Beyond being saved, what must christians really do?

[KingJ]

So a "mortal sin" means you have turned away from God.

So by supporting the idea of mortal and venial sin, you are opposing the idea of OSAS.
In fact, by supporting the idea of purgatory, you are opposing the idea of OSAS.

No, no it doesn't.

Only God is good Mark 10:18. You, me, angels in heaven are all.......sinners. One-day in heaven we will judge angels 1 Cor 6:3. Judge them, because they sin.

The devil has sinned from the beginning 1 John 3:8. Mortal sins, a desire for extreme wickedness, height of vanity, was the reason he was removed from heaven.

Purgatory, I do not support or believe in. But, I do not think any less of Catholics that do. They can easily defend it. OSAS is true from the moment you sink to a depth of intent for repentance. This requires God to give us time and space. Time and space to make such a decision from 'true free will'. Many on earth seem to not be given equal and fair opportunity or be sufficiently tried for God to grasp their heart. Enter Purgatory. I personally believe they are and that God is able to utilize the time we have on earth to fully grasp the true intentions of all. There is a lot more we can discuss on Purgatory, but leave that for the Purgatory thread.

 

[KingJ]

That is really nice. Thank God for his mercy.
And I have repented with much contrition from time to time. Psalm 51:10-12 saved my soul after a year of tribulation beyond measure.
BUT (there is always a but) notwithstanding this mercy and grace there are those who are fully saved and Spirit-filled and have departed from the faith.
As yet some of these are not forthcoming with a broken spirit or a broken and contrite heart. Far from it. One saint has become a lesbian and claims that she is happier now than when she was in Christian fellowship.
Time is against these reprobates. For although they may eventually one day come to their senses and leave the pigsty to return, they are in mortal danger for their souls. For if they do not repent and return before they
physically die or before the day of the Lord then they are doomed. And the scriptures in the NT have many many warnings to this end.

Matthew 25:10 And while they were going to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11 Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open to us.’
Mat 25:12 But he answered, ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’
Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.

As I have said before, our common ground is that we both fully agree that nobody in a mortal sin or in consistent unrepentant venial sins, will be in heaven.

Paul says in Phil 2:12 that we must ''continue in'' working out our salvation in fear and trembling. This speaks to constant, daily self examination. Even if one believe in OSAS.

If you are living in a sin that you know God ordained the death penalty for in the OT, how do you survive a session of self judgement on your knees before God in fear and trembling? You don't.

It is easy for a human fool to think he is saved when he is not. God, however does not make that mistake. He knows who are His John 10:27.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us .

 

[KingJ]

Baptisms occur before a convert is saved. It is baptism that does save you.

No, water baptisms do not save you.

That is like saying you cannot be married without a marriage ceremony.

There are nine batpisms mentioned in the NT. It is at the time we are baptised in the Holy Spirit that we are saved. As this is when we get a revelation of / faith to call Jesus Lord 1 Cor 12:3 and completely fulfill John 3:16.

 

[KingJ]

1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
Philippians 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an example.
3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
sounds like the prosperity gospel was preached in Philippi.

If Paul called these people ''enemies of the cross'' I am pretty sure God agreed and would never bond Himself to them. Just as we see with ''I never knew you'' in Matt 7:23.

 

[complete]

Demas abandoned Paul in a time of need. He was not a born again Christian. He was a classic example of those who tasted of Jesus and rejected Him.

Annanias and Sapphira committed a mortal sin. By not giving their full share they were stifling the growth and success of the early church. They were devils.

God is not a fool who would have asked the Holy Spirit to give any of these a revelation of Jesus. Washed clean in His blood. Grafted into His family. Made them new creations.

We would. We are fools. We marry devils and make terrible mistakes often. God is not a fool like us. He is God. It is hard to grasp, you are all in my prayers.

Do you know of any others? I am looking for someone we know actually served God. Someone who was '''actually'' capable of fulfilling Matt 16:24.

Hello @KingJ,

With respect, I find myself differing with your opinion in regard to both Demas, and Ananias and Sapphira.

Demas was a fellow labourer with Paul in the gospel of God. When Colossians was written towards the end of Paul's first imprisonment at Rome, Demas was with Paul, along with Timothy, Marcus, Lucas and Aristarchus. It was only in Paul's last letter to Timothy that Demas is said to have left Paul, 'having loved this present world'. The situation at that time was dire. Paul knew that his time was short, and that martyrdom awaited him. Believers were being persecuted and killed in horrific ways at that time. What a warning this should be to us, to hold fast, and remain faithful, even unto death if need be. Remembering the joy that is awaiting those who do endure. For they will reign with Christ. Paul Himself wanted to finish his course, with joy (Acts 20:24), and he himself asked for prayer. We are not told that Demas lost his faith, only that he loved this present world.

Ananias and Saphira were free to use the money that they made, by selling land in their possession, anyway they wanted; they were under no obligation. Their wrong was in lying to God. Nothing more and nothing less. They were not devils. Judgement fell on them immediately. They lost their lives. Did they lose their faith? Will they be raised to life at the last day? It is said by Paul in 1 Corinthians 5:4-5 about another offender, 'In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, to deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. The object in the sentencing was that the offender may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus, when He will come as Judge.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Downunder]

Demas abandoned Paul in a time of need. He was not a born again Christian. He was a classic example of those who tasted of Jesus and rejected Him.
Ananias and Sapphira committed a mortal sin. By not giving their full share they were stifling the growth and success of the early church. They were devils.
God is not a fool who would have asked the Holy Spirit to give any of these a revelation of Jesus. Washed clean in His blood. Grafted into His family. Made them new creations.
We would. We are fools. We marry devils and make terrible mistakes often. God is not a fool like us. He is God. It is hard to grasp, you are all in my prayers.
Do you know of any others? I am looking for someone we know that for a fact ''actually'' served God. Someone who was '''actually'' capable of fulfilling Matt 16:24

Man you have no idea of what you are writing of.
Your responses are garbled machinations of theology and doctrines; and your understanding of scripture is woeful.
Ananias and Sapphira were not devils they were Spirit-filled baptised Pentecostal Christians in the first church of God. And they sinned and were judged.
Where does scripture state that Demas was not a Pentecostal Christian? Not a disciple in the church?

 

[KingJ]

I remember after being born again,my life did not change all the much at the start. I still had very bad language,along with a few other flaws i will not get into. After a couple of weeks an older brother in the Lord confronted me about many of my old actions. He was very nice about it,and said " Do you realize that claiming to be a true believer now requires you act like one.

A dog acts like a dog,not a cat,a fish acts like a fish not a land creature,so why do you not?? And then it hit me!!( James 1:22) Claiming to be a believer and saying you are one,does not make you one until you act like one!! So I now took Jesus very serious! He truly means what he says in his Word. Before I took the Bible as being suggestive,but now I take it as part of my life!

When I followed in his Word,it was then my life had much more meaning,and the Lord indeed did confirmed himself as I spoke to others about him.( Mark 16:20) Jesus is not hobbie,nor is being a believer a game of any kind. When, and it really does take the Holy Spirit to revel these things,as many people outside Holy Spirit tend to judge others( Rom 2:1-5) you will see your life change for the better!

You were able to head James 1:22 because you loved God. If you did not love God you would not have tried to be a ''better ambassador'' for Him.

Try asking an unrepentant pedophile to be a Christian ambassador for Jesus around little children.

You meant business with Jesus. Your love was genuine. You must have truly hated what is evil and desired what is good Rom 12:9. You must have repented at a depth of intent Psalm 51:17. Obeying Jesus and being a good ambassador met no resistance from you because you ''approved'' of the teachings of Jesus.

You were made a new creation on the inside, you just needed to shake mud off.

 

[B-A-C]

2Tim 2:17; And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort,
2Tim 2:18; who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.

 

[complete]

deleted

 

[High Premise]

II Peter 3:16
“As also in all his epistles,
speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood,
which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest,
as they do also the other scriptures,
unto their own destruction.”

 

[KingJ]

Hello @KingJ,

With respect, I find myself differing with your opinion in regard to both Demas, and Ananias and Sapphira.

