Baptism of the holy ghost

[truth speaker]

The question===>when john the baptist was baptizing in the wilderness he said there was one greater than he that would baptize us with the holy ghost and fire.

I have spoke to alot of people and have gotten very different views on this matter and i would love to hear more on this baptism

 

[B-A-C]

When John the Baptist was preaching and baptizing, the Holy Spirit hadn't come to the body of the church yet. (John 7:39; John 16:7; )
(John himself and Jesus had the Holy Spirit since birth). Luke 1:15;
Many Christian denominations believe you receive the Holy Spirit upon receiving Salvation (Jesus).
Some do not. The Assemblies of God for example believe the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is a separate event from receiving the Holy Spirit.
They will often cite Acts 2 as the basis for this.
They even go as far as to say that if you do not speak in tongues at least once, you have not received the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I myself do not believe they are two separate events. Either you have the Holy Spirit, or you don't. There is no middle ground or half-way.
It's interesting that in Acts 2, it mentions 3 specific things.
1. A mighty rushing wind.
2. Visible flames of fire above their heads.
3. Speaking in earthly languages that were understood by people of those nationalities.
Yet, none of those things are required by the Assemblies of God. Only that you speak in tongues. (not necessarily an earthly language).

In 1 Cor 12, it mentions the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Things like tongues, interpreting, prophesying, healing, working miracles, etc...
Some believe that even though you have the Holy Spirit in you, you cannot work the gifts of the Holy Spirit until you have been "baptized" into the Holy Spirit.
Other denominations believe the gifts of Spirit do not apply anymore, some Baptist denominations say they aren't in effect anymore.

I know of no denomination that believes you have to be baptized in the Holy Spirit in order to have the fruits of the Spirit (Gal 5; )
I personally believe it isn't the gifts that determine your maturity as a Christian, but the fruits.

As far as being baptized in fire. I've heard different explanations. Some say this is really flames (as in Acts 2:3; )
Others say this is just the fire of life and experiences. Being tested by fire so to speak, as to see how you are living and what rewards you will receive.

You don't see many healing preachers anymore since John G. Lake and Kathryn Kuhlman. But I suppose many are still around.
I have been in many charismatic/pentecostal church services where tongues and prophesies have been given. This seems to be a uncomfortable thing for Christians who aren't used to it.

Some say once you've received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, you are given a special prayer language, ( Rom 8:26; )
Some believe the Holy Spirit is speaking, others believe it is you yourself doing the moanings and groanings listed here.

Acts 19:1-6; is another example of Christians receiving the Holy Spirit some time after they were saved.
The debate here is, does it happen this way to Christians today? Or was it simply because the Holy Spirit wasn't given to believers until Pentecost?

 

[james1523]

The implication is that Baptism in the Holy Spirit is greater than the baptism in water.
Now which baptism are most denominations concerned about? The baptism in water.
They disregard the Spirit entirely.
Therefore they lack the genuine power for Christian life and service.

 

[B-A-C]

Now which baptism are most denominations concerned about? The baptism in water.
They disregard the Spirit entirely.

I don't disagree, but it seems many believe they already have the Holy Spirit because they are saved.
I wonder if there are scriptures to support this?
Luke 11:13; seems to say it's something we have to ask for?

 

[james1523]

I don't disagree, but it seems many believe they already have the Holy Spirit because they are saved.
I wonder if there are scriptures to support this?
Luke 11:13; seems to say it's something we have to ask for?

They are correct they have received the Spirit - without the Spirit we cannot be saved. But they are incorrect in thinking they don't need a subsequent baptism of the Spirit:
Acts 1:5-8 "For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” - clearly, baptism in the Spirit is not usually obtained by being baptised in water. And here lies the confusion - baptismal water does not represent the Holy Spirit, it represents the waters of death, by which we die to our old life. The Spirit is represented by the dove, who rested upon Christ after His water baptism, not during it.
Baptism of the Spirit is not for salvation, but for Christian service.
Receiving the Spirit at salvation is for changing and transforming who we are (regeneration and transformation), and receiving the baptism of the Spirit later is to receive the power for what God wants us to do.

 

[B-A-C]

And here lies the confusion - baptismal water does not represent the Holy Spirit, it represents the waters of death, by which we die to our old life. The Spirit is represented by the dove, who rested upon Christ after His water baptism, not during it.

Again, I agree with much of this. So the obvious two questions then become...
How do we receive the BAPTISM of the Holy Spirit, and how do we know we received it?
How is the BAPTISM of the Holy Spirit different from simply receiving the Holy Spirit?

Clearly people can be without the Holy Spirit.
Jude 1:19; These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit.

1 Jn 3:24; The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
1 Jn 4:13; By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.
1 Pet 1:2; according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
Jas 4:5; Or do you think that the Scripture speaks to no purpose: "He jealously desires the Spirit which He has made to dwell in us"?
Tit 3:5; He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
2 Thes 2:13; But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
2 Tim 1:14; Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you.
1 Thes 4:8; So, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you.
Eph 4:30; Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Eph 5:18; And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit,
1 Cor 3:16; Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
Luke 11:13; "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?"
2 Cor 6:16; Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Psa 139:7; Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence?


Psa 51:11; Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.

 

[farout]

Of all the topics in the Bible and in the Christian life no subject brings tempers to a boil like the topics of Holy Spirit. The other topic that tempers will bring steam to a fog is, Once saved Alwasy saved. I often wonder if the Holy Spirit grieves the way these subjects bring such furry and hot tempers and hot anger. Are not we in all things being said to Glorify Jesus? I wonder how it is a group of people can read the same passage's and even in the same translation, and yet come up with totally different opinions. Just watch the people who onced seemed like mature loving, kind Christ like brother's and sister's turn on each other, as if the other "side" was part of satans army against the Bible. What I say is true, just look at some of the past topics like these on older TJ threads. I am no different, surely I too have "stuck up for Gods WORD" and "defended the truth". It is so easy to be become so emotionally worked up, as if we were defenders of the only true meaning of the WORD, and only "I" have the real meaning of what ever topic the thread is about. I know, I too have been told by Chad to cool my jets. And atleast a couple of times Chad was right, maybe more. Anyone of has the potential to become the only one with the real true meaning of whatever the topic is.
Here is my point, jesus said the world would know we are His follower's by the way we "LOVE" each other. Hech we all have met someone we hope we never see in "real life". Sometimes Iam not to loving with others that don't agree with my perfect understanding of the Bible. After all I have been to Seminary and know it all, right? NOT. When anyone of us think we know it all, or don't respect someone we think or feel is really off kilter, it's really me with that attutude that is being unlike Christ! I hate to admit when I am wrong, and who doesn't? I have been very mean at times. I am truely sorry I was. I can say it's the medicine I am on the deal with some serious heath issues, and it really is. But It's still a problem of showing the love of God that's deep inside that he has given us that we must show no matter what else that is far more true.
We are not in a fight for life in these threads. We are only sharing what we have come to believe what the Scripture says. Could I be wrong? Maybe, could you be wrong? Generally in my humble opinion, (ha ha) i most likely think I am right your wrong, (not) and I must defend the Word of God or .........what? TJ will still be here, you and me will still be alive, God willing. But what kind of impression of myself have i left behind? Have I hurt or put down someone to the point where they will ignore me, or evene worse will the a person avoid me completely? Or is it possible a person just struggling to see if they really believe there is a Jesus Christ who loves them. just might by someone with a "snarky attitude", or a "I know it all attitude" jus might cause that struggling person to shipwreck their faith, and say the heck with it.
That's all I have to say, maybe this might help a few of us before we post something that does not reflect jesus Christ as he really is.....Love. Blessings TJ friends. farout

 

[B-A-C]

I have been very mean at times. I am truely sorry I was.

I think we've all been there. ( I know I have )
A humble spirit and a contrite heart God does not despise. ( Psa 51 )

Back to the question....
Being baptized in water is easy. We go to (beach, pool, river, tub, whatever... ) and get dunked in water. ( Some denominations sprinkle you with water )
So how do I get "dunked in the Spirit?", or is being baptized in the Spirit a necessary separate step?
Did Acts 2 happen because no believers on earth had the Holy Spirit at that time? ( Jesus had already ascended, and John the Baptist was already beheaded ).

I think this is important. Because if Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven, ( Acts 2:33; ) Then who is here on the Earth?
The Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is what sanctifies us, gives us power to over come sin. The Holy Spirit gives us power to heal and do miracles.
The Holy Spirit is our intercessor in our prayers. Can you be saved and not have the Holy Spirit? ( I personally don't think so ).
The Bible says we can quench, grieve, and resist the Holy Spirit, perhaps there are times when he remains silent and does not talk to us?

The Bible says if we led by the Spirit, we aren't under the law of sin. Can you be led by the Spirit if you don't have the Spirit?

 

[RJ]

I don't disagree, but it seems many believe they already have the Holy Spirit because they are saved.
I wonder if there are scriptures to support this?
Luke 11:13; seems to say it's something we have to ask for?

