Are you really saved?

RJ · Nov 17, 2011

ozell said:
.

Peace in Jesus RJ

lets me start off by saying God never told you to read his word in context, so this is why I know most people who read his word that way don't understand his word

this is how we are told to read his bible

Isaiah 28

9Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. 13But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

what works?

how hard is it to not steal, kill, lie or covet?

where is the words New Covenant Grace written?

the same grace Noah is under we are under, WHY?

it is written

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

so when did grace change since Jesus is grace?

it is written that Abraham kept the law

Genesis 26:5
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws

we read that Enoch Pleased God

Hebrews 11:5
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

How?

Genesis 5:24
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

so why would God give us commandments we can't keep?
why would Jesus tell the man to keep somethig that he would do away with soon?

your logic don't make sense

I know

yet most of you don't know whjat law you are not under.

what law is the curse?

tell me which one of these commandments is a curse

Exodus 20

1And God spake all these words, saying,
2I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
12Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
13Thou shalt not kill.
14Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15Thou shalt not steal.
16Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. 17Thou shalt not covet

So Jesus gave us a curse to follow?
which one is a curse?

Ozell, are you Orthodox Jew or Christian?

You either do not get it or you just do not want to!

Jesus/God gave us a perfect and righteoues 10 commandments.

The problem with these commandments was not with them but the problem was with us. St.Paul called them a curse to us , why do you think he said that Ozell? He said it because we could not perform them perfectly 24/7/.

God says that if you break anyone of the laws, you have broken them all. Man was doomed to fail; the 10 commandments was not created to save man but to reveal his sin to him.

You continue to avoid and not directly answer my previous question about "not of yourselves" and "not of your works".
So, since you will not answer what those mean, hopefully you will answer this one question?

Ozell, do you do or do you perform the 10 commandments perfectly?

Peace Seeker · Nov 17, 2011

ozell said:
where is this written?

when Jesus was in heaven Paul said

Romans 13

7Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

8Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

9For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

10Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Jesus gave us a new covenant, did he not?, that replaced the old covenant of sacrificing and shedding the blood of animals. Jesus' shed blood at Calvary. The communion of Jesus' Last Supper commemorates this.
His words in Luke 22:20 : "this cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood".
If you reject this new covenant then you will have to sacrifice an animal for a covering of your sins.

my_little_pony · Nov 17, 2011

8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

we have an earthly father which is our birth father so what term is the Lord using father in? spiritual

He said "no man on Earth" Ozell. But for some reason, you insist on interpreting that as some esoteric spiritual lesson which allows us to call any man on Earth "father", or "sir" which is the shortened form of "Sire" which literally means "father".

I believe the "some reason" is because it is traditional for us to use these special titles for one another. In MOST cases it is a form of flattery and that is why people become so angry or offended if we don't use them.

Again, are we willing to obey Jesus even if it contradicts our traditions and "laws of the land"? What is real salvation really worth if we can't follow a direct command?

I understand God's grace is there for us for when we fall short. As hard as we can ever try in obeying Jesus, we will always fall short. And yet, the admonishments to obey are still there, all throughout the NT.

But, in your reasoning, I don't see someone who is taking a long hard look at what it would mean to take Jesus at his word. I see someone who has a lot of reasons for why Jesus didn't really mean what he said...

In the bigger picture this is just an example. The bottom line is that, no matter how much we know, how many verses we can quote, or how persuasive our arguments are, if we don't get to the nitty gritty of applying Jesus' teachings, then what reason does he have to save us?

gdemoss · Nov 17, 2011

Hi RJ I hope all is well with you brother. I read your comments and was stirred to reply.

Jesus/God gave us a perfect and righteoues 10 commandments.

The problem with these commandments was not with them but the problem was with us. St.Paul called them a curse to us , why do you think he said that Ozell? He said it because we could not perform them perfectly 24/7/.

I agree God gave a perfect and righteous 10 commandments as the whole Mosaic Law was righteous. I also agree that the problem was people and not the law. But was it because God gave them something they couldn't follow? If that were true would God be righteous if he punished them for failing to keep something they could not? Consider this carefully.

32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. 33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. 34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. 35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. 36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

A man broke the Sabbath. Was arrested. Sentenced to death. Executed. For something that you believe were commandments that couldn't be kept. That were designed by God to be that way.

With all do respect, if you are saying that they were saved by grace in the Old Covenant then God would not have abolished it for the New.

This is an understandable way to see the need for a new covenant. But I think there may be some things you haven't considered. Grace is unmerited favor from God to humans. No one deserves to receive the grace of God. His grace is continually exhibited in the Old Testament. The wages of sin is death but instead of executing Adam and Eve he gave them coverings for their sin. Cain was only exiled. Noah was given time to build an ark. Davids sin was put away when the law demanded death. Israel was brought out of captivity.

I noticed that you have the you must be born again thing as an avatar. One day when I was reading John 3, I realized that Jesus expected Nicodemus to know that you must be born again.

John 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

I used to think that being 'born again' was a New Testament only thing. As I have read it repeatedly I began to understand that being 'born again' wasn't what I thought it was. I had previously thought it was receiving the Holy Spirit. I didn't realize that being born of the spirit referred to a spiritual birth that comes by hearing the word of God and believing it. Just as Jesus said 'my words are spirit', so are all of Gods words.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Yes the Bible mentions faith in the Old Testament. All to a degree these men all had some faith: Noah had it, Moses had it and Abraham had it to name a few and yes, God did credit them with righteousness because of it. Make no mistake though, they were all under a legalistic and sacrifical system which all participated in as required under the LAW.

There is nothing in the bible to show Abel, Adam, Eve, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob or Joseph were under a legalistic and sacrificial system. God says that Abraham kept all of his laws but the only source we have for understanding what those laws were is found in Genesis 1-26.

Paul was pointing out that Abraham was saved by faith and not works. Just because God said his works were perfect doesn't nullify the faith that saved him.

They did not have a salvation based on faith as we have under the New Covenant, where a sacrificial system and the Law was done away with.
Again, if they could have been saved by their faith and not their works, then there would have been no need for a better sacrifice and no need for Jesus Christ.

I mean well and fear the way things come across in type on the internet. Please bear with me. Your position is that they had a works salvation but yet you contend that no one was capable of doing the works necessary for salvation. I offer you another thought.

The need for a better sacrifice had nothing to do with their works and how miserably they kept the law. We are told that it is "not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins (Heb 10:4)" They could not be saved by sacrificing an animal. They too needed the blood of Jesus Christ which is imputed based upon faith in what God has said or His Word. Jesus' sacrifice redeemed them that were under the first covenant (Heb 9:15) so that they could receive the promise.

Although they were held captive under a legalistic system with sacrifices due to transgressions, they could only be saved by faith in the Word of God (9:31-32). They had instead thought they could be righteous by keeping the law. But there is no law that can give righteousness (Gal 2:21).

directly answer my previous question about "not of yourselves" and "not of your works".

As a Baptist, I stood my ground with everyone with these questions. I would ask How do you explain Eph 2:8-9? It blatantly shows that works have no part in salvation. But the more I studied on my own, the more I saw things that seem to contradict this verse. The pastor at church would always have some explanation for the supposed contradiction until one day he told me that I would get used to overlooking them. The rules that I use to govern my interpretation of the bible are that only scripture can interpret scripture, everything means what it says, nothing can be added to or subtracted from it.

Using this guide I revisited Eph 2:8-9.

Eph 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

It is absolutely 100% clear that our works cannot save us. If there were something we could do then we would have license to boast which is sin anyway. Salvation is clearly a gift to those who believe. What it doesn't say is that works have no place in salvation. The scripture says that he came into his own and his own received him not. But as many as received him gave he power to become the sons of God (Jn 1:11-12). We must understand what he came to them as in order to understand what receiving him means. Their King and Savior. So only those who receive him as such will be saved. Does receiving someone as your King require action? For a Savior you put your faith in the blood and not your works. Has the King commanded anything? Has there been a path laid out?

We need to have a closer look at faith. James says faith without works is dead to which you reply that the works come from a love of Christ through salvation. Is that what James is saying? No. He is simply saying you cannot separate the two. Why? Because faith is the substance of things unseen, the evidence of things hoped for (Heb 11:1) It is tangible - substance, It is visible - evidence. The day I came to Christ my life changed. Because I believed, I quit swearing immediately. Everything took a backseat to Christ and bible reading. The point is that we act in accordance with our beliefs. Before I believed in God there was a time that I got into a get rich quick scheme. I really had faith that I could do it. All of my works showed it. An interesting study to do in the bible is to look at the difference between 'having faith' and being 'in the faith'. They are two separate things.

