Arguing for the sake of conversation?

[B-A-C]

I hesitated to put this in Bible Study, yet this is the forum where I think it is needed the most.

The Bible says a great many things. Some are easy to comprehend. Some, not so much.
It seems we have many who claim to be experts here on TJ. I'm sure my name could be on that list.
Since we don't all agree, it appears that someone has to be wrong, and someone has to be right.
We all think we are right.

I notice that Jesus didn't spend a lot of time arguing with people. Sure he turned over the money changers tables,
sure he called the pharisee's hypocrites, vipers and even "son's of hell". The Bible says we are to reprove, rebuke and correct others.
But it also says that those who are teaching scripture will be held to a higher standard of judgement than other people.
It also says we will be held accountable for the blood of those we had the chance to witness to, but never did.

I guess the point here is, we can give our side of the debate, (Jesus did) but after that, don't keep beating a dead horse.
People will agree with you, or they will disagree with you. I see very few minds being changed by arguing. Even if they disagree with you,
you did your part. You presented your argument, you gave your scriptures and your interpretation of them.

Jesus knew many people weren't going to be saved, but he never begged them. He told them the truth and moved on. He told
his disciples if people don't accept you, just shake the dust off your feet and move on. Don't spend a lot of time arguing with them.

A.W. Tozer said "A man's destination is not determined by his intentions, but by his direction". I wonder what direction some of us
are going. It's hard to see loved ones going in the wrong direction. What kind of example are we setting for them? Are we showing
them the fruits of the Spirit? If we aren't, why would they want to follow Jesus? If I speak with all knowledge, yet do not have love, I am
just a noisy gong to them. I think there are a lot of noisy gongs on TJ sometimes.

Gal 5:25; says it is possible to live in the Spirit, and yet not be led by the Spirit. My prayer today is that we would truly yield ourselves to the Spirit today.

If you want to debate "once saved always saved", or "grace vs law", or "when the rapture will happen", that's great. Iron sharpens iron.
But if we are having the same conversations over and over again, and posting the same verses over and over again, just to prove we are right,
maybe it's time to step back, pray for our brother (or sister as the case may be) and let God (the Holy Spirit) take care of it.

There is sometime called Gamaliel's creed, Gamaliel was a pharisee who basically said (paraphrase here) if their teaching is from God, we won't be able to stop them, if it isn't from God it will die out shortly. He was right about not being able to stop God's plan. He was wrong about false teaching dying out.
Buddhism, Hinduism, certain "Christian" cults have been around hundreds of years. Satan doesn't give up just because we don't fight back.

Exodus 14:14; says the Lord will fight for us if we will be silent for a while.
Sometimes, I think some of us try to hard. Peace, love and grace be with you this morning. - Amen.

 

[Fenn]

Good topic.
A couple of points. I think if it stays in the tone of discussion, then it can be more informational. You may not change someones mind, as that is God's job, but you may get them to look at their interpretation with more scrutiny.
Some topics become arguments. Some go on and on. I think some take a while to get to the meat, because the topics are so sensitive that a lot of clarifications have to be made and get rid of assumptions. Also, we have many cultures and languages which can cause confusion for a bit.
I agree with your points, but I wanted to add that there are situations where it is beneficial to discuss these things. Especially, if it helps you understand your current belief and be able to clearly state what and why you believe.

 

[Hekuran]

Thanks for posting this @B-A-C, it's made me think quite a bit over the past couple of days. Iron has the potential to blunt iron as well as sharpen. Using our energy on side-issue debates does little to build the kingdom. Some of the longest threads here fill me with nothing more than weariness.

And yet there are so many things that we could be talking about:

• Where do we see the Lordship of Jesus Christ at work in the world around us?
• What is the proper role of the missionary?
• Why does so much of the church seem to prefer Paul's teaching to Jesus' teaching?
• How are we living out our faith in words and deeds in the world -- and what are we learning?
• What wisdom from the Bible can we apply to the conflict we see around the world?
• What is salvation? Most churches assume it is entry to heaven, but the Bible never teaches this

I would love to see more ambitious discussion of the really big issues at the heart of our faith and our walk with Jesus.

Honestly, a complete and perfect answer to questions about once saved always saved or predestination would change my life and faith very little. A complete and perfect understanding of Jesus' atonement could have a profound difference to every area of my life. If I learn something by losing a few arguments then that's a fine thing.

We have found the truth in Jesus Christ, yet who of us can say that we fully understand the truth? In this we are fellow seekers and explorers. I'd like to be a little more open about what I have discovered so far in my walk with Jesus, and to learn from others on the same journey.

Edit: I've re-read my post and it sounds like I am being very critical. It is not written in that spirit: there are lots of treasures on this site. I think there is a huge opportunity to encourage deeper exploration of the heart of the gospel.

 

[james1523]

Why does so much of the church seem to prefer Paul's teaching to Jesus' teaching?

I thought it was the opposite, ignore Paul's teaching (esp. head coverings, women in leadership), ignore the Spirit (living and walking in the Spirit), ignore salvation by faith not works (Galatians), ignore Christian unity and love and gifts of the Spirit (Corinthians). The majority of the churches are still teaching John 3:16 and have not made it further than that into the real "meat" of God's Word. Paul's writings are the meat and the gospels are the milk.

 

[amadeus2]

it's made me think quite a bit over the past couple of days. Iron has the potential to blunt iron as well as sharpen. Using our energy on side-issue debates does little to build the kingdom. Some of the longest threads here fill me with nothing more than weariness.

Many people I am certain are like me in not even reading very long posts unless for some reason something catches their attention. It could be a topic near and dear to my heart or it could that the writer has previously impressed me very favorable (or unfavorably) or the Holy Spirit may have touched me to go ahead and read it even though there seems (to my carnal mind) no good reason to do so.

