Correct. It is through water baptism that a person receives the Holy Spirit for regeneration. It is by prayer and laying on of hands that a person receives the fullness of the Spirit.
Baptism of the holy ghost
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Correct. It is through water baptism that a person receives the Holy Spirit for regeneration. It is by prayer and laying on of hands that a person receives the fullness of the Spirit.
RJ
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- With the first two references, they were Old Testament , Old Covenant events and have nothing to do with the New Covenant and New Testament.
- With your reference to Jesus Blood, that is exactly right: Nothing but the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses you spiritually...water can only wash off the dirt from the outside not the inside where Jesus dwells!
To the contrary, 1 Peter 3:21 says the water is not to wash off dirt:
1 Peter 3:21 And that water is a picture of baptism, which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body, but as a response to God from a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
The purpose of water baptism is not to wash off dirt. It is a response to God from a clean conscience, and is done to fulfill what God requires. And as 1 Peter 3:21 says, it saves us. " It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ." means that the Holy Spirit applies the resurrection of Christ to our beings as we respond to God by being water baptized.
Without water baptism we have not fulfilled God's requirement for righteousness (Matt 3:15). Even Jesus was water baptised to fulfill God's requirement, and He was perfect and the Son of God - so it is hard for us to argue against the importance of water baptism. After Jesus was water baptized, God said He was well pleased with Him (vs 17). So the act of water baptism is something pleasing to God.
The lesson from the Old Testament is that God uses physical objects to convey spiritual realities and spiritual power. This did not stop in the Old Testament. In Acts 19:2 even God used garments of clothing to heal people. So God can act through the physical water of baptism, and the water is not just bath water.
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RJ
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- So God can act through the physical water of baptism, and the water is not just bath water. Sure he can, after all omnipotence has no bounds. My point is, which you will disagree, is that God can be and is powerful enough "to act" with or with out water.
- Of all the million possibilities for a person , who is ready to receive grace from God and where there is no water available, are you saying with out the water, God puts that person on hold or dis-allows that person to be saved?
If there is no water available, I am sure God will understand and know that. But this is not about the availability of water, or whether or not God is powerful enough. This is about simple obedience to God's requirements.
If there is water available, God will save the person but He won't be well pleased with them, because refusing water baptism is disobedience, and not even the Lord Jesus was willing to disregard it. Jesus was the only person who did not have to be water baptized - He was perfect, and yet He submitted Himself to God's requirement, no doubt as an example for us. So those who call themselves followers of Jesus yet refuse to be water baptized, are we following Christ? There are certain matters which God asks us to observe, one is partaking of bread and wine, and the other is water baptism. God does not ask us to observe Easter and Christmas, yet some churches are more intent on keeping these festive occasions, than regular communion and water baptism that God actually commands.
Acts 2:37: Peter's words pierced their hearts, and they said to him and to the other apostles, "Brothers, what should we do?"
Acts 2:38 "Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
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RJ
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- If there is water available, God will save the person but He won't be well pleased with them, because refusing water baptism is disobedience,
- Well I am glad you exactly how God works.
- I am assuming you meant if no water was available. Phew, I am glad I am still saved then, he he! I must have mistaken you for one of those who were hard fast to the rule : no water-no salvation!..that's a relief.
- I respect your wanting to be obedient and I have never chastised the act, only that it is a must for salvation. In fact it can be a wonderful, fulfilling event.
- Bondage is my concern and it comes in many forms: you must be water baptised, you must confess everyday, you must speak in tongues, you must follow all the commandments and the list goes on. All are biblical but , to the point of being required for salvation, I disagree. I have seen too many that are taught you must do one or all of these are you are not saved. The bondage comes in, O.K. I have done it but nothing has changed in me...It must not have taken, if it didn't work the first time do it again or God doesn't love me, I must not be one of the "Elect" and that list goes on as well; I have heard them all.
- If God asks me to be water baptised, I will do it...I am not too sure how that works since I have already received Christ in me but as an outward expression of my faith and if it will help bring others to Jesus, I am O.K. with that. I will never say it is mandatory.
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B-A-C
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Well, there seems to be some disagreement on how and when we receive it, but everyone agree that need it and we receive it.
So rather than arguing about how and when, I ask again...
What is this power? How does it help us? How does it help others? Can it cause non believers to do certain things?
For example...
1 Cor 12:3; Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
Yet we in Matt 27:11; Matt 27:29; Matt 27:37; Mark 15:9; Luke 23:37; John 19:19-22; non-believers called Jesus "King of the Jews".
Did the Holy Spirit cause them to say this even though they weren't believers? Many times in the Old Testament, God used non-believers to fulfill his purpose.
We see that some people who call Jesus Lord weren't people following Jesus. Matt 7:22;
We see that one of the main purposes of the Holy Spirit is to edify the body.
1 Cor 12:7; But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
1 Cor 12:12; For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ.
So how are you doing this today?
So rather than arguing about how and when, I ask again...
What is this power? How does it help us? How does it help others? Can it cause non believers to do certain things?
For example...
1 Cor 12:3; Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
Yet we in Matt 27:11; Matt 27:29; Matt 27:37; Mark 15:9; Luke 23:37; John 19:19-22; non-believers called Jesus "King of the Jews".
Did the Holy Spirit cause them to say this even though they weren't believers? Many times in the Old Testament, God used non-believers to fulfill his purpose.
We see that some people who call Jesus Lord weren't people following Jesus. Matt 7:22;
We see that one of the main purposes of the Holy Spirit is to edify the body.
1 Cor 12:7; But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
1 Cor 12:12; For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ.
So how are you doing this today?