When we consider our works and their place in salvation we only need to ask one thing. Does Jesus see me as one of his disciples, followers, believers, etc? If not that person will hear 'depart from me you worker of iniquity' (Mt 7:23)

Gary

Edited to correct spelling here to hear.

agua · Nov 17, 2011

RJ said:
With all do respect, if you are saying that they were saved by grace in the Old Covenant then God would not have abolished it for the New.

It's by God's grace that anyone is saved. OT or New.

Rom_3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

God never abolished His moral laws He simply removed the need for the sacrifice of "bulls and goats" and festivals etc. that were foreshadowing the advent of Christ.

Yes the Bible mentions faith in the Old Testament. All to a degree these men all had some faith:....

The OT Saints had much more than "some " faith. Take Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego for eg.

Dan 3:16-17 KJV Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter. (17) If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.
.....
Dan 3:25 KJV He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

These men had great faith and this faith made them righteous in God's eye. Notice Who was in the furnace with them. : )

... Noah had it, Moses had it and Abraham had it to name a few and yes, God did credit them with righteousness because of it. Make no mistake though, they were all under a legalistic and sacrifical system which all participated in as required under the LAW.

They did not have a salvation based on faith as we have under the New Covenant, where a sacrificial system and the Law was done away with.
Again, if they could have been saved by their faith and not their works, then there would have been no need for a better sacrifice and no need for Jesus Christ.

The OT Saints were never saved by their works because, as we know, no one has ever been made righteous by the law.

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Man has only ever been saved by the grace of God through their faith. God never changed His plan of redemption by the blood of Christ He simply brought to fruition that which was planned from the beginning, foreshadowed in the OT by festivals and sacrifices etc, and fulfilled in entirety by Jesus Himself.

Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Stickz · Nov 18, 2011

RJ,

Jari also believes that people have always been saved by Grace, even in the OT; since you and he believe so much alike, and seem to be on the same level about everything else, perhaps, he could explain it better to you than the rest of us. I would be interested in what the two of you come up with about it.

RJ · Nov 18, 2011

agua said:
It's by God's grace that anyone is saved. OT or New.

Rom_3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

God never abolished His moral laws He simply removed the need for the sacrifice of "bulls and goats" and festivals etc. that were foreshadowing the advent of Christ.

The OT Saints had much more than "some " faith. Take Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego for eg.

Dan 3:16-17 KJV Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter. (17) If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.
.....
Dan 3:25 KJV He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

These men had great faith and this faith made them righteous in God's eye. Notice Who was in the furnace with them. : )
The OT Saints were never saved by their works because, as we know, no one has ever been made righteous by the law.

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Man has only ever been saved by the grace of God through their faith. God never changed His plan of redemption by the blood of Christ He simply brought to fruition that which was planned from the beginning, foreshadowed in the OT by festivals and sacrifices etc, and fulfilled in entirety by Jesus Himself.

Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

I know where you are coming from and I think we agree much more than you think. I don't think I have done a good job of explaining.

God, people, grace, faith and righteousness have all been discussed but, we have left out the most important words, holy and prefect. You want to say that grace, faith and righteousness of the OT are really no different than today, agreed!
Now, holiness and perfection is a completely different matter.

Hebrews 9:8-9
8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing. 9 This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper.

Hebrews 10

Christ’s Sacrifice Once for All

1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4 because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Agreed, righteousness can never come by the law or anyother works of our own.

Your example of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were great examples of faith, this type faith was needed to trust God to protect them and save them from the fire. One of God's miracles.

Having a measure of faith, yes. God shedding his grace on thee, forever but, perfection, holiness and salvation, never under the OT and Old Covenant....only under the New Covenant.

Hebrews 10:11-14
11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

As a Christian, and because of God's continued grace, he gives a gift, not of our own doing but, a free gift, in the death burial and resurrection of his son.