And yet there are so many things that we could be talking about:

• Where do we see the Lordship of Jesus Christ at work in the world around us?
• What is the proper role of the missionary?
• Why does so much of the church seem to prefer Paul's teaching to Jesus' teaching?
• How are we living out our faith in words and deeds in the world -- and what are we learning?
• What wisdom from the Bible can we apply to the conflict we see around the world?
• What is salvation? Most churches assume it is entry to heaven, but the Bible never teaches this

Your topics as listed express a little a bit about yourself. I guess you already understood that.

I would love to see more ambitious discussion of the really big issues at the heart of our faith and our walk with Jesus.

Not everything that you might consider a "big issue(s) at the heart of our faith and our walk with Jesus" would necessarily be a big issue (or even a little issue) with me or the other guy for many reasons. I hope that you understand that.

Honestly, a complete and perfect answer to questions about once saved always saved or predestination would change my life and faith very little. A complete and perfect understanding of Jesus' atonement could have a profound difference to every area of my life. If I learn something by losing a few arguments then that's a fine thing.

If you have complete and/or perfect answers to those questions, I could understand why they would have little affect on you. As to losing a few arguments, how many do think that you have lost? Can you name one that you would admit to on this forum? This is not intended as derogatory remark but a serious, if rhetorical, question for you to consider.

We have found the truth in Jesus Christ, yet who of us can say that we fully understand the truth? In this we are fellow seekers and explorers. I'd like to be a little more open about what I have discovered so far in my walk with Jesus, and to learn from others on the same journey.

If... we are really seekers and explorers, we should certainly be hopeful of sharing as well as receiving the things received from God. Unfortunately, this is one area where probably too many people prefer giving over receiving.

 

[amadeus2]

I thought it was the opposite, ignore Paul's teaching (esp. head coverings, women in leadership), ignore the Spirit (living and walking in the Spirit), ignore salvation by faith not works (Galatians), ignore Christian unity and love and gifts of the Spirit (Corinthians). The majority of the churches are still teaching John 3:16 and have not made it further than that into the real "meat" of God's Word.

While what you say be valid for the majority of "churches" and people, what does understanding it and expressing it here accomplish for you or for anyone who reads it insofar as edifying their walk in the Lord?

Paul's writings are the meat and the gospels are the milk.

If this is so, which I do not concede, what would you propose to change or improve people understanding?

 

[Hekuran]

@Amadeus. Thanks. Yes I know that the big, big issues for me may not be too significant for anyone. As for losing arguments, I think I have lost an argument on each of the issues that I have listed in the past couple of years. I'll post details if anyone is interested, but I see no reason why anybody should be...

I don't have anything like a complete answer to any of the questions I listed. Some of them I believe go to the heart of what it is to follow Jesus, others feel to me more like intellectual diversions. It seems that many of us are content with rather superficial answers to questions such as 'why did God send Jesus to us?' and argue the possible date of the rapture to the billionth degree.

 

[amadeus2]

@Amadeus. Thanks. Yes I know that the big, big issues for me may not be too significant for anyone. As for losing arguments, I think I have lost an argument on each of the issues that I have listed in the past couple of years. I'll post details if anyone is interested, but I see no reason why anybody should be...

Well, don't post any details for me. I could not easily list my own details on forums, although on this forum I cannot recall having many running discussions on which I might have been on the losing or the winning side. Hopefully, we both will always find ourselves on Jesus' side. I certainly have changed my beliefs or had my beliefs changed as a result of what others on forums have posted... to me or to others.

I don't have anything like a complete answer to any of the questions I listed.

Nor do I. What is complete? A complete answer for one person for one situation will not necessarily another person or another situation. The superficial rules given to Moses were 'black and white' but even then there was more to it. Now, the Holy Ghost is more directly involved with you and me... or should be. One problem at the time, one step at the time. Hypothetic situations at time may be useful, but sometimes they will get us into trouble with God.

Some of them I believe go to the heart of what it is to follow Jesus, others feel to me more like intellectual diversions.

I understand about intellectual diversions. They may be necessary things to people sometimes, but I usually try to avoid them in the things of God. What things are not of God?

It seems that many of us are content with rather superficial answers to questions such as 'why did God send Jesus to us?'

Unfortunately, many people may too often miss the main point of interacting with God and/or with other believers. What is the main point, if not to please God? Why should we not want to please God? Why should we not work to please God?

and argue the possible date of the rapture to the billionth degree.

I've been done that more than I care to admit. Perhaps just getting too deep into it was one of my lost arguments.

 

[faithfulservant]

I think a good thing about threads like those is that people really do want to know what the Bible says about them. And if they are following the Lord and truly seeking truth, the truth will light up for them as they read through the thread.That being said, there isn't always a loving intent to some of the debates on one side or another. But doesn't that speak to why the other side should stand and declare the truth?

In the end, it is not profitable to argue and quarrel. We should be able to do this as if we were across the table from one another and able to shake hands and hug afterward.

 

[RJ]

Honestly, a complete and perfect answer to questions about once saved always saved or predestination would change my life and faith very little. A complete and perfect understanding of Jesus' atonement could have a profound difference to every area of my life. If I learn something by losing a few arguments then that's a fine thing.
Great idea, would you mind starting a new discussion on the aspects of Jesus Atonement....just an example: what does his atonement have to do with him sitting down at the right hand of the father. Or when he looked up from the cross and said" "It is Finished".

 

[will]

This topic is like a fresh breeze...!!
The contempt we show towards others who don't share our beliefs only serves to reflect our spiritual immaturity.

No one who has experienced God's grace in his or her own life would think to look down to fellow brothers and sisters.

When we disagree, we could still disagree with love, appealing to one another with sincerity and a mind that is eager to learn more about the Scriptures.