we had the sensory equipment that could sense God, we could just reach out and touch him, because He's right here!

 

[B-A-C]

Rom 11:1; I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2; God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
Rom 11:3; “Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.”
Rom 11:4; But what is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”
Rom 11:5; In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.

Rom 11:25; For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
Rom 11:25; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
Rom 11:27; “This is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
Rom 11:28; From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
Rom 11:29; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable

Are you anti-semantic?

Rev 7:4; And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
Rev 7:5; from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand,
Rev 7:6; from the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand,
Rev 7:7; from the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand,
Rev 7:8; from the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed