Are you really saved?

RJ · Nov 16, 2011

ozell said:
No problem Brother

if we beleive in Jesus we will do what he says

Jesus said this

Matthew 19:15-17

15And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence.
16And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Brother Gary

the young rich man is already alive yet he was seeking another life , life eternal. and the Lord said to him to keep the commandments.

Keeping the commandments will get a person eternal life.

Jesus can't lie so this saying must be true, that's if we beleive in the words , every words of Jesus.

peace in Jesus

O.k. brother ozell, you finally opened up yourself to a serious flaw in your thinking of salvation by works.

Your qoute and use of Matthew 19 is completely out of context and relates in works only as a part of the Old Covenant law.

Jesus was indeed telling to keep the commandments to have eternal life but, what you fail to see is that he was doing this under the Old Covenant Law requirements, which required works.

New Covenant grace was not ushered in until the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Your quote and command by Jesus was done under the Old Covenant and not the New Covenant.

Before his death on the cross, Jesus was a strict follower of his Father's Old Covenant which required works and a sacrificial system to be saved. Jesus would have been the only person to follow the Law perfectly and his commandments to anyone would have been under the Law.

Most of us know that we are no longer under the curse of the Law and works but under the New Covenant of faith and grace.

Peace Seeker · Nov 16, 2011

RJ said:
Jesus was indeed telling to keep the commandments to have eternal life but, what you fail to see is that he was doing this under the Old Covenant Law requirements, which required works.

So true. Regarding passages such as Matthew 8:4, where Jesus heals a man and then tells him to "..... go, show yourself to the priest and offer the gift Moses commanded......”, I used to think Jesus said that just because He figured the healed man would want to go and do that anyway, or something like that.

But yes, it's so obvious that until Jesus' death and resurrection, everyone would still be under the old law and that's why Jesus made such statements. Thanks for pointing it out.

Stickz · Nov 16, 2011

Hebrews 13:5 says that God has said, He will never leave or forsake us. This cannot be found anywhere else in the New Testament, so when it says that "God has said" it it is referring to something that was said in the Old Testament. Notice that there are no added rule changes, no amendments to the rule, in the New Testament, so what was meant in the Old Testament is what was meant in the New Testament as well. And when we look at these examples from the Old Testament we see that this was conditional in the Old Testament so we must conclude that it is still conditional since we were not specifically told that things have changed.

Myself from another thread: Will God ever forsake you?

Deuteronomy 4:31 (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.

Deuteronomy 31:6 Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid of them: for the LORD thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee.

Deuteronomy 31:8 And the LORD, he it is that doth go before thee; he will be with thee, he will not fail thee, neither forsake thee: fear not, neither be dismayed.

He told them that He wouldn't.

Deuteronomy 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a ******* after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

Deuteronomy 31:17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?

Joshua 24:20 If ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good.

I Chronicles 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

I Chronicles 28:20 And David said to Solomon his son, Be strong and of good courage, and do it: fear not, nor be dismayed: for the LORD God, even my God, will be with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee, until thou hast finished all the work for the service of the house of the LORD.

II Chronicles 15:2 And he went out to meet Asa, and said unto him, Hear ye me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin; The LORD is with you, while ye be with him; and if ye seek him, he will be found of you; but if ye forsake him, he will forsake you.

Psalm 27:9 Hide not thy face far from me; put not thy servant away in anger: thou hast been my help; leave me not, neither forsake me, O God of my salvation.

Psalm 119:8 I will keep thy statutes: O forsake me not utterly.

JonahofAkron · Nov 16, 2011

Peace Seeker said:
So true. Regarding passages such as Matthew 8:4, where Jesus heals a man and then tells him to "..... go, show yourself to the priest and offer the gift Moses commanded......”, I used to think Jesus said that just because He figured the healed man would want to go and do that anyway, or something like that.

But yes, it's so obvious that until Jesus' death and resurrection, everyone would still be under the old law and that's why Jesus made such statements. Thanks for pointing it out.

Until His death and resurrection?

agua · Nov 16, 2011

RJ said:
Before his death on the cross, Jesus was a strict follower of his Father's Old Covenant which required works and a sacrificial system to be saved. Jesus would have been the only person to follow the Law perfectly and his commandments to anyone would have been under the Law.

Most of us know that we are no longer under the curse of the Law and works but under the New Covenant of faith and grace.

In the OT people were saved by God's grace through their faith, the same as now. They followed the laws out of obedience and love... or were supposed to.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Heb_11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.

etc.

