baptized with water and the holy spirit

[Truthcomber]

B-A-C


You:
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.


Me: Go down a few verses.

Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Me: He is the firstborn of all creation because he is the firstborn from the dead. He is the firstborn from the old creation because he restores the old creation. He is the firstborn of the new creation.
Bible Gateway passage: Romans 8 - Mounce Reverse-Interlinear New Testament

Romans 8:19 (Mounce Reverse- Interlinear New Testament) For the creation eagerly awaits for the revealing of the sons of God…21 But the creation itself shall be set free from its bondage to decay into the glorious freedom of the sons of God.

Me: All things are new (2 Corinthians 5:17).


Col 1:15…image of the invisible God…
Click below and see.
Strong's Greek: 1504. εἰκών (eikón) -- an image, i.e. lit. statue, fig. representation
1504 eikṓn (from 1503 /eíkō, "be like") – properly, "mirror-like representation," referring to what is very close in resemblance (like a "high-definition" projection, as defined by the context). Image (1504 /eikṓn) then exactly reflects its source (what
it directly corresponds to). For example, Christ is the very image (1504 /eikṓn, supreme expression) of the Godhead (see 2 Cor 4:4; Col 1:15).

Me: Christ is the expression of the invisible God. No one has heard of seen him and cannot, not even the angels at the time of creation (John 5:37)

This is God expressing himself through his expression or Word. He is invisible in sight, hearing and every sense you can think of. He spoke through a Christophany.

Psalms 33:9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

 

[Truthcomber]

B-A-C

You:

Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him



Me:

Isa 44:24 Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens ALONE; that spreadeth abroad the earth BY MYSELF;

Isa 45:18 For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else.
.
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


Me: John 1:3 is not speaking of Jesus in Isaiah 44:24, Isaiah 45:18 that created all things. For God ALONE created all things. He did not created all things THROUGH a second party, the Messiah. We must be coherent here. So what does “all things have been created THROUGH HIM mean in Colossian 1:16?” Let the words of the bible interpret itself.

Prov 16:4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed HEIR of all things, (G1722 below on next post: on account of) whom also he made the worlds

Me: God made all things for himself. Christ is to inherit all things from God. That means Christ did not make all things in the OT.

 

[Truthcomber]

B-A-C


Colossians 1:16 Interlinear: because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,

click on the above link and look at the end of the verse. The interlinear bible says “all things through (1223)him and unto him were created”. Then click on 1223 above “through.

G1223: through, on account of, because of
Usage: (a) gen: through, throughout, by the instrumentality of, (b) acc: through, on account of, by reason of, for the sake of, because of.

It is more logically consistent to use "on account of or by reason of " for the definition of 1223.

Thus “all things on account of him and unto him were created”.

 

[Truthcomber]

B-A-C


Me: Now look at the beginning of Colossians 1:16 in the interlinear version. It says “in” him and not “by” him.

G1722 1722 en (a preposition) – properly, in (inside, within); (figuratively) "in the realm (sphere) of," as in the condition (state) in which something operates from the inside (within).
This is the main definition of 1722.en. This is confirmed by the very next verse and verse 19.

Colossians 1:17 He is before all things, and IN Him all things hold together.

Col 1:19; For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,

2 Cor 5:19 To wit, that God was IN Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation


Col 1:17 He is above (4253) all things, and in Him all things hold together.

4253.pro:
C: of superiority or pre-eminence (Winer's Grammar, 372 (349)): πρό πάντων, above all things, James 5:12; 1 Peter 4:8.

This is confirmed by the very next verse.
Col 1:18; He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.



Col 1:20; and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

 

[Truthcomber]

B -A-C

You: God existed before the heavens and the earth did, in fact He existed before anything that was created existed.

Me: True

John 1:1; In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2; He was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3; All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

No part of creation exists, that Jesus Himself did not create.
Jesus was God "in the beginning". Before He was manifested in the flesh and came to earth.