After the resurrection we have to give an account to the Lord Jesus about how we lived our life. All the matters not essential to salvation, such as did we get water baptized, did we go to church regularly, did we help the poor person who asked us for money back in April 1972, did we use the gifts of the Spirit, did we receive the baptism of the Spirit, how did we treat our spouse, our children, our parents, our neighbor - these are all reviewed then - not for salvation but for reward or punishment.
James: How do you think we will be punished by God in heaven?
RJ
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- Do,do,do...No,no,no! You have all these works to get saved...God said no to works as a prerequisite to salvation, only "yes" to works after salvation which is now!
- I guess you do all these things perfectly, without missing one point, ever....24/7?
- The true "Born Again" Christian has already been resurrected with Christ...Satin " Can't Stop This"!
Matt 8:12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
jAMES, this is talking about those who will go to hell, right? I am asking how will christians be punished in heaven?
Let me clarify what it means to be "born again". To be born again means to receive "new birth", which is to be baptized. Baptism signifies dying and being resurrected with Christ. That is what it means to be "born again".
We are only very truly "born again" if we have been baptized by water and the Spirit:
John 3:5 “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
From Acts 10:47-48, both water baptism and Spirit baptism are necessary.
Some say "I've already received the Spirit so why do I need to be water baptized".
In Acts 10:47 also were some people who received the Spirit, and then were required to be baptized in water in verse 48.
Water baptism is more important than Spirit baptism, because water baptism identifies us with Christ's death and resurrection, and gives us entrance into the Kingdom of God. Whereas Spirit baptism gives us the power and gifts for ministry.
The Israelites were baptized twice as followers of Moses, once in the cloud and also in the sea: 1 Cor 10:2 In the cloud and in the sea, all of them were baptized as followers of Moses.
Christians are baptized twice as followers of Christ, once in water, and once in the Spirit.
In the book of Acts, the apostles always made sure a person was baptized in water and in the Spirit. If a person only had water baptism, they were also baptized in the Spirit. If a person only had Spirit baptism, they were then baptized in water.
Spirit baptism was normally conducted by laying on of hands (Acts 8:16). Acts 8:16 also proves that water and Spirit baptism are two separate events. Even though the Spirit was poured out at Pentecost, these believers were only water baptized and yet had to be prayed for with laying on of hands , to receive the Spirit. This shows that Spirit baptism is not automatic at salvation or at water baptism.
I cover this partly in another interesting thread regarding the "outer darkness". But I summarize here.
Matthew 8:11 is the feasting in the New Jerusalem (Rev 19:9).
Matthew 8:12 is those cast out of the New Jerusalem and the place of feasting.
Also with the person who didn't have a wedding garment at the wedding, was cast into outer darkness.
This is not to be cast out of Heaven into Hell for destruction. This is to be cast out of a wedding banquet for punishment.
Christians won't be in heaven where God is now, that's a worldly concept, they use that in Hollywood. The Bible teaches that they will be in the New Jerusalem which is on the earth. See Revelation 21. The "pearly gates" which are so often associated with heaven and puffy clouds, are actually on earth in the New Jerusalem: Rev 21:21.
The New Jerusalem is a place full of light, there is no darkness- Revelation 21:11, 23; 22:5
So to be cast into outer darkness is to be cast out of the New Jerusalem. But that doesn't mean a person cannot be received back into it - they will still be on the earth, but in a dark place.
To be cast into outer darkness is to be temporarily banished from the Lord's presence with the saints (in the New Jerusalem). This is the punishment. The purpose is for restoration, not termination. The purpose of the lake of fire is termination, or the "second death" - this is for satan and evil angels, demons, and unbelievers.
I believe in once saved always saved. But I do not believe how we live our life will go unpunished or unrewarded. The Bible teaches that God is not unjust and that He will repay. The punishment of believers is to handle the situation where there is a believer who has not lived right on Earth. They are still saved from destruction, but they won't get away with their disobedience either - this idea is in Matthew 18:34, which explains that God will punish believers who have not been merciful to others. Punish (by outer darkness), but not necessarily destroy (by hellfire).
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DHC
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Hello James.
When you say 'how we live' I take that to mean the sanctification process that we
undergo. Christians who do not undertake the sanctification process do not enter
the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 7-21:23
Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he
who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on
that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out
demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them,
‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’
These are believers in the Gospel and they display the power of the Holy Spirit.
They are not saved James, 'And then I will declare to them, I never knew you; depart from Me'.
Sanctification is initiated by God but the recipient must exercise the life of love.
Not all who call on Jesus are saved, only those who obey the command of Jesus.
John 15:17
This I command you, that you love one another.
RJ
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Well, we will just have to agree to disagree, won't we!...Peace and love brother!
B.T.W., since you are teaching here and for the sake of other users of this post, I see that you use Johns 3:5 but fail to use John3:6, why is that since verse 6 is an accurate description from Jesus to Nicodemus what verse 5 means, or do you have a different interpretation of verse 6?
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James: Thanks for your response. However I don't think a christian can be cast in to outer darkness. We will just agree to disagree. In kindness and brotherly love I appreciate your opinion. I find it interesting to see how others think about these kind of issues, thank you.
Verse 6 is not a description or clarification or repetition of verse 5. Verse 6 is a response to the question in verse 4 - He is telling Nicodemus that He is not talking about physical birth.
Verse 5 is an explanation of what Jesus means by "born again" in verse 3 - He tells Nicodemus that to be born again is to be born of water (baptism) and born of the Spirit.
Verse 6 is Jesus telling Nicodemus that He is not talking about physical birth, but spiritual birth.
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