RJ · Nov 16, 2011

agua said:
In the OT people were saved by God's grace through their faith, the same as now. They followed the laws out of obedience and love... or were supposed to.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Heb_11:4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.

etc.

No , it was not by faith in those days that saved. God credited some of them with righteousness because of their actions and all were under the law of works and sacrifices.

They were all still bound by a legalistic system of requirements that ended every year on the "Day of Atonement", this is how you gained salvation or as close as you could to it. In fact it was only a covering over of your sins until the next day of atonement. Jesus took away the sins of the world!

When Christ died, the temple veil that separated man from God and the temple "holy of holies" was torn in two. This signified that God no longer resided behind the veil or in the temple and the sacrificial system was abolished for the greater sacrifice in Jesus Christ.

Now, Jesus resides in us and we are the temple.

In your example above, Abel did have faith but it was his sacrifice (works) that he presented to God that attributed to his righteousness.

We are no longer under works and of course there are no more sacrificies.

Eccl12v13 · Nov 16, 2011

RJ said:
Now, Jesus resides in us and we are the temple.

How does Jesus resides is us? Let's read just how it is that Jesus dwells is us;

John 6
[27] Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

Let's read what this food is and what it will do for us....

[32] Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

And what was the bread from heaven?

[33] For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
[34] Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
[35] And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

So the bread of life was Jesus Christ. But did Jesus REALLY mean that HE was that bread and that HE was what should be eaten? Let's read....

[50] This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
[52] The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

It sure sounds as if He is telling them to eat His flesh. Even those present thought the same. But let's continue.....

[53] Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
[54] Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
[55] For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
[56] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

Jesus continues to baffle them with His sayings. But does He really mean to eat His flesh so that He may dwell is us? Let's read His answer....

[63] It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

So NOW we know how it is that Jesus dwells in us AND what will be the result of Him dwelling in us.

It is His WORDS that are spirit and that is how Jesus dwells within us. When we read His words, Gen. to Rev. Jesus then dwells within each of us. And what do these words give? Eternal life! Let's confirm;

[68] Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

Here we have read of yet another thing that gives eternal life; the WORDS of Jesus!

So we have to have faith for eternal life.
We have to obey for eternal life.
We have to have Jesus words inside of us for eternal life.
We need a preacher for eternal life.
And the preacher MUST be sent by God for eternal life.

ALL of the above are things Jesus said are needed for eternal life. These are His WORDS! Now when we hear these words do we sit back and just BELIEVE in them or do we DO those things that His words tell us to do?

.

Eccl12v13 · Nov 16, 2011

RJ said:
Jesus took away the sins of the world!

Did Jesus REALLY take away the sins of the world....OR.....did He redeem us from the curse of the law that said blood is required for the remission of sin?

Because if He took away ALL of the sins of the world, who is it that He is coming back to punish upon His return? Along with ruling the earth when He returns, is He not supposed to also punish those that transgressed HIs laws? How can He punish sinners if ALL of the sins of the world were taken away?

.

Peace Seeker · Nov 16, 2011

JonahofAkron said:
Until His death and resurrection?

Yes, as I understand it while Jesus was on Earth we were under the old covenant, after He returned to heaven we were placed under the new covenant.

RJ · Nov 16, 2011

Eccl12v13 said:
Did Jesus REALLY take away the sins of the world....OR.....did He redeem us from the curse of the law that said blood is required for the remission of sin?

Because if He took away ALL of the sins of the world, who is it that He is coming back to punish upon His return? Along with ruling the earth when He returns, is He not supposed to also punish those that transgressed HIs laws? How can He punish sinners if ALL of the sins of the world were taken away?

.

1 John2:2

2 He is the one who turns aside God’s wrath, taking away our sins, and not only ours but also the sins of the world

It is not a literal meaning such as Jesus has removed sins out of the world and we are now sin free.

It is a comparison between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.

In the Old Covenant sins were "covered over" and symbolically hidden from the eyes of God. But, it was a yearly process that ended in "The Day of Atonement"; only to be repeated year after year.

On the other hand, Jesus atonement was final and he symbolically took away the sins from the sight of God for ever.

Hebrews 8:12
For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”

gdemoss · Nov 16, 2011

Jonahofacron,

Glad to see your return. hope your day went well.

I apologize for not being specific enough.