Interrogate all you want .

Demas was a fellow labourer with Paul in the gospel of God. When Colossians was written towards the end of Paul's first imprisonment at Rome, Demas was with Paul, along with Timothy, Marcus, Lucas and Aristarchus. It was only in Paul's last letter to Timothy that Demas is said to have left Paul, 'having loved this present world'. The situation at that time was dire. Paul knew that his time was short, and that martyrdom awaited him. Believers were being persecuted and killed in horrific ways at that time. What a warning this should be to us, to hold fast, and remain faithful, even unto death if need be. Remembering the joy that is awaiting those who do endure. For they will reign with Christ. Paul Himself wanted to finish his course, with joy (Acts 20:24), and he himself asked for prayer. We are not told that Demas lost his faith, only that he loved this present world.

2 Tim 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

The Greek verb used in the original implies that Demas had not merely left Paul but had left him “in the lurch”; that is, Demas had abandoned Paul in a time of need.

I hear your argument. It is a strong one. I personally would not harshly judge anyone running from death and torture. But the fact is that he did this. He abandoned Paul. Consider Rev 2:10. Anyone who cannot endure torture and death, is not saved and taken to heaven. Consider also John 15:13 and John 3:16. God laid His life down for us.

My take on ''OSAS'' differs from many in that I believe we are only saved once we are able to reach an equal depth of intent 'for' Jesus as those in Rev 2:10 will need to.

If we read of Elijah and the siege of Samaria. We see that there was a fellow Israelite who lost hope in God. This guy died and did not see God save the Israelites. There is a ''heavy'' hitting truth in people being able to endure persecution for Jesus. God wants to see what we are made of. We can only assume that if one cannot ''deny themselves'' as Jesus says in Matt 16:24 or as God demands in Rev 2:10, they are not ''worthy''.

The act of laying our lives down for God as He has for us, is a depth of love that unites mankind and God for all eternity. This is why I just am shocked at those who suggest ''serving God cups of tea on a regular basis'' or ''praying in tongues'' or ''being dunked in water by a pastor'' = saved.

 

[complete]

Interrogate all you want

2 Tim 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.

The Greek verb used in the original implies that Demas had not merely left Paul but had left him “in the lurch”; that is, Demas had abandoned Paul in a time of need.

I hear your argument. It is a strong one. I personally would not harshly judge anyone running from death and torture. But the fact is that he did this. He abandoned Paul. Consider Rev 2:10. Anyone who cannot endure torture and death, is not saved and taken to heaven. Consider also John 15:13 and John 3:16. God laid His life down for us.

My take on ''OSAS'' differs from many in that I believe we are only saved once we are able to reach an equal depth of intent 'for' Jesus as those in Rev 2:10 will need to.

If we read of Elijah and the siege of Samaria. We see that there was a fellow Israelite who lost hope in God. This guy died and did not see God save the Israelites. There is a ''heavy'' hitting truth in people being able to endure persecution for Jesus. God wants to see what we are made of. We can only assume that if one cannot ''deny themselves'' as Jesus says in Matt 16:24 or as God demands in Rev 2:10, they are not ''worthy''.

The act of laying our lives down for God as He has for us, is a depth of love that unites mankind and God for all eternity.

Hello @KingJ,

You ask me to consider Revelation 2:10, 'Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.' This has 'reward' in view doesn't it? A crown of life (1 Peter 5:1-4). These are saved souls, they will have life through His Name, but could lose the reward for faithfulness.

'The elders which are among you I exhort,
.. who am also an elder,
.... and a witness of the sufferings of Christ,
...... and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
Feed the flock of God which is among you,
.. taking the oversight thereof,
.... not by constraint,
...... but willingly;
........ not for filthy lucre,
.......... but of a ready mind;
............ Neither as being lords over God's heritage,
.............. but being ensamples to the flock.
And when the chief Shepherd shall appear,
ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.'
(1 Peter 5:1-4)