Unlike the OT and becuase he is in us, God not only calls us righteous, he calls us holy and perfect, something that has no similarities bewteen the OT and the NT.

agua · Nov 18, 2011

RJ said:
I know where you are coming from and I think we agree much more than you think. I don't think I have done a good job of explaining.

It won't be long and we will agree fully ! : ) Yes we are not far apart at all and I'm not very good with explanations so hopefully when the right words come I can add some more.

*handshake*

RJ · Nov 18, 2011

agua said:
It won't be long and we will agree fully ! : ) Yes we are not far apart at all and I'm not very good with explanations so hopefully when the right words come I can add some more.

*handshake*

I don't think that there is a need for it but, I'll shake your hand anytime and one thing we can always agree on......Jesus is Lord!

agua · Nov 18, 2011

RJ said:
I don't think that there is a need for it but, I'll shake your hand anytime and one thing we can always agree on......Jesus is Lord!

Amen . We definitely agree on that.

Jesus our Lord and our God. : )

ozell · Nov 19, 2011

=RJ;188821]Ozell, are you Orthodox Jew or Christian?

Christians=follower of Jesus

You either do not get it or you just do not want to!

get what, your doctrine?

Jesus/God gave us a perfect and righteoues 10 commandments.

that he did.

The problem with these commandments was not with them but the problem was with us. St.Paul called them a curse to us , why do you think he said that Ozell? He said it because we could not perform them perfectly 24/7/.

so you believe that Jesus gave man commandments he could not keep?

Rj

which one of these commandments you can't keep 24 hours a day for the rest of your life?

Exodus 20

1And God spake all these words, saying,
2I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or

7Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

12Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

13Thou shalt not kill.

14Thou shalt not commit adultery.

15Thou shalt not steal.

16Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. 
17Thou shalt not covet

God says that if you break anyone of the laws, you have broken them all. Man was doomed to fail; the 10 commandments was not created to save man but to reveal his sin to him.

was man doomed to fail because of the commandments or disobedience?

if the law point out sin to us shall we continue to sin or not keep the law?

Jesus said after his death and resurrection, after he died for our past sins, he said

1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

You continue to avoid and not directlyanswer my previous question about "not of yourselves" and "not of your works".
So, since you will not answer what those mean, hopefully you will answer this one question?

I answered it just went over your head

here it is again in a simpler form.

pay attention this time

Jesus said the young rich man to keep the commandments for eternal life

is eternal life salvation? yes

Matthew 19:

16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

and

Deuteronomy 6
24And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.
25And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us

it is God's works that he has for us to do that we have to do.

Ozell, do you do or do you perform the 10 commandments perfectly?

Click to expand...

Rj

where is it written that we are to keep God's law perfectly?

you can't read that no where in the bible

I keep God's commandments and I have a advocate if I break one and I repent and pray.

Now answer my questions I presented to you.

which one of the commandments you won't keep?

ozell · Nov 19, 2011

Peace Seeker said:
Jesus gave us a new covenant, did he not?, that replaced the old covenant of sacrificing and shedding the blood of animals. Jesus' shed blood at Calvary. The communion of Jesus' Last Supper commemorates this.
His words in Luke 22:20 : "this cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood".
If you reject this new covenant then you will have to sacrifice an animal for a covering of your sins.

I agree the New covenant replaces animal sacrifice and the shedding of blood.

did it replace the commandments?

ozell · Nov 19, 2011

=my_little_pony;188826]He said "no man on Earth" Ozell. But for some reason, you insist on interpreting that as some esoteric spiritual lesson which allows us to call any man on Earth "father", or "sir" which is the shortened form of "Sire" which literally means "father".

MLP

pay close attention to what Jeuss said here, it not me interpreting anything because I can read , it is you not reading the bible in its entirety and understanding what you are trying to propose.

who is Jesus referring to when he call and use the word father

<NOSCRIPT></NOSCRIPT>

Genesis 2:24
Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

where ever you are getting your doctrine from concerning this subject flee from it right away. it has to many holes in it.

God called our birth dad Father
a man shall leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife.

God called our birth dad father.

I believe the "some reason" is because it is traditional for us to use these special titles for one another. In MOST cases it is a form of flattery and that is why people become so angry or offended if we don't use them.

you believe!

Again, are we willing to obey Jesus even if it contradicts our traditions and "laws of the land"? What is real salvation really worth if we can't follow a direct command?

a lot of christians don't know not to call a there spiritual leader Father
rabbi or reverend.