If I may:

• Having the Holy Spirit and being saved or the same are they not? John 3: 3-7, you can't have one with out the other. Jesus said to Nicodemus you have two births your physical birth and you must have you spiritual birth to enter the Kingdom of God. Baptism by the Holy Spirit and receiving the Holy Spirit are the same.
• Certainly anyone who ask will be saved But I don't think that means that you have to say exactly: " God Save Me"! But there is many ways of saying the same thing..." Call upon the Lord and be saved"!
• As I recall, I told God that I was sinful, that I was missing something, felt empty and it must be Jesus Christ and asked him to heal me....before I knew what happened , I was on my way!
• After many days of reading the bible and listening to the radio, I came to believe that I had received Jesus Spirit that very day that I ask for healing...and I never looked back!
• B.T.W. , there was no water involved! I have a friend that says he is worried about me and keeps asking me to come to his church and get wet.....It can be a beautiful thing water baptism but, I think he is misguided!

 

[B-A-C]

Having the Holy Spirit and being saved or the same are they not? John 3:3-7, you can't have one with out the other. Jesus said to Nicodemus you have two births your physical birth and you must have you spiritual birth to enter the Kingdom of God. Baptism by the Holy Spirit and receiving the Holy Spirit are the same.

I agree they are the same. However, the passage in John 3 is another place where scripture interpretation seems to be diverse.
Some say the the water is birth water, others say the water is water baptism.
In other words some would say, you must be born naturally and you must be born spiritually.
Others would say, you must get baptized in water, and you must get baptized in the Spirit.

B.T.W. , there was no water involved! I have a friend that says he is worried about me and keeps asking me to come to his church and get wet.....It can be a beautiful thing water baptism but, I think he is misguided!

I can appreciate that water baptism doesn't save us, nor does it wash away our sins. But it was something Jesus did, so why would you not want to do it?

 

[james1523]

Again, I agree with much of this. So the obvious two questions then become...
How do we receive the BAPTISM of the Holy Spirit, and how do we know we received it?
How is the BAPTISM of the Holy Spirit different from simply receiving the Holy Spirit?

Simply receiving the Holy Spirit is to receive Him into our spirit or heart.....
1 Cor 6:17 But whoever is united with the Lord is one with him in spirit.
Gal 4:6 Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."

...by which we can be changed from within and filled from within:
John 4:14 - but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

This is like drinking a glass of water, it goes into us, quenches our thirst, nourishes us, and helps us grow. This was prophesied in Ezekial 36:27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules..


Baptism means immersion and it means to be "immersed" in the Spirit, so that our whole being is "wet" with His Person, power and presence -
This is like standing in the rain and being soaked with water - it doesn't change us from within, but it clothes us with power. Luke 24:49 "But stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high". This was prophesied in Joel 2:28 "“And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh".
Even the Old Testament reveals two different experiences of the Spirit - God putting His Spirit within us (Ezekial), and God pouring out His Spirit (Joel).

All of the doctrinal arguments and debates in Christianity today is due to confusion between these two experiences. There are at least 3 misconceptions in Pentecostal Christianity about the Spirit:
- That to be filled with the Spirit means to receive power from on high and speak in tongues and act drunk. It doesn't. Being filled is an inward matter and is caused by or results in making music in our hearts to the Lord and thankfulness (Eph 5:18-20). Also, it does not lead to drunken behavior but to sobriety.
The assumption is that because the Spirit is to replace being filled with wine, then the Spirit must replicate the feelings that alcohol gives - it doesn't. Filled with wine leads to loss of control and loss of mental faculties, but being filled with the Spirit results in a clear, pure, controlled and sober "mind of Christ".

- That we must continually receive power from on high every Sunday - there is no indication in the Bible that the experience can be repeated more than once, once seemed enough for everyone in the New Testament.
- Unless we speak in tongues we have not been baptized in the Spirit - tongues is a possible sign, but not the only sign, of being baptized in the Spirit.

Some signs of being baptized in the Spirit are:
Acts 10:46 - tongues and praising God.
Joel 2:28 - prophecy, dreams and visions. - i.e. inspired or revealed knowledge

We can get the baptism of the Spirit by much prayer: Acts 1:14 , Luke 11:13


In the Old Testament, the saints could only have the Spirit poured out upon them. There was no change from within. Examples are King Saul, David and Solomon. They had God's power and God's guidance, but in an outward manner. In their heart they were unregenerate men. At the time, God did not pour out His Spirit upon all flesh, as prophesied in Joel, but only His specially chosen servants. The Holy Spirit could not dwell inside anyone because the Spirit was not yet the Spirit of Christ but only the Spirit of God. After Christ died for us, He sent His Spirit, so that we could become children of God, by receiving the Spirit of the Son. And, now God is willing to pour out His Spirit upon all flesh, Jew or Gentile, not just His chosen few.

