Being "thrown out".

[B-A-C]

It seems there are several threads about "what is the church", "falling away", and "what is the kingdom".
I'll try not to rehash those, as they are already active threads. But on the a somewhat related note...

Have you ever noticed how much Jesus talks about being "thrown out" or "cast out". To me this is even worse than "falling away".
Falling away might be a unconscious thing I did, just because I wasn't paying attention. I just didn't care anymore.

But being thrown out... that's a different story. If someone is a part of my "group" (family, friends, work, church, people I do sports with, whatever).. I think in reality we all have different groups we are part of.
If someone quits showing up... maybe we'll notice it. Maybe we won't. Maybe we'll wonder "whatever happened to old Bob?" But if on the other hand, someone does something really bad.... so bad that we can't
continue to keep him as part of the group... we might "throw him out". This has actually happened to me once. Long story for another thread, but I will say I deserved it. Even now, 30 years later.. people remember it.
I remember it. No one asks "whatever happened to old B-A-C?". They know, everyone knows. They remember.

Jesus is talking about Jews and Gentiles here in Matt 8.

Matt 8:11; "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven;
Matt 8:12; but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

But He says here... "the sons of the kingdom will be cast out". What? Jesus casting someone out? Out of what? You can't be "cast out" of something, unless your in something to begin with.
I can't be thrown out of a building, unless I'm in the building. I can't be thrown out of a club, unless I'm a member of the club.

Jesus talks about salt that has lost it's flavor.

Matt 5:13; "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.
Luke 14:35; "It is useless either for the soil or for the manure pile; it is thrown out. He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

Jesus says it's no good for anything more. It wasn't like the salt never had flavor to begin with. It just became tasteless over a period of time. Jesus says it needs to be "thrown out".

Then we have the parable on the talents. There are three servants in the Master's house. Two are told "well done, good and faithful servant". The third one is another story.

Matt 25:26; "But his master answered and said to him, 'You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed.
Matt 25:27; 'Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest.
Matt 25:28; 'Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.'
Matt 25:29; "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.
Matt 25:30; "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

These aren't just any servants in any house. They are in the Master's house. Part of His household. These aren't people with no Master. They have a Master.
Now why the servants was thrown out... is perhaps another thread for another day. But the fact remains... Jesus says "Throw out the worthless slave". I hope none of us are "worthless" salt, or "worthless" slaves.
It's hard for some people to imagine Jesus calling anyone "worthless".

... to be continued ...

 

[B-A-C]

There is also the parable of the unfaithful steward.

Matt 24:48; ''But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,'
Matt 24:49; and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards;
Matt 24:50; the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know,
Matt 24:51; and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Again, this isn't someone without a "Master". Again this is someone who is part of the Master's household.
But the Master says... "assign him a place with the hypocrites". This story is also in Luke.

Luke 12:43; "Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes.
Luke 12:44; "Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions.
Luke 12:45; "But if that slave says in his heart, 'My master will be a long time in coming,' and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk;
Luke 12:46; the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

Not only is he in the Master's house, he is "in charge of all His possessions". A big responsibility. Apparently too big for this particular servant.
Again the Master says "assign him a place with the unbelievers".

... to be continued ....

 

[B-A-C]

Jesus tells another parable, this one is about "the kingdom".

Matt 13:24; Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.

The kingdom of heaven may be compared to.... This is an illustration of the kingdom of heaven. Jesus is telling us something about the kingdom here.
One of the things He says in this parable is that there are both wheat and tares in the kingdom. The tares will be removed.

Matt 13:40; "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
Matt 13:41; "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
Matt 13:42; and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

He will send forth His angels and "gather OUT OF HIS KINGDOM" all stumbling blocks and those who commit lawlessness.
After this.. they "will throw them into the furnace of fire". It appears some things in the kingdom of heaven will be thrown out and burned.

Here is another parable about "the kingdom"

Matt 13:47; "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind;
Matt 13:48; and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away.
Matt 13:49; "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
Matt 13:50; and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

"the kingdom of heaven is like.." Once again Jesus is giving us an illustration about the kingdom of heaven.
He says it's like a net with both good fish and bad fish in it. At "the end of the age" the angels will remove the bad fish.
It seems there are both wicked and righteous in the kingdom here. But the wicked will be removed by the angels.
Then they will "throw them into the furnace of fire".

I sure hope none of us are "bad fish" or "tares". But just because you are in the net, in the house, in the field... doesn't mean you can't be thrown out.

... to be continued ..

 

[B-A-C]

There seemingly is a conflicting verses in John 6. We should talk about it.

John 6:37; "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
John 6:38; "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
John 6:39; "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
John 6:40; "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

One interesting note in verse 37. Two kinds of people come to Jesus. Those the Father gives Him, and those who come of their volition.
Sorry, got off topic for a second.