I understand God's grace is there for us for when we fall short. As hard as we can ever try in obeying Jesus, we will always fall short. And yet, the admonishments to obey are still there, all throughout the NT.

this is why the Lord said

Mark 13:13
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+13:12-14&version=KJV

, in your reasoning, I don't see someone who is taking a long hard look at what it would mean to take Jesus at his word. I see someone who has a lot of reasons for why Jesus didn't really mean what he said...

your opinion

what you should see is a person who is taught well and who read God's word for what it says.

what you see is what is written on the pages of the bible
rabbi, father, master ands reverend.

we can't read sir, Mr, Mrs etc

In the bigger picture this is just an example. The bottom line is that, no matter how much we know, how many verses we can quote, or how persuasive our arguments are, if we don't get to the nitty gritty of applying Jesus' teachings, then what reason does he have to save us?

where is Jesus teaching in something he did not say like Mr, mrs, sir

where did he teach this?

ozell · Nov 19, 2011

Revelation 13:8
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

we read that the lamb was slain fromt he foundation of the world

if this be the case then the OT saints were under grace.

this is why we can read

Genesis 6:8
But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

was Noah under grace? we read that the Lord found grace in his

Is Noah written in the OT?

so grace was in the OT and the Lord had to find it in him

ozell · Nov 19, 2011

here in Revelation 21 we have New Jerusalem and The Father coming down from heaven to earth.

lets read who will not be in this New Jerusalem

Revealtion 21
25And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

26And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

who is a defiler according to the Word of God?
who is a abomination according to the Lord?
who is a liar according to the Lord?

a liar is breaking the commandments
a abomination is breaking the commandments of God
a defiler is breaking the commandments of God

these people will not be in New Jersualem.

RJ · Nov 19, 2011

ozell said:
here in Revelation 21 we have New Jerusalem and The Father coming down from heaven to earth.

lets read who will not be in this New Jerusalem

Revealtion 21
25And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

26And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

who is a defiler according to the Word of God?
who is a abomination according to the Lord?
who is a liar according to the Lord?

a liar is breaking the commandments
a abomination is breaking the commandments of God
a defiler is breaking the commandments of God

these people will not be in New Jersualem.

One quick question Ozell:

So with these commandments that you talk about above, you never break them and you follow them perfectly 24/7 ?

RJ · Nov 19, 2011

ozell said:
Christians=follower of Jesus

get what, your doctrine?

that he did.

so you believe that Jesus gave man commandments he could not keep?

Rj

which one of these commandments you can't keep 24 hours a day for the rest of your life?

Exodus 20

1And God spake all these words, saying,
2I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or

7Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

12Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

13Thou shalt not kill.

14Thou shalt not commit adultery.

15Thou shalt not steal.

16Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. 
17Thou shalt not covet

was man doomed to fail because of the commandments or disobedience?

if the law point out sin to us shall we continue to sin or not keep the law?

Jesus said after his death and resurrection, after he died for our past sins, he said

1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

I answered it just went over your head

here it is again in a simpler form.

pay attention this time

Jesus said the young rich man to keep the commandments for eternal life

is eternal life salvation? yes

Matthew 19:

16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

and

Deuteronomy 6
24And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.
25And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us

it is God's works that he has for us to do that we have to do.

Rj

where is it written that we are to keep God's law perfectly?

you can't read that no where in the bible

I keep God's commandments and I have a advocate if I break one and I repent and pray.

Now answer my questions I presented to you.

which one of the commandments you won't keep?

1. No, you never have answered my question directly!

These are you words:

"I answered it just went over your head

here it is again in a simpler form.

pay attention this time"
So, with no disrespect, you must not be Christian, because I know no other Christian here on TJ that is so condescending and rude to another!

2. So, you want to be the Teacher? In all honesty and again with respect, you do not understand what you quote?

This is your quote:

Jesus said the young rich man to keep the commandments for eternal life

is eternal life salvation? yes

Matthew 19:

16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments
The only thing I can say about the above my friend, is that it is respectfully you, who does not pay attention.

You have used this verse and thinking to support your case and you do it totally in error and refuse to acknowledge this simple truth here:

Yes, Jesus told the young man to follow the commandements, yes Jesus told the young man that he could enter eternal life only by following the commandments.