Me: Nope, the Word or expression of God, not Jesus was in the beginning with God. This was done through theopanys.

 

[Truthcomber]

B-A-C


You:

John 1:14; And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Me: The Word or expression of God expressed himself in flesh.

1 John 4:2 (interlinear) By this you know the spirit_____ of God Every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ is come in the

flesh having come______of God is


Me: There is no “come in the flesh” but “come in flesh”. “The” is italicized and thus is an added word. Jesus Christ is the name that our savior inherited from his father after he was raised from the dead.

 

[Truthcomber]

B-A-C


You:

John 1:14; And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.



Me: The Word or expression of God expressed himself in flesh.

1 John 4:2 (interlinear) By this you know the spirit_____ of God Every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ is come in the

flesh having come______of God is

Click on the link below;

1 John 4:2 Interlinear: in this know ye the Spirit of God; every spirit that doth confess Jesus Christ in the flesh having come, of God it is,

Me: There is no “come in the flesh” but “come in flesh”. “The” is italicized and thus is an added word. Jesus Christ is the name that our savior inherited from his father after he was raised from the dead.

 

[Truthcomber]

B-A-C


Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: 4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I (me: begotten (me:birth) thee? ) And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Me: This is when the Messiah became fully the son of God, not in the OT.

 

[Truthcomber]

B-A-C

You:


John 3:16; "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

He "became" flesh, but He wasn't always flesh. He wasn't created, He is the only begotten Son. He always existed.
Jesus is of course... God.



Me: How can the Messiah be born and at the same time eternal. This is a contradiction.

 

[Truthcomber]

B-A-C

You:

Tit 2:13; looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

2 Pet 1:1; Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:



Me: The Messiah came in the name of his Father, Jesus Christ.

Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.

 

[Truthcomber]

B-A-C


You: None of us was redeemed by a man who was only human.

Psa 49:7; No man can by any means redeem his brother Or give to God a ransom for him—
Psa 49:15; But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol, For He will receive me. Selah.


Me:
1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead

Me: The Word or spirit (Romans 8:27: mind of God in that spirit) bonded as one with the human mind and heart of the Messiah. Thus, we have THE Son of God. God is himself and his Son (John 10:30).

 

[Truthcomber]

B-A-C


You: It is God who redeems.

Heb 1:8; But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD (me: G2316), IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

Even the Father calls Jesus God.



Me: Click on the following link:
Strong's Greek: 2316. θεός (theos) -- God, a god

theos: God, a god

Original Word: θεός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine; Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: theos
Phonetic Spelling: (theh'-os)
Definition: God, a god
Usage: (a) God, (b) a god, generally



John 10: 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods (G2316)? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Me: The same Greek word Theos is used in both Heb 1:8 and John 10:34 in reference to men. Hebrews 1:8 corresponds with Psalms 82:6-7.



Psalms 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods (H430 Elohim); and all of you are children of the most High. 7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.


Click on the two links below:
Psalm 82:6 Interlinear: I -- I have said, 'Gods ye are, And sons of the Most High -- all of you,
Strong's Hebrew: 430. אֱלֹהִים (elohim) -- God, god

H 430: divine (1), divine being (1), exceedingly (1), God (2326), god (45), God's (14), goddess (2), godly (1), gods (204), great (2), judges (3), mighty (2), rulers (1), shrine* (1)

Me: I believe that Psalms 82:6 is addressing angels given rule over the countries of the earth through the divine council--another topic. Click on the following link:

Divine Council: Heresy or Biblical?

In this post we’re going to look at the divine council doctrine, to see whether it’s biblical or heretical. Note: All scripture quotes are from the ESV unless otherwise specified. The Divine Counci…

glintrueblog.wordpress.com

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

 

[Sue D.]

Sue T

You: I’ve looked up 1 Timothy 3:16 “And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit // seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.” So What is wrong with the 1 Timothy passage other than you don't agree with it? And you call that a lie?!