 

[RJ]

I agree they are the same. However, the passage in John 3 is another place where scripture interpretation seems to be diverse.
Some say the the water is birth water, others say the water is water baptism.
In other words some would say, you must be born naturally and you must be born spiritually.
Others would say, you must get baptized in water, and you must get baptized in the Spirit.




I can appreciate that water baptism doesn't save us, nor does it wash away our sins. But it was something Jesus did, so why would you not want to do it?

• Water baptism (Mark 16:16) is a common by product of belief, just as good deeds are a natural result of faith (James 2:14-26). However, one is not saved by baptism and good deeds; one is saved by belief and faith, then you receive or are baptised by Jesus himself, the Holy Spirit. Remember, John said that I bapstise by water but there comes one greater than I who baptises by the Spirit. Make no mistake, it is the Jesus spirit in you that separates you from the non-believer and gets you past the "Pearly Gates"!
• Note that the last portion of Mark 16:16 says that "whoever does not believe will be condemned." It does not say that "whoever is not baptised will be condemned."
• In your reference to John, please look at all of John 3:3-6. Look at 5 and 6 together, how can there be any disagreement? 5 says water and the spirit and Jesus follows with an explanation in verse 6: 5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, [SUB]e[/SUB] unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 "That which is born of the flesh is [SUB]f[/SUB] flesh ( born of water, the womb), and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
• I see no diverse interpretation! Pretty dogmatic to me.
• I have no, never had, a disagreement with doing it. But what I disagree with is it being required for salvation as many do, and that can lead to some serious bondage to untruth. If a water baptism doesn't have the desired effect. People can and do feel, "it didn't work", " I am not saved" and God must not love me...etc.
• I can say with out a doubt, for me, if any interpretation of scripture or the outcome of any doctrine can , in anyway, lead to a negative thought or circumstance, it is not of God!

 

[james1523]

John 3 refers to water baptism (John's ministry) and the Spirit (Christ's ministry).
Water baptism signifies the death of the old creation. Christ's ministry is about bringing people into the new creation.
Regeneration involves death of the old creation, and the beginning of the new creation. This is what it means to be born again.
Water baptism comes first before Spirit baptism.
It's important to be water baptized.

Even Jesus got baptized in water!!!
Or did He argue "I'm the Son of God, I already have the Spirit, I'm already perfect, I don't need to be baptized in water, sorry John".
Any believers should just get it done , then it's over and done with. One of life's important milestones, like graduation, marriage etc.
Even Jesus, who was against the many traditions and rituals at the time, was water baptised.
John was hesitant to baptize Jesus, but Jesus said:
Matthew 3:15 "15 Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.”"

So if any Christians think "why do I have to be baptized because I'm already saved, I already have the Spirit", the answer is
"it is the proper thing to do, to fulfill all righteousness"

"fulfill all righteousness" means to fulfill the requirement of God.
Jesus was baptized in water because God ordained it - not because He was perfect, or because He already had the Spirit, or because He was the Son of God.
If we have not been baptized in water we have not fulfilled God's requirement.

 

[Last Things]

For some 'water baptism' refers to what John the baptists did with water. Baptism in the Holy Spirit is about the baptism that Christ offered in which the Holy Spirit works through the water.

 

[B-A-C]

I think we got a little off topic here with water baptism. Back to being baptized in the Spirit.
If we have received "power from on high". What power is this? What are we doing with it?
How is that power manifested in you? How are you using it to further the kingdom of God?

 

[Christ4Ever]

This was something I read right before I saw this thread. I post this for your consideration on the subject.
Thought not actually speaking of baptism, the reference of being filled on top of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which all believers receive initially, I see is consistent with the original thought of the thread.
YBIC
C4E

Spirit Fullness: A Way of Life, Not Merely Events

Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire…And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit…Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them…the place…was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit…And do not be drunk with wine…but be filled with the Spirit. Acts 2:3-4; 4:8, 31; Ephesians 5:18

When we were born again through faith in Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit came to dwell in our lives from that point thereafter (1 Corinthians 3:16). After the new birth, our lives may be repeatedly filled to overflowing by the empowering presence of the Spirit. The testimony of the early disciples illustrates this.