In relation to your 'take on OSAS':- If that were the standard then nobody would be saved. I praise God that He saves to the uttermost those who come unto Him for salvation, through faith in His only Begotten Son; and that His love is commended to us, in that, while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. So the door is open for such as myself to enter in and be accepted in the Beloved, be declared to be 'holy and without blame', and 'complete' in Christ Jesus,on the basis of Christ's all-sufficient sacrifice.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[KingJ]

Ananias and Saphira were free to use the money that they made, by selling land in their possession, anyway they wanted; they were under no obligation. Their wrong was in lying to God. Nothing more and nothing less. They were not devils. Judgement fell on them immediately. They lost their lives. Did they lose their faith? Will they be raised to life at the last day? It is said by Paul in 1 Corinthians 5:4-5 about another offender, 'In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, to deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. The object in the sentencing was that the offender may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus, when He will come as Judge.

I don't agree.

We see in Acts 4:34 that it was the sale by all who had land and houses that resulted in there not being any 'need'. Acts 4:34 Nor was there anyone among them who lacked; for all who were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of the things that were sold, 35 and laid them at the apostles’ feet; and they distributed to each as anyone had need.

Ananias had land. He sold it. He had full control over the proceeds Acts 5:4. He held some back. Thereby, not only lying but also stifling the early church.

Peter was a reasonable guy. So, you have to ask yourself. Would he have cursed Timothy if Timothy did such? Would someone like Timothy had done something that warranted a curse from Peter? I cannot see Peter ''ever'' cursing Paul or Timothy. I cannot see Peter ever cursing someone who has been persecuted for Jesus and truly proven their devotion. Peter did ''curse'' them. He could have remained silent. He publicly exposed their sin and ''bound'' them per Matt 16:19.

You need to understand that their ''lie to the Holy Spirit'' must have been a very serious offence. If we read the OT, we see that only mortal sinners received capital punishment of death.

I have meditated on what exactly their sin was for many years. As it does seem extreme. I have pondered if maybe they are in heaven and maybe God simply did it as an example to us all. We know from Acts 5:11 that a great fear of God came upon the church. We know that Peter got established as a man of God. There is truth to this, but since God is impartial Acts 10:34, He has to have had reason sufficient to justify capital punishment.

As such, I firmly believe the following: They committed a mortal sin. Funds were needed to start the early church. Their sin would have hampered the progress. They knew the funds were needed. They knew they were hurting the initial push needed for the message of Jesus to spread. They would not have done this if they loved Jesus. They ''departed'' instantly as they were not one of them.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us .

 

[KingJ]

Man you have no idea of what you are writing of.
Your responses are garbled machinations of theology and doctrines; and your understanding of scripture is woeful.
Ananias and Sapphira were not devils they were Spirit-filled baptised Pentecostal Christians in the first church of God. And they sinned and were judged.
Where does scripture state that Demas was not a Pentecostal Christian? Not a disciple in the church?

You believe the Holy of Holy's will descend on, wash clean and graft into His family a devil? Your understanding of 'God of the universe' is not so good.

You believe a person who takes a bath, prays in tongues and attends church meetings is saved. Your understanding of God and salvation is not so good.

 

[complete]

I don't agree.

We see in Acts 4:34 that it was the sale by all who had land and houses that resulted in there not being any 'need'. Acts 4:34 Nor was there anyone among them who lacked; for all who were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of the things that were sold, 35 and laid them at the apostles’ feet; and they distributed to each as anyone had need.

Ananias had land. He sold it. He had full control over the proceeds Acts 5:4. He held some back. Thereby, not only lying but also stifling the early church.

Peter was a reasonable guy. So, you have to ask yourself. Would he have cursed Timothy if Timothy did such? Would someone like Timothy had done something that warranted a curse from Peter? I cannot see Peter ''ever'' cursing Paul or Timothy. I cannot see Peter ever cursing someone who has been persecuted for Jesus and truly proven their devotion. Peter did ''curse'' them. He could have remained silent. He publicly exposed their sin and ''bound'' them per Matt 16:19.

You need to understand that their ''lie to the Holy Spirit'' must have been a very serious offence. If we read the OT, we see that only mortal sinners received capital punishment of death.