1 Timothy 3:16 Interlinear: and, confessedly, great is the secret of piety -- God was manifested in flesh, declared righteous in spirit, seen by messengers, preached among nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory!
Me: If you click on the link above from Strong’s concordance, you will NOT FIND “GOD was manifest in the flesh but “WHO was manifest in the flesh”. The “who” is referring to Christ, not God. Click on the above link and see. This is a deliberate lie by the Trinitarian translator. All the other versions DO NOT have “GOD was manifest in the flesh”. Click the link below and see.

You You cannot find one verse in the OT where the son of God existed there. Again, click on the below link and see.
Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

I may not be from Missouri, but you have show me—which you have not.

What does being from Missouri or Not have to do with anything.

I have a Strong's Concordance in front of me. 1 Timothy 3:16 -- looking up 'God' I find 1 Tim.3:15 and 16 with #2316 listed. So I go over to the Greek section and find #2316 = theo -- a deity , espec. the supreme Divinity -- exceeding , God, godly . godward.

The Strong's I have is the New Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible // Greek and Hebrew Dictionaries // Strong's Numbering System.

And looking it up in my Bible -- the NKJV -- the previous verse is talking about God -- the footnote at the bottom of my Bible says that NU-Text reads 'Who'. Which is referring back to the previous verse talking about God. There is no Christ to be referring back to.

Sounds like you simply don't appreciate that this verse doesn't agree with you. And "This is a deliberate lie by the Trinitarian translator." Is coming on a bit strong. It Does happen to be God's Word.

 

[Truthcomber]

Sue D

You: What does being from Missouri or Not have to do with anything.

Me: It is just a saying. People from Missouri are skeptical just about everything and you need show them proof all the time.

 

[Truthcomber]

Sue D

You: I have a Strong's Concordance in front of me. 1 Timothy 3:16 -- looking up 'God' I find 1 Tim.3:15 and 16 with #2316 listed. So I go over to the Greek section and find #2316 = theo -- a deity , espec. the supreme Divinity -- exceeding , God, godly . godward.

The Strong's I have is the New Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible // Greek and Hebrew Dictionaries // Strong's Numbering System.

And looking it up in my Bible -- the NKJV -- the previous verse is talking about God -- the footnote at the bottom of my Bible says that NU-Text reads 'Who'. Which is referring back to the previous verse talking about God. There is no Christ to be referring back to.

Me: You are looking up the definition of words that are in the KJV and NKJV. Of course they are both going to have “God” as one of the spurious words in 1 Timothy 3:16. You can look up the other versions and “God “ is not there. Better yet, look up the verse in the interlinear bible without man’s tampering with it. Why don't you copy and paste it here.

 

[Truthcomber]

Sue T


Click on the link following. It is from Strong’s exhaustive concordance. It is the interlinear version with the Greek text. It doesn’t have the word “God” in 1 Timothy 3:16.

1 Timothy 3:16 Interlinear: and, confessedly, great is the secret of piety -- God was manifested in flesh, declared righteous in spirit, seen by messengers, preached among nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory!



Or click on the Strong's Lexicon link below.

1 Timothy 3:16 Lexicon: By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.

It also does not have the word “God” in verse 16.



Or click on the Mounce Reverse-Interlinear New Testament (MOUNCE) link that follows
Bible Gateway passage: 1 Timothy 3:16 - Mounce Reverse-Interlinear New Testament


“God” is not there in the original Greek period.


Or click on the parallel versions. Most versions do not have the “God” in them.
1 Timothy 3:16 By common confession, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in the flesh, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was proclaimed among the nations, was believed in throughout the world, was taken up in glory.

New American Standard Bible
1 Timothy 3:16 By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.

Godliness is the antecedent of “He who” here in this version. Actually, I believe a better translation of ‘he who ” would be 3739 would be “which”.

1 Timothy 3:16 By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: which was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.