On the day of Pentecost, the 120 followers of Jesus were filled with the Spirit. "Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire…And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit." Subsequently, the Apostle Peter, who was originally filled on Pentecost, was again filled as he stood before the religious hierarchy of Israel. "Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them." After this encounter, Peter joined the other disciples for a prayer meeting. "And when they had prayed, the place where they were assembled together was shaken; and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit." In this event, those who had been filled with the Spirit at Pentecost were filled a second time. Peter, who had been so filled twice before, was filled a third time. Therefore, it is evident that the filling of the Spirit is not a once for all time matter.

Furthermore, being filled with the Spirit is not automatic or universal for Christians, as is the indwelling of the Spirit. This fact can be clearly seen in the instruction given in Ephesians 5:18. "And do not be drunk with wine…but be filled with the Spirit." Since this is a command and not a description, it only becomes a personal reality to those who respond properly.

Additionally, the form of this command contains tremendous insight concerning the fullness of the Spirit and God's desire for us. The injunction to "be filled with the Spirit" is in the present tense, indicating an ongoing condition. It could properly (though awkwardly) be translated "be (always) being filled." This imperative is a call to a way of living, not merely periodic events. It is the will of God that we actually live, day by day, more and more, by the fullness of the Spirit's empowering work. We should humbly pray for the fullness of the Holy Spirit as we face each day, each challenge, each opportunity of life.

Prayer:
Lord God of all power and might, I rejoice that Your Holy Spirit dwells within my heart. I thank You for those times when Your Spirit has worked powerfully upon my life. Help me to see that the fullness of Your Spirit is not merely an event-to-event experience, but a lifestyle to be developed. Lord, with great expectation I humbly seek You now for a fresh, ongoing work of the Holy Spirit in me. In the name of Jesus, I pray, Amen.

Bob hoekstra

 

[RJ]

I think we got a little off topic here with water baptism. Back to being baptized in the Spirit.
If we have received "power from on high". What power is this? What are we doing with it?
How is that power manifested in you? How are you using it to further the kingdom of God?

• Of course it is the indwelling of Jesus Christ's resurrected spirit. The whole reason for the resurrection.
• We do what we allow ourselves to do with it. We are not robots with him pulling the strings. It is the fruits of the spirit manifested in our spiritual works when we allow him to work through us. We are the branches and he is the vine; it is his works through us.
• If your worried about water, falling away and begging for forgiveness everyday, then maybe your not experiencing all you could be!

 

[RJ]

For some 'water baptism' refers to what John the baptists did with water. Baptism in the Holy Spirit is about the baptism that Christ offered in which the Holy Spirit works through the water.

I think that would be the Holy Spirit working through us not through water. I hope your not saying the Holy spirit comes into us only through the waters of water baptism?

 

[Last Things]

I think that would be the Holy Spirit working through us not through water. I hope your not saying the Holy spirit comes into us only through the waters of water baptism?

The Holy Spirit can obviously move anyone. The question is when does one received the Spirit? For mainstream traditional Christianity, the person receives the Holy Spirit through the words and waters of baptism. The fullness of the Spirit is later received in the laying on of hands (confirmation).

 

[RJ]

The Holy Spirit can obviously move anyone. The question is when does one received the Spirit? For mainstream traditional Christianity, the person receives the Holy Spirit through the words and waters of baptism. The fullness of the Spirit is later received in the laying on of hands (confirmation).

That's all man generated, waters... laying of hands.
Your explanation of laying hands later is an excuse so you can satisfy the scripture because it clearly says they would be baptised later by the Holy Spirit. Again laying of hands is a man thing and works before salvation. God said no works required before salvation: Ephesians 2:8. "It is not of your own doing"..In the confines of the New Covenant, works never has been required and never will.
Jesus Christ baptises by the Holy Spirit and he doesn't need our help, he is more than sufficient with out us doing any thing.
Acts 1:5
Mark 1:8
Luke 3:16

• Look at TJ's explanation in all three of the above verses, the common thread being sanctified by the holy spirit. That is an internal and eternal experience when the holy spirit indwells the believer, it says nothing about the water.
• The water does nothing but maybe barely washing off the dirt. I am sure Peter was water baptise but he still got it right: 1 Peter 3:21...it wasn't the water but an appeal to God for a good conscience and, that my brother, that is the receiving of Jesus Christ spirit in you. That can happen anywhere, any-time, with or without water!
• I was dry as a bone when I received the Holy Spirit and I will never forget it or look back.