Welcome to my world. :wink:

The point in both Hebrews and 2 Corinthians 3 is the effect of Messiah's substituted death penalty for the believer. The veil and the countenance of Moses are the primary points of contention here.

I'd like to limit discussing the 'point' to the 2 Corinthians 3 passage if you don't mind, unless you see them as inseparable. In 2 Cor 3 I don't see the effect of Christ's substituted death penalty for the believer as being part of the passage. I can only see the contrast being drawn by Paul between that which those who were under the OC recieved (commandments in stone) versus that which those under the NC recieved (ministration of the spirit).

I don't understand why you don't see this. Or how you do see this.

The story to read for context is Moses' descent from Mt. Sinai. He hides his face from the people in Exodus 34 because it shines, reflecting the glory of the lord; this was not to be permanent. It eventually faded because Moses was a sinful man like all of us. The reason for the fading of his shining face is the fact that sin and it's punishment, death, separate us from YHWH.

Yes, I am familiar with that story.

The statement that it faded because Moses was a sinful man, I have trouble with. I can't find that in scripture. I find that it faded but never given a reason as to why it did. How did you conclude it was due to his sinfulness?

Even though Moses can reflect the glory of God in spite of his sinfulness, how much more will the shining of believers be glorious when Messiah takes our sin from us?

Will as in future? The ministration of the spirit is a present tense event whose results are seen in the here and now.

Moses' face, though reflecting God's glory, was not originally this way: it is God that made it shine.

The glory spoken of in the passage was the glory of the Ten Commandments and not Moses' face.

Permanent reflection of Him is what remains because of the Spirit.

I understand. You perceive that that which is done away with is the glory of the shine on Moses face. I cannot get that no matter how many times I read this chapter.

As far as I understand the Greek, the phrase is actually handwriting of charges-as in 'list of sins'....I'm certain this is the point of the text and a necessary one at that.

I looked into the Greek because 'charges' would have completely changed my understanding. The correct rendering is 'ordinances' or 'decrees' which are basically laws. The word δόγμασιν can be found 5 times Luke 2:1, Acts 16:4, Acts 17:7, Eph 2:15 and in this verse in Col. Each time it speaks in regards to some type of law. Especially to note is Eph 2:15 where it speaks about 'abolishing in his flesh the enmity, the law of commandments written in ordinances'. These 'commandments' are what separated the Jews from the Gentiles. By their removal it says he brought the two together making one new man.

So when it says 'handwriting of ordinances that was against us' it is literally saying that the 'written law was our adversary'. One who would go up 'against' us. And it compliments that by adding that it was 'contrary' to us. Our 'list of sins' would not be contrary to us in the least.

I hope this is making sense. I know it goes against your current position but I am trying my best to be Berean and study, study, study. It is what the text is saying to me.

Writing to a community that is living in the midst of pagans, it seems far more plausible to believe Paul is telling this congregation to act in accordance with Messiah, not worrying about the fact that the practices of the community run counter to those of Messiah.

Col 2:16 comes on the heels of the previous study about handwriting in ordinances. Same context. Verse 16 actually starts with 'Therefore' in the Greek being a connector to the previous statements. Verses 8-15 are a complete thought followed by 16-19 as another but related to each other. The second being dependent on the first. So using your example of 'list of sins' being nailed to the cross and contrary to us there would be no reason for Paul to begin talking about ordinances like meats, drinks, holyday, or Sabbath. And finalize in speaking of Touch not, Handle not, Taste not. But if he were expounding on the previous paragraph including 'writing in ordinances' which were nailed to the cross then the next two paragraphs make sense.

I tried and tried to read it and see it the other way but it just doesn't work.

Why would he need to include something that is already known to the believers? I see no reason to believe that the absence of the commands is because they are not in use. It is the opposite.

Quality answer. In this case everyone without exception agrees on the Ten Commandments and therefore there is no reason to bring them up while the other things may have been questionable. I could see why you would see it that way. But if this kind of clarity was in effect then Paul would have no need to write to the Romans speaking of 5 of them. Just thinking out loud. There is no instance of new believers being addressed to learn and follow them as part of salvation. I understand that the absence doesn't constitute the opposite as true either. I have to say that 'if' the Ten Commandments weren't 'done away' with then your argument here would be plausible.

