Baptism In The Holy Spirit

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:smile:

One thing I believe is that we should seek the Giver and not the gift. Gifts of the Holy Spirit received as quoted in 1 Corinthians 14 are of no use without the love quoted in the previous chapter and we need to show the fruit of the Spirit shown in Galatians 5 v22.

We all have a increased measure of the Holy Spirit when we receive salvation as we invite God to live in us and we are new creations in Christ.

Just as faith without actions is dead so people who don't evidence gifts should be respected as God can speak to all alike and we in the church are all parts of the body of Christ and we are all God's favourites as He died for us all.

God bless
 
Obviously I am not satisfied with it :smile: I am trying to form an opinion on the issue genuinely. I have been taught one thing, but am interested to understand both arguments so I might form an opinion myself. I tend to lean the other way, and have for a while, so why would I not have questions that need answers? I have made it clear on another post that I don't agree with your definition of prophecy that I am sure of, but the issue of speaking in tongues remains an issue with me.

You did explain where you get the dichotomy, but I would still ask that you then explain those verses from your view because they still seem to indicate to me that the "believers" are not in the body until they recieve the laying on of hands etc. So again, I'm not just trying to be argumentative, I want to understand more your view. If you don't want to answer thats fine, but try and understand that when I say "I really am interested in hearing more arguments for the view that most of the pentecostal and chars have." I am not lying or doing it for arguments sake. It is a genuine interest and I do appreciate your answers.

I believe that the nub of this issue is a confusion of definition. Jiggyfly cited, in my opinion, A Scripture that holds the answer, Acts 19:1-6.

I would draw your attention to vv 4-6: "Paul said, 'John's baptism was a baptism of repentance'. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied."

I think that Paul's question, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"( verse 2 of Acts 19) gives us the key. While the Holy Spirit is certainly involved in our coming to Christ and being baptised into his church, there is more.After their baptism into the Body of Christ, Paul laid hands on them and they were "clothed with POWER from on high." (Lk 24:49).

Our baptism into the Body of Christ and the Baptism in the Holy Spirit are separate entities. The second builds on the first.

SLE
 
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I believe that the nub of this issue is a confusion of definition. Jiggyfly cited, in my opinion, A Scripture that holds the answer, Acts 19:1-6.

I would draw your attention to vv 4-6: "Paul said, 'John's baptism was a baptism of repentance'. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied."

I think that Paul's question, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"( verse 2 of Acts 19) gives us the key. While the Holy Spirit is certainly involved in our coming to Christ and being baptised into his church, there is more.After their baptism into the Body of Christ, Paul laid hands on them and they were "clothed with POWER from on high." (Lk 24:49).

Our baptism into the Body of Christ and the Baptism in the Holy Spirit are separate entities. The second builds on the first.

SLE
To clarify then are you saying that our water baptism is when salvation begins? It seems clear that whatever brings us into the body of Christ is a baptism of sorts.

I get the idea that you are saying that spirit baptism comes after, but I don't think that the bible teaches water baptism is the point at which a person is saved so I am a bit confused as to what you are saying. I know some denominations believe that is the point of salvation.

Are you saying maybe that our baptism into the body of Christ happens at the time of belief and that water baptism is just the symbolic ritual that we do after, but the believing is the baptism?

Either way I still can't understand this verse from your view point that faith in Christ doesn't provide the spirit baptism :X

1Co 6:16 have ye not known that he who is joined to the harlot is one body? `for they shall be--saith He--the two for one flesh.'
1Co 6:17 And he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit;



 
Re: The Gifts of the Holy Spirit

To clarify then are you saying that our water baptism is when salvation begins? It seems clear that whatever brings us into the body of Christ is a baptism of sorts.

I get the idea that you are saying that spirit baptism comes after, but I don't think that the bible teaches water baptism is the point at which a person is saved so I am a bit confused as to what you are saying. I know some denominations believe that is the point of salvation.

Are you saying maybe that our baptism into the body of Christ happens at the time of belief and that water baptism is just the symbolic ritual that we do after, but the believing is the baptism?

Either way I still can't understand this verse from your view point that faith in Christ doesn't provide the spirit baptism :X

1Co 6:16 have ye not known that he who is joined to the harlot is one body? `for they shall be--saith He--the two for one flesh.'
1Co 6:17 And he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit;



I never said, nor did I intend to imply, that water baptism is the point at which our salvation begins. Water baptism is an outward sign of our inward conversion. It is not the conversion itself.

The Baptism in the Holy Spirit builds on the foundation of our salvation. Yes, we are baptised into the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit through water baptism. But, the gifts of the Spirit are distributed as the Spirit wills after we receive Christ IF WE SEEK THEM.Note that near the end of 1 Cor 12, Paul tells the Corinthian Christians to "...eagerly seek the greater gifts."(1 Cor 12:31) , showing that the Gifts of the Spirit are imparted by the Spirit separately from water baptism. He was speaking to people who were already saved and baptized with water.



SLE
 
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I never said, nor did I intend to imply, that water baptism is the point at which our salvation begins. Water baptism is an outward sign of our inward conversion. It is not the conversion itself.

The Baptism in the Holy Spirit builds on the foundation of our salvation. Yes, we are baptised into the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit through water baptism. But, the gifts of the Spirit are distributed as the Spirit wills after we receive Christ IF WE SEEK THEM.Note that near the end of 1 Cor 12, Paul tells the Corinthian Christians to "...eagerly seek the greater gifts."(1 Cor 12:31) , showing that the Gifts of the Spirit are imparted by the Spirit separately from water baptism. He was speaking to people who were already saved and baptized with water.



SLE
Sorry SLE, I didn't intend to infer something you didn't imply.

Here is what I meant:


1. It seems that when we enter into the body of Christ it is a baptism of sorts:

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

So I can not understand how someone who separates the two events of 1. Accepting Jesus as Savior, and 2. Being baptised by the Holy Spirit, unless they say water baptism is the point of salvation.

2. It seems clear from scripture that what brings us into the body of Christ is a baptism. If it is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, and that is a seperate even from accepting Jesus, like many claim, then how can you say believers are saved when they have not recieved this baptism, when it is clearly a baptism that brings us into the body?

You could say then that water baptism is what brings us into the body, and thats what I thought you were saying. If that is not what you are saying then how from your view can we recieve Jesus as savior and not immediatly recieve a Holy Spirit baptism?

What I am saying is, it is a baptism that brings us into the body of Christ, then there are two mentioned in scripture. (Actually I can not find the phrase of "Holy Spirit Baptism" anywhere in scripture, but it is a doctrine or concept that can be taken from Acts and 1 Cor 14 etc.). So it would seem that one of these baptisms brings us into the body of Christ (see above verses). If then it is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and we do not recieve this when we accept Jesus, then the "believers" who have not recieved this baptism are not in the body of Christ and are not saved.

Let me know if I am somehow mistranslating the above verses. Thanks for taking the time to answer.
 
I don't know how else to respond to you, jculver. Jiggyfly and myself have gone to great lengths to explain the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and you seem to be unable or unwilling to truly examine our points.

In my opinion, this thread is degenerating to the point where it will be nothing more than a debate (which does not bring glory to God and would be a violation of forum rules).

For that reason, I am lock the thread.

SLE
 
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