 

[Truthcomber]

Sue D


You: Sounds like you simply don't appreciate that this verse doesn't agree with you. And "This is a deliberate lie by the Trinitarian translator." Is coming on a bit strong. It Does happen to be God's Word.

Me: It is a deliberate, malicious, sinful, boldface lie by the translators. It does doesn’t agree with God’s word. It is horse feathers. It is of Satan.


2 Cor 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

 

[Sue D.]

@Truthcomber -- i'M REALLY VERY CLOSE TO ENDING THIS CONVERSATION -- MY KEBOARD IS HAVING PROBLEMS. iT DOES THIS ONCE IN A WHILE -- THE ALL- CAPS/ RATHER THAN SMALL LETTERS.

iN FACT -- i AM GOING TO END 'THIS' CONVERSATION.

yOU DON'T WANT TO ACCEPT THE TRINITY -- GOD THE FATHER, jESUS cHRIST hIS sON AND THE hOLY SPIRIT.

rEAD THE FIRST CHAPTER OF hEBREWS

 

[Truthcomber]

Sue D


I believe that Colossians 1 and Hebrew 1 go hand in hand. Hebrews 1 parallels Colossians 1. I had answered B-A-C in this regard. Please read the posts 102-114 on this page immediately above.

 

[Sue D.]

i'M CONTINUING BUT -- i WAS ALSO GOOGLING INTERLINEAR BIBLES. AMONG OTHER ARTICLES WAS "WHY TO AVOID USING INTERLINEAR BIBLES" -- FOR ONE THING THEY GIVE A PERSON A FALSE SENSE OF KNOWING hEBREW / gREEK. AND THEY DO GIVE A LINE BY LINE INTERPRETATION OF A PASSAGE. bUT i CAN DO THE SAME THING WITH MY sTRONG'S CONCORDANCE. aND TO mE -- IT ALSO SUGGESTS THAT A PERSON nEEDS TO GO BACK TO THE ORIGINAL TO GET THE REALLY TRUE TRANSLATION.

aND AN INTERLINEAR bIBLE IS SIMPLY SOMEONE ELSE COMPILING A BIBLE. -- SO -- i USE A sTRONG'S CONCORDANCE -- MY HUSBAND GOT ONE IN bIBLE COLLEGE. i RARELY USE IT BECAUSE i HAPPEN TO TRUST THE ENGLISH TRANSLATION. aND THE PRESENT -DAY kjv IS AN UP-DATED FROM THE 1ST ONE.

a RETIRED PASTOR SAID THAT LOTS OF TIMES WHEN A PERSON GOES BACK TO THE ORIGINAL -- IT'S TO 'PROVE' THAT THE ENGLISH ISN'T REALLY CORRECT. BUT THEY FIND THAT THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE TRANSLATION HAS DONE A VERY GOOD JOB. tHEY JUST DON'T LIKE WHAT THEY'RE READING.

fOR SOME REASON -- YOU WANT TO BELIEVE THAT jESUS cHRIST ONLY CAME INTO EXISTENCE WHEN HE WAS BORN IN THE nEW tESTAMENT. tHAT HE ATTAINED 'DEITY' WHEN HE DIED ON THE CROSS FOR OUR SINS. bUT THAT HE DIDN'T EXIST IN THE OLD tESTAMENT.

wHEN IT'S POINTED OUT TO YOU THAT HE dID -- YOU TRY TO FIND REASONS TO SAY THAT VERSES ARE A BAD TRANSLATION IN SOME WAY.

BUT, BACK TO hEBREWS 1:10 -- THE ENTIRE CHAPTER. jESUS cHRIST DID EXIST IN THE OLD tESTAMENT AND IN gENESIS 1:26 "LET 'US' MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE. tHE ENTIRE GODHEAD DID EXIST BACK THEN. jUST LIKE HEBREWS SAYS. AND JOHN 1:1 -3 SAME THING.