We should also look at the reason why this is written. The context is the Gentile believers being allowed into the Body of Messiah and the logistics of entry. Judaizers say that following the whole Torah and ritual circumcision (not just physical circumcision, but a sacrifice and baptism-showing conclusively that, since they do this upon believing [accepting Messiah's sacrifice is a twofold action of sacrificial fulfillment and circumcision of the heart], they shouldn't be made to do it again) is what one needs for salvation because it 'ensures' entry into Israel. Fortunately, this isn't how Israel was to operate and is not how Messiah operates-it has always been faith. Entrance into Israel has always been contingent on the circumcision of the heart.

Wow, that was a lot to unpack. Gentile believers being allowed into the body of Christ. I'm confused. By the time this letter was written Peter had already started adding Gentile believers to the church (Cornelius). And Paul had already finished his first missionary trip church planting Gentile churches. They were already a part of the body of Christ. The Judaizers are seeming to say that they weren't but they already were.

What is this teaching?

Sorry this was an inserted thought that meant the scriptures we are already discussing. Nevermind.

Isaiah discusses a future redemption coming and then goes on to say that Sabbaths are to be kept. I cannot see how we take it in any other way. Perhaps I've misread the issue. I will study it again to make sure that I completely understand the context.

And, no, I do not offer burnt sacrifices. It isn't practiced without a temple or ark with the mercy seat. Paul and Jesus both partook in feasts and the sacrificial system.

Could it be that Isaiah is seeing the future redemption that Paul spoke of for Israel? This very well could include a new temple and animal sacrifices. Just a thought. I haven't studied it out.

It is a pleasure to discuss with you. Let me know what you think. I will probably move some of this to another thread.

I enjoy the exchange as well as the time spent in the word seeking for clarity on what God Almighty would have of us. Do you classify yourself under any certain sect? Just curious. I do not. I was Baptist until I saw error.

have a blessed day.

Gary

agua · Nov 17, 2011

RJ said:
No , it was not by faith in those days that saved. God credited some of them with righteousness because of their actions and all were under the law of works and sacrifices.

Righteousness was credited to them because of their faith which led them to do good works . The same as today.

Rom 4:9-13 KJV Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. (10) he had being yet uncircumcised. (13) For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

They were all still bound by a legalistic system of requirements that ended every year on the "Day of Atonement", this is how you gained salvation or as close as you could to it. In fact it was only a covering over of your sins until the next day of atonement. Jesus took away the sins of the world!

The atonements/sacrifices of the Jews were not enough in God’s eye if they lacked faith, the same as today.

Isa 1:11-13 KJV To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. (12) When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? (13) Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

....
Isa 1:18-20 KJV Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. (19) If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: (20) But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

The sacrifices and burnt offerings didn’t save them.

When Christ died, the temple veil that separated man from God and the temple "holy of holies" was torn in two. This signified that God no longer resided behind the veil or in the temple and the sacrificial system was abolished for the greater sacrifice in Jesus Christ.

Now, Jesus resides in us and we are the temple.

In your example above, Abel did have faith but it was his sacrifice
(works) that he presented to God that attributed to his
righteousness.

Abels sacrifice was from his faithful heart. Notice Hebrews 11 is dealing with the actions of the patriarchs/OT Saints which came from their faith . Their faith drew the grace of God and their works were in unison with this. Same as today. Notice the sacrifice Abel offered provided evidence/witness of his faith.

Heb 11:4 KJV By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

We are no longer under works and of course there are no more sacrificies.

Heb 7:27 KJV Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

We have the once and for all time sacrifice covering us now praise Jesus ! and our works come out of obedience and love for God through faith; the same as Abel, Abraham. Etc.

agua · Nov 17, 2011

I just wanted to add that there is a modern misconception that the OT saints had no idea of salvation through faith. They looked forward with anticipation to the coming Saviour and knew it was by the grace of God that their faith saved them.

Rom 4:5-7 KJV But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, (7) Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Abraham knew the Lord was coming and looked forward to this day.

Joh 8:56 KJV Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:TrackMoves/> <w:TrackFormatting/> <w

unctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w

oNotPromoteQF/> <w:LidThemeOther>EN-US</w:LidThemeOther> <w:LidThemeAsian>X-NONE</w:LidThemeAsian> <w:LidThemeComplexScript>X-NONE</w:LidThemeComplexScript> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w

ontGrowAutofit/> <w:SplitPgBreakAndParaMark/> <w:EnableOpenTypeKerning/> <w

ontFlipMirrorIndents/> <w:OverrideTableStyleHps/> </w:Compatibility> <m:mathPr> <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/> <m:brkBin m:val="before"/> <m:brkBinSub m:val="--"/> <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/> <m:dispDef/> <m:lMargin m:val="0"/> <m:rMargin m:val="0"/> <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/> <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/> <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/> <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/> </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> The OT Saints looked forward to the coming Saviour and rejoiced while we look back and do the same. We’re all saved through faith in Jesus Christ.

my_little_pony · Nov 17, 2011

Hi Ozell,

this is something I will look into, but keep in mind that in the USA when you call a person MR, MRS, SIR, MAAM, it is not looked upon as the same as master.