But Jesus says here.... "I will certainly not cast out" (these people).
Jesus also says "I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day".

So if Jesus doesn't cast anyone out, how come so many verses say some are "cast out" (thrown out).

The Bible says both the righteous and the wicked will be resurrected. ( John 5:28-29; Acts 24:15; ) The judgment happens after the resurrection.
So Jesus because Jesus didn't cast you out while you were on the Earth.. doesn't mean you won't be after the judgment.
Jesus says He will raise them up "on the last day". That's great, but where do the wicked end up after this?

... to be continued ...

 

[B-A-C]

I'd like to look at this passage a little closer.

Matt 24;
45 “Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time?
46 Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes.
47 Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions.
48 But if that evil slave says in his heart, ‘My master is not coming for a long time,’
49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards;
50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know,
51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

There is the "faithful and sensible" servant, who is blessed. But there is also the "evil" servant.
Both kinds of servants are in the Master's house. This could be a church. It could be "the" Church.
But this evil servant... "begins to beat his fellow slaves". Have you ever known any Christians like this. People in the church even.
People here on TalkJesus even. You try to be nice to them. You never insult them, but they be-ride you. They tease you. Some even
call you names, and say you're stupid, clueless, or moronic. Yes, I seen these exact words here on TalkJesus.
Have you ever felt "beaten" by a fellow servant in the Master's house? I know I have felt that way., I don't have the kind of personality
that it really gets me down or depressed, more often I get angry sometimes, but I try not to reply in anger.
But I do feel sorry for those people. I've seen passive-aggressive, manipulators, I've seem them all here.
Why do I feel sorry for them... because these are the ones it says will be thrown out and assigned a place with the hypocrites.

 

[PloughBoy]

B-A-C, Look I don't mean any harm but something, you continue to talk or type multiple of "texts on top of texts" and asking rapid fire of questions and assumptions on top of assumptions. Mixing different meaning of words that are spelled the same but does not have the same meaning because of the "English syntax" of writing rules. Here is just a short example what I mean:

1. It is a place in "holy scripture" that says: "the Falling Away" which falls into a certain " biblical terminology" which refers to the "Great Falling Away" the Great Apostasy. Then in other places in the Bible it use the words as "falling " away" like many will fall away from the truth or fall away from following Jesus. "English syntax" rules of placement. The Bible uses a lot of " compound complex syntax".

Example 2

You mention the word "kingdom" Kingdom of God,, kingdom of heaven is specified. I am not going to go in great detail explaining the use of this word in "a compound complex syntax" of the English language. Try to figure this one out for yourself and I think you will get it.

1. Jesus said: if this was my Kingdom my servants would fight for me so that I am not delivered into you hands, my kingdom is not of "this world"
2. Satan told Jesus: I will give you authority over all these "kingdom" and all their glory.
3. Jesus told the religious rulers, your father is the devil. In other words you are the sons of this kingdom..
4. Jesus will return and set up his kingdom.
5. The English compound complex syntax is very important when reading "the Translated Word of God".


I hope you get the flavor. "The sons of the kingdom will get cast out!. So in essence can you see what I am saying.
shalom

 

[B-A-C]

I hope you get the flavor. "The sons of the kingdom will get cast out!. So in essence can you see what I am saying.

Matt 8:11-12;
I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

In this context it specifically mentions "kingdom of heaven". It immediately says "sons of the kingdom" right after this. Which kingdom? The kingdom in the previous sentence.

 

[B-A-C]

Luke 13
6 And He began telling this parable: “A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any.
7 And he said to the vineyard-keeper, ‘Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?’
8 And he answered and said to him, ‘Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer;
9 and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.’”

Jesus is telling yet another parable about a tree in vineyard. This particular story is slightly different than the others, because it doesn't specifically mention being "thrown out" or "cast out", but it
does mention being "cut down". I believe in this context it amounts to much the same thing.

This tree isn't just any tree in any vineyard. But the owner comes looking for fruit. In fact he has come every year for the last three years looking for fruit. I have to wonder why he was expecting to find fruit here.
You don't look on a dead tree for fruit. You look somewhere where fruit can grow. The Bible says Jesus is the true vine, and we are the branches. It says we can do nothing without Him.
It says He is the living water... the water of life. If a tree isn't planted in the soil where it can get nutrients and water.. it will die. But the man was "expecting" to find fruit on this particular tree.

(My paraphrase) "why is it even taking up space here in my vineyard, it's useless".
But the grounds-keeper says... let me water it, fertilize it, aerate the soil around it... and see if it bears fruit next year. He has already waited 3 years, but he is giving it another chance.
But if it doesn't bear fruit next year... "cut it down".

It seems some people are in the right garden, getting the right water and getting the right fertilizer, but even though Jesus is giving them all the nutrients they need to bear fruit. They simply refuse to
for one reason or another. They have the best "grounds-keeper" in the business taking care of them, but they bear no fruit. Is it because they aren't capable, or is it because they simply "don't want to".
Either way... "chop it down".