What you refuse to admit is that Jesus could tell the young man nothing else because they were both still under the Old Covenant and the law! When the young man ask Jesus what he needed to do to have eternal life, Jesus could no nothing else but answer him under the current covenant that they were both still under.

The New Covenant that was the replacement of the Old Covenant, did not come in until later with the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus!

The irony of this is that the very verse above that you use actually supports the stance on salvation that you appose!

RJ · Nov 19, 2011

ozell said:
Christians=follower of Jesus

get what, your doctrine?

that he did.

so you believe that Jesus gave man commandments he could not keep?

Rj

which one of these commandments you can't keep 24 hours a day for the rest of your life?

Exodus 20

1And God spake all these words, saying,
2I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or

7Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

12Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

13Thou shalt not kill.

14Thou shalt not commit adultery.

15Thou shalt not steal.

16Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. 
17Thou shalt not covet

was man doomed to fail because of the commandments or disobedience?

if the law point out sin to us shall we continue to sin or not keep the law?

Jesus said after his death and resurrection, after he died for our past sins, he said

1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

I answered it just went over your head

here it is again in a simpler form.

pay attention this time

Jesus said the young rich man to keep the commandments for eternal life

is eternal life salvation? yes

Matthew 19:

16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

and

Deuteronomy 6
24And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.
25And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us

it is God's works that he has for us to do that we have to do.

I keep God's commandments and I have a advocate if I break one and I repent and pray.

Now answer my questions I presented to you.

which one of the commandments you won't keep?

You asked:
Rj

where is it written that we are to keep God's law perfectly?

you can't read that no where in the bible

James 2:10
For the person who keeps all of the laws except one is as guilty as a person who has broken all of God's laws.

For me, the above says that the only way for you to not break God's laws is to keep all of them...is that not the same as keeping them perfectly?

Ozell, how do you then interpret this veres from James?

jiggyfly · Nov 19, 2011

Eccl12v13 said:
Did Jesus REALLY take away the sins of the world....OR.....did He redeem us from the curse of the law that said blood is required for the remission of sin?

Because if He took away ALL of the sins of the world, who is it that He is coming back to punish upon His return? Along with ruling the earth when He returns, is He not supposed to also punish those that transgressed HIs laws? How can He punish sinners if ALL of the sins of the world were taken away?

.

Nah John was probably just joking or he simply didn't know what he was talking about, right?

The scripture says "behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world".:shock:

Sorry if it doesn't fit in with your paradigm.

RJ · Nov 19, 2011

jiggyfly said:
Nah John was probably just joking or he simply didn't know what he was talking about, right?

The scripture says "behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world".:shock:

Sorry if it doesn't fit in with your paradigm.

Originally Posted by Eccl12v13
Did Jesus REALLY take away the sins of the world....OR.....did He redeem us from the curse of the law that said blood is required for the remission of sin?

Because if He took away ALL of the sins of the world, who is it that He is coming back to punish upon His return? Along with ruling the earth when He returns, is He not supposed to also punish those that transgressed HIs laws? How can He punish sinners if ALL of the sins of the world were taken away?

Eccl12v13,

You can't always be a such a literalist.
Of course you know that the Bible teaches a lot by using such things as symbols, symbolism and parables to name a few.
We can never take many things, as stated, literally but, to learn and understand the truer meaning of the truth that is being spoken.

Sin is and has always been in the world since the fall of Adam and Eve.
The Old Covenant sacrificail system only covered over the sins of the people who participated. This appeased God until the "Day of Atonement" the very next year and had to be repeated year after year.

Jesus did not remove sin from the world so that it doesn't exist any more. But, what he did do with his perfect and final sacrifice, he ended the Old Covenant sacrifical system. He essentially, for all, took the sins away from the sight of God.

All have forgivess available now (everyone, all unbelivers), for God says there are no more sacrifices. Because of finally solving the sin problem, this it clears the way, a path to God, and all that believe are rewarded with salvation.

Hebrews 10:10
And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
1 Peter 3:18
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,
Romans 6:10
The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God
Hebrews 5:9
and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
Hebrews 7:27
Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.

There are many more scriptures that state this truth!

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