I have meditated on what exactly their sin was for many years. As it does seem extreme. I have pondered if maybe they are in heaven and maybe God simply did it as an example to us all. We know from Acts 5:11 that a great fear of God came upon the church. We know that Peter got established as a man of God. There is truth to this, but since God is impartial Acts 10:34, He has to have had reason sufficient to justify capital punishment.

As such, I firmly believe the following: They committed a mortal sin. Funds were needed to start the early church. Their sin would have hampered the progress. They knew the funds were needed. They knew they were hurting the initial push needed for the message of Jesus to spread. They would not have done this if they loved Jesus. They ''departed'' instantly as they were not one of them.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us .

Hello @KingJ,

Thank you for sharing your further thoughts on this, but with respect only what is written has any validity. Our thoughts regarding these things are worthless unless they are backed up by Scripture. Lying to God was sufficient in itself to justify their end.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[KingJ]

Hello @KingJ,

Thank you for sharing your further thoughts on this, but with respect only what is written has any validity. Our thoughts regarding these things are worthless unless they are backed up by Scripture. Lying to God was sufficient in itself to justify their end.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Scripture says they lied and it says they held back funds that were used to meet the needs of all.

A lie can be a mortal or a venial sin. Scripture says God is impartial. As such, since they got capital punishment, their sin ''has'' to have been a mortal sin. Their ''lie'' therefore has to have been a devastating one. We can see it was, when we read the context of it all.

It does not help zooming in on one scripture and teaching that as the A-Z on a matter when the message is illogical and defies the rest of scripture. That is called cherry picking. Half truths. Which are probably worse then not quoting scripture and giving opinions.

 

[B-A-C]

A lie can be a mortal or a venial sin. Scripture says God is impartial. As such, since they got capital punishment, their sin ''has'' to have been a mortal sin. Their ''lie'' therefore has to have been a devastating one. We can see it was, when we read the context of it all.

It does not help zooming in on one scripture and teaching that as the A-Z on a matter when the message is illogical and defies the rest of scripture. That is called cherry picking. Half truths. Which are probably worse then not quoting scripture and giving opinions.

If a Christian can commit a "mortal sin" as you call it. Then they can lose their salvation.

You have been given much more than one scripture about this.

John 6:66; As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.
John 6:67; So Jesus said to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?"

2Tim 2:17; and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus,
2Tim 2:18; men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they overturn the faith of some.

Matt 24:10; "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.

1Tim 4:1; But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

Phm 1:24; as do Mark, Aristarchus, Demas, Luke, my fellow workers.
2Tim 4:10; for Demas, having loved this present world, has deserted me and gone to Thessalonica; Crescens has gone to Galatia, Titus to Dalmatia.

Demas was a "fellow worker" in the church. (a believer) who left Paul because he "loved this present world".

We know what the Bible says about loving the world.

Luke 8:13; "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

2Pet 2:20; For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
2Pet 2:21; For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
2Pet 2:22; It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

After you've been given 5 or 6 examples... it's no longer cherry picking.

Rev 2:4; 'But I have this against you, that you have left your first love.
Rev 2:5; 'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent.

 

[KingJ]

Hello @KingJ,

You ask me to consider Revelation 2:10, 'Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.' This has 'reward' in view doesn't it? A crown of life (1 Peter 5:1-4). These are saved souls, they will have life through His Name, but could lose the reward for faithfulness.

'The elders which are among you I exhort,
.. who am also an elder,
.... and a witness of the sufferings of Christ,
...... and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
Feed the flock of God which is among you,
.. taking the oversight thereof,
.... not by constraint,
...... but willingly;
........ not for filthy lucre,
.......... but of a ready mind;
............ Neither as being lords over God's heritage,
.............. but being ensamples to the flock.
And when the chief Shepherd shall appear,
ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.'
(1 Peter 5:1-4)

I am not sure what your point is. Revelations 2:10 speaks to those living in the tribulation. They need to reject the mark of the beast. If they do, they get killed and will go straight to heaven. If they don't, they will go to hell. Nothing else matters.