... to be continued ...

 

[PloughBoy]

Matt 8:11-12;
I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

In this context it specifically mentions "kingdom of heaven". It immediately says "sons of the kingdom" right after this. Which kingdom? The kingdom in the previous sentence.

I was not addressing context. But understand "compound complex" " English syntax". Context is context, English syntax is syntax. Either regular English syntax form or compound syntax or complex syntax form and then we have "compounded complex syntax" form in which the Bible speaks a lot in this form, These are some of the rules for the English language. You cannot avoid these rules! If you do, you are in error! Sometimes interpreting biblical lanuage. A person just because they know words, on serious explanations they most know rules of grammar as well. If one things he doesn't need to know this stuff, especially if they think they can instruct others, they are in error! Jesus also mention grammer
King James Version
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Darby Bible Translation
For verily I say unto you, Until the heaven and the earth pass away, one iota or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all come to pass.

World English Bible
For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished.

And the Bible also for this reason also: not many of you should be teachers or trying to be. Because explaining ibiblical truth is serious. And also the Reformers and the Catholic Church did not want to translate it into the common mans lanuage, this is one of the reason it cause a lot of deaths to put it in the lanuage of the people, trying to advoid such errors of reading.

New International Version
Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

New Living Translation
Dear brothers and sisters, not many of you should become teachers in the church, for we who teach will be judged more strictly.

English Standard Version
Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness.

Berean Study Bible
Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

Berean Literal Bible
Not many of you should be teachers my brothers, knowing that we will receive greater judgment.

New American Standard Bible
Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.

 

[B-A-C]

Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.

From one teacher to another.. thanks for the reminder.

I have not posted any new messages in your "falling away, apostasy" thread, because I was accused "of changing the subject".
I wonder if you could extend me the same courtesy here. Perhaps you could start a thread about teachers and the English language.

 

[PloughBoy]

I am sorry for "highjacking" your "Thread" about the word "kingdom" you was addressing. Something I do think that , grace is always is aloud to drift a little. But I thought I was kind concerning the Thread About "Falling Away". I waited until about maybe 15 to 20 posts had been posted. Then I ask the question kindly, " how far are we going to drift away from the Title thread"? Check the posts. I was ignored completely! Then after about twenty 20 more. I addressed you for "high jacking" the post.

Now this is what you said. Earlier in the Title Thread:
B-A-C said:
This has been debated at some length here on TalkJesus, I am reluctant to hi-jack Ploughboy's thread here.

I lean towards a "post-trib" rapture. I believe it will happen "after" the tribulation. I know this goes against what most believe. I actually "hope" they are right.

But you "Highjacked" it any way. You where reluctant , but you did it any how!

And I was kind. And I am not mad.

Well, maybe I was wrong, So I will apologize, for even bringing it up! And I apologize, in the name of "Jesus for highjacking your post, about teachers! My wrong, , please forgive me

 

[PloughBoy]

You ask a question in post #1. And here is the question you ask. I was trying to address your question.

B-A-C said:
But He says here... "the sons of the kingdom will be cast out". What? Jesus casting someone out? Out of what? You can't be "cast out" of something, unless your in something to begin with.
I can't be thrown out of a building, unless I'm in the building. I can't be thrown out of a club, unless I'm a member of the club.

 

[B-A-C]

1. It is a place in "holy scripture" that says: "the Falling Away" which falls into a certain " biblical terminology" which refers to the "Great Falling Away" the Great Apostasy. Then in other places in the Bible it use the words as "falling " away" like many will fall away from the truth or fall away from following Jesus. "English syntax" rules of placement. The Bible uses a lot of " compound complex syntax".

I believe we can always take the Bible at face value. Yes there are deeper spiritual meanings that not all can discern. But those deeper things never conflict with the obvious "plain" (out in open) things.
There is a danger of putting "too much spin" on certain things. Some put so much commentary into something that by the time they are done, it means almost the opposite of what the passage says.

2. Satan told Jesus: I will give you authority over all these "kingdom" and all their glory.
3. Jesus told the religious rulers, your father is the devil. In other words you are the sons of this kingdom..
4. Jesus will return and set up his kingdom.

All that is true.
Satan lost his authority when Jesus was crucified and resurrected. Jesus said all authority was given to Him now. ( Matt 28:18; )

Jesus told the Pharisees they were sons of hell, but I find nowhere he mentions "the kingdom" in that context, but even if he did, all the passage I gave above specifically mention "the kingdom of heaven".

Jesus will come and set up His physical kingdom during the millennial reign, and when the New Jerusalem comes down. His spiritual kingdom is already here.

Even if I put no spin or commentary on the passages above, they are obviously about...