And yet, the command is still there. See, that's the point. Are we able to do something Jesus tells us to do just because he told us to do it?

anyway the Lord knows the intent of the heart.

Yeah, so why DO people use these special titles like "Mr." and "Sir"? And what happens if they stop using those special titles for one another? I've seen people get VERY angry because they are not getting the "respect" they feel they deserve; the respect that these titles are meant to communicate.

Why should they get so angry about a title? Perhaps it is BECAUSE the lord knows the intent of the heart that he told us to stop using these special titles for one another.

the slaves had to call there overseers Master
the Roman Catholic call there spiritual leader Father
the Jews call there spiritual leader rabbi (master)
and the protestants call there spiritual leader reverend

is it possible that the Lord is speaking on a spiritual level.

Is it possible that when Jesus told Zach to come down from the tree, that he was just being spiritual? Is it possible that when he said "why do you call me Lord, but do not obey me"? that he was just being spiritual?

I am suggesting here, that Jesus did actually mean for his followers to take him seriiously when he gave instructions on what it means to be a part of the Kingdom of Heaven.

Some of those instructions came in the form of general teachings like parables or example. But there were OFTEN times when Jesus gave point blank commands, too.

If Jesus cannot tell us what to do, then who can? Was there any occasion where he gave a command which he meant for us to take literally, and how do you know the difference between a literal command and a spiritual command?

What good is salvation if we don't want to learn the values of the Kingdom of Heaven, and why would God want to save someone in that situation?

ozell · Nov 17, 2011

=my_little_pony;188779]Hi Ozell,

And yet, the command is still there. See, that's the point. Are we able to do something Jesus tells us to do just because he told us to do it?

peace MLP

the command is not to call any man master, rabbi, reverend and father.

where is it written to call no man Mr, Mrs, Sir?

is this your own thoughts or understanding?

Yeah, so why DO people use these special titles like "Mr." and "Sir"? And what happens if they stop using those special titles for one another? I've seen people get VERY angry because they are not getting the "respect" they feel they deserve; the respect that these titles are meant to communicate.

I do know what you are saying because the elders at the bible class I attend don't like for me to use the word sir when addressing them.

so I use the word elder instead

yet in the world we are to obey the laws of the land and those who have rule over you like a boss on the job.

Colossians 3:22
Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God;

Ephesians 6:5
Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;

Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Why should they get so angry about a title? Perhaps it is BECAUSE the lord knows the intent of the heart that he told us to stop using these special titles for one another.

I understand what you are saying because what you are saying is gentiles teaching and doings

Matthew 20:24-26

24And when the ten heard it, they were moved with indignation against the two brethren.
25But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. 26But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;

Is it possible that when Jesus told Zach to come down from the tree, that he was just being spiritual? Is it possible that when he said "why do you call me Lord, but do not obey me"? that he was just being spiritual?

this is apple and oranges you use.

lets read what Jesus said

Matthew 23:8-10

8But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

we have an earthly father which is our birth father so what term is the Lord using father in? spiritual

the master part is very simple to understand and the slave owners and rabbi's will pay for it on judgement day

Psalm 111:9
He sent redemption unto his people: he hath commanded his covenant for ever: holy and reverend is his name.

we should not call a man reverend because reverend is God's name.

I am suggesting here, that Jesus did actually mean for his followers to take him seriiously when he gave instructions on what it means to be a part of the Kingdom of Heaven.

take Jesus serious or no just do what he says.

Some of those instructions came in the form of general teachings like parables or example. But there were OFTEN times when Jesus gave point blank commands, too.

we are on the same page

If Jesus cannot tell us hat to do, then who can? Was there any occasion where he gave a command which he meant for us to take literally, and how do you know the difference between a literal command and a spiritual command?

the discussion has a literal intent but a spiritual meaning

What good is salvation if we don't want to learn the values of the Kingdom of Heaven, and why would God want to save someone in that situation?

you get no argument from me MLP, I'm with you on most of it even all of it

but MLP you have to show the people God said it in his book

his is what I am taught at the bible class I attend

prove it.

peace in Jesus mighty name

ozell · Nov 17, 2011

agua said:
I just wanted to add that there is a modern misconception that the OT saints had no idea of salvation through faith. They looked forward with anticipation to the coming Saviour and knew it was by the grace of God that their faith saved them.