In relation to your 'take on OSAS':- If that were the standard then nobody would be saved. I praise God that He saves to the uttermost those who come unto Him for salvation, through faith in His only Begotten Son; and that His love is commended to us, in that, while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. So the door is open for such as myself to enter in and be accepted in the Beloved, be declared to be 'holy and without blame', and 'complete' in Christ Jesus,on the basis of Christ's all-sufficient sacrifice.

This is simply not true. God is impartial Acts 10:34. God would not be impartial or righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17 if He gave you and I any kind of ''special'' treatment.

If you cannot die for Jesus, you cannot die for Jesus. There are no ifs, and's or but's in Matt 16:24 when Jesus says ''deny yourself''.

Consider these verses

1 John 3:16 By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.

Early Christians were terribly martyred. Imagine being that person in heaven that yelled ''stop, stop, I will bow to you Nero and kiss your feet''.

 

[complete]

I don't agree.

We see in Acts 4:34 that it was the sale by all who had land and houses that resulted in there not being any 'need'. Acts 4:34 Nor was there anyone among them who lacked; for all who were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of the things that were sold, 35 and laid them at the apostles’ feet; and they distributed to each as anyone had need.

Ananias had land. He sold it. He had full control over the proceeds Acts 5:4. He held some back. Thereby, not only lying but also stifling the early church.

Peter was a reasonable guy. So, you have to ask yourself. Would he have cursed Timothy if Timothy did such? Would someone like Timothy had done something that warranted a curse from Peter? I cannot see Peter ''ever'' cursing Paul or Timothy. I cannot see Peter ever cursing someone who has been persecuted for Jesus and truly proven their devotion. Peter did ''curse'' them. He could have remained silent. He publicly exposed their sin and ''bound'' them per Matt 16:19.

You need to understand that their ''lie to the Holy Spirit'' must have been a very serious offence. If we read the OT, we see that only mortal sinners received capital punishment of death.

I have meditated on what exactly their sin was for many years. As it does seem extreme. I have pondered if maybe they are in heaven and maybe God simply did it as an example to us all. We know from Acts 5:11 that a great fear of God came upon the church. We know that Peter got established as a man of God. There is truth to this, but since God is impartial Acts 10:34, He has to have had reason sufficient to justify capital punishment.

As such, I firmly believe the following: They committed a mortal sin. Funds were needed to start the early church. Their sin would have hampered the progress. They knew the funds were needed. They knew they were hurting the initial push needed for the message of Jesus to spread. They would not have done this if they loved Jesus. They ''departed'' instantly as they were not one of them.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us .

Hello again @KingJ.

Your words brought to mind verses from Hebrews 6:1-5. In which the writer urges his readers to 'go on unto perfection'. Yet in verse 3, we see the words, 'if God permit', and the reason for this is made clear in verses 4-5.

'Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ,
.. let us go on unto perfection;
.... not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works,
...... and of faith toward God,
........ Of the doctrine of baptisms,
.......... and of laying on of hands,
............ and of resurrection of the dead,
.............. and of eternal judgment.
And this will we do, if God permit.
.. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened,
.... and have tasted of the heavenly gift,
...... and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
........ And have tasted the good word of God,
.......... and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;
seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh,
and put Him to an open shame.'

Ananias and Sapphira, had been at Pentecost, they had been 'enlightened' and 'received of the Heavenly gift', and 'were made partakers of the Holy Ghost'. They had 'tasted the good word of God' , and 'the powers of the world to come'. Therefore they, in lying to God, had placed themselves under the judgment of the world to come too, and suffered it's consequences. Though I believe their souls will be saved in the day of Christ.

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of The Living God (Hebrews 10:31). We are recipients of His grace now, and know His love, His mercy, His grace, but He is also a God of wrath, and of Judgement, and will not allow sin to go unpunished.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[KingJ]

''After you've been given 5 or 6 examples... it's no longer cherry picking.''

Depends, in your case I see it as 'spamming' cherry picked scriptures.

You would be more effective if you dealt with arguments raised. Took a post from me and quoted every section with an explanation. You have this idea that spamming scripture equates to you winning a discussion. It just shows you evade, spam and do not want to budge or properly discuss a belief a fellow brother has called borderline satanic.