11 I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

It doesn't mention the "kingdom of hell/Satan" anywhere in this passage. To say it is talking about this is to add something to the Bible that isn't there. It specifically says the "kingdom of heaven". Besides if they were already in the kingdom of darkness, why would
they be cast out of it? If they were already in the kingdom of darkness, why would they be cast out .. "into the darkness". That doesn't make sense. Context switching where the Bible doesn't switch context is dangerous.

By the way I was married to an English teacher for a long time, my daughter is an English teacher.

Matt 13:24; Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.

Matt 13:47; “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind

I specifically made sure the context of the kingdom in these passages was.. "the kingdom of heaven". To say they are about the kingdom of hell/darkness is to completely flip the meaning of Jesus's parables.
I've found when the Bible doesn't agree with people theologies, they try to change the Bible, add things that aren't there. Take away things that are there. The Bible warns about this also.

2 Tim 2:14; Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.
2 Tim 2:15; Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth.

... and now, back to our previously scheduled show.

 

[PloughBoy]

Where in the Bible where it says, Explicitly Satan lost his power, (authority). Here. And it never Says that "Implicitly" the only time Satan will loose His power on earth is when a Angel will bound Him and cast him into a pit for a 1000 years! A mere Angel is stronger than Satan. You do not understand the word term "Sovereignty of God" by the the words you print.

You said: Satan lost his authority when Jesus was crucified and resurrected. Jesus said all authority was given to Him now. ( Matt 28:18; )
Matt 28:18 did not say that! : what you use is what we call. "Eisegesis" to the written text of scripture.
You think you can just say any thing you want too! Not on my watch, I am calling you out!

That is false teaching! And I am not going to let you get by, by it. Other might, , but on this one, I am calling you out! You are wrong! And in error! Saying the Bible said something and it never did. You need to take a English class. And a reading class of the English language ! If you bold enough to teach God's people errors I am bold enough to call you out!
And I know you know nothing about Mythology and hermeneutics. And you do not care to even learn just a little! And you have call the art offensive by your actions, in which it is a gift from God unto His Children! And I say these words in the mighty name of Jesus, who is the WORD of GOD who has Always had All power for He is The Greator of All Heaven and The Comos! For He And The Father is One! And they never I say never been separated! And I bet my life on all of these words! That I have spoken in Honor of Him!

 

[PloughBoy]

Where in the Bible where it says, Explicitly Satan lost his power, (authority). Here. And it never Says that "Implicitly" the only time Satan will loose His power on earth is when a Angel will bound Him and cast him into a pit for a 1000 years! A mere Angel is stronger than Satan. You do not understand the word term "Sovereignty of God" by the the words you print.

You said: Satan lost his authority when Jesus was crucified and resurrected. Jesus said all authority was given to Him now. ( Matt 28:18; )
Matt 28:18 did not say that! : what you use is what we call. "Eisegesis" to the written text of scripture.
You think you can just say any thing you want too! Not on my watch, I am calling you out!

That is false teaching! And I am not going to let you get by, by it. Other might, , but on this one, I am calling you out! You are wrong! And in error! Saying the Bible said something and it never did. You need to take a English class. And a reading class of the English language ! If you bold enough to teach God's people errors I am bold enough to call you out!
And I know you know nothing about Mythology and hermeneutics. And you do not care to even learn just a little! And you have call the art offensive by your actions, in which it is a gift from God unto His Children! And I say these words in the mighty name of Jesus, who is the WORD of GOD who has Always had All power for He is The Greator of All Heaven and The Comos! For He And The Father is One! And they never I say never been separated! And I bet my life on all of these words! That I have spoken in Honor of Him!

Talking about people's Theology, you don't even know what theology is. And have the audacity to address it! Trying to deceive the children of God acting like you know something, How can you address something you have never been!

 

[Brother-Paul]

There is a danger of putting "too much spin" on certain things. Some put so much commentary into something that by the time they are done, it means almost the opposite of what the passage says.

Some are so set in their ways brother that at times a message has to have more detail, more explanation, and come from various angles.

Some are blinkered to the current way of doing things they cannot see the wood for the trees. Certainly not seeing the light due to the walls they worship behind.

What is the... church thread was a perfect example.

Peace be with you.

Jesus said, love one another as I love you.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

If someone slaps your right cheek offer the left also.

Peace be with you, I give you peace, not as the world gives, I give it u to you.

Shalom

 

[B-A-C]

John 13:35; “By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

Theology, you don't even know what theology is. And have the audacity to address it! Trying to deceive the children of God acting like you know something,

I can feel the love bro.

 

[Curtis]

Joh 6:36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

 

[PloughBoy]

John 13:35; “By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”



I can feel the love bro.

I know you do, and He is riding a white horse, and I know you know His Name!

 

[Born Again 2004]

Joh 6:36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

Is John 6:37 mean the same as OSAS?