Rom 4:5-7 KJV But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, (7) Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Abraham knew the Lord was coming and looked forward to this day.

Joh 8:56 KJV Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

The OT Saints looked forward to the coming Saviour and rejoiced while we look back and do the same. We’re all saved through faith in Jesus Christ.

this is a reason to read Hebrews 11 the faith chapter

look at each and everyone of these names mentioned and there faith is well documented even where they will get into the kingdom of God

are we really sure?

Hebrews 11

1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
4By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
7By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
11Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
17By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
21By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.
22By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.
23By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.
24By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
25Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
26Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
27By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
28Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
29By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.
30By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days.
31By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
32And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
33Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.
34Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.
35Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
36And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
37They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
38(Of whom the world was not worthy

they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

ozell · Nov 17, 2011

where is our good report by faith?

in other words what have we done?

the report is in heaven being written down it is called the book of life

we have a glimpse of the OT saints spoken of by Paul and written in the OT.

we have some of there report

Hebrews 11
39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

ozell · Nov 17, 2011

=RJ;188721]O.k. brother ozell, you finally opened up yourself to a serious flaw in your thinking of salvation by works.

Your qoute and use of Matthew 19 is completely out of context and relates in works only as a part of the Old Covenant law

.

Peace in Jesus RJ

lets me start off by saying God never told you to read his word in context, so this is why I know most people who read his word that way don't understand his word

this is how we are told to read his bible

Isaiah 28

9Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. 13But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Jesus was indeed telling to keep the commandments to have eternal life but, what you fail to see is that he was doing this under the Old Covenant Law requirements, which required works.

what works?

how hard is it to not steal, kill, lie or covet?

New Covenant grace was not ushered in until the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Your quote and command by Jesus was done under the Old Covenant and not the New Covenant.

where is the words New Covenant Grace written?

the same grace Noah is under we are under, WHY?

it is written

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

so when did grace change since Jesus is grace?

Before his death on the cross, Jesus was a strict follower of his Father's Old Covenant which required works and a sacrificial system to be saved. Jesus would have been the only person to follow the Law perfectly and his commandments to anyone would have been under the Law.

it is written that Abraham kept the law

Genesis 26:5
Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws

we read that Enoch Pleased God

Hebrews 11:5
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

How?

Genesis 5:24
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

so why would God give us commandments we can't keep?
why would Jesus tell the man to keep somethig that he would do away with soon?

your logic don't make sense

Most of us know that we are no longer under the curse of the Law and works but under the New Covenant of faith and grace.

I know

yet most of you don't know whjat law you are not under.

what law is the curse?

tell me which one of these commandments is a curse

Exodus 20

1And God spake all these words, saying,
2I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
12Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
13Thou shalt not kill.
14Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15Thou shalt not steal.
16Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. 17Thou shalt not covet

So Jesus gave us a curse to follow?
which one is a curse?

ozell · Nov 17, 2011

Peace Seeker said:
Yes, as I understand it while Jesus was on Earth we were under the old covenant, after He returned to heaven we were placed under the new covenant.

where is this written?

when Jesus was in heaven Paul said

Romans 13

7Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

8Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

9For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

10Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

RJ · Nov 17, 2011

agua said:
Righteousness was credited to them because of their faith which led them to do good works . The same as today.

Rom 4:9-13 KJV Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. (10) he had being yet uncircumcised. (13) For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

The atonements/sacrifices of the Jews were not enough in God’s eye if they lacked faith, the same as today.

Isa 1:11-13 KJV To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. (12) When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? (13) Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

....
Isa 1:18-20 KJV Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. (19) If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: (20) But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

The sacrifices and burnt offerings didn’t save them.

Abels sacrifice was from his faithful heart. Notice Hebrews 11 is dealing with the actions of the patriarchs/OT Saints which came from their faith . Their faith drew the grace of God and their works were in unison with this. Same as today. Notice the sacrifice Abel offered provided evidence/witness of his faith.

Heb 11:4 KJV By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Heb 7:27 KJV Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

We have the once and for all time sacrifice covering us now praise Jesus ! and our works come out of obedience and love for God through faith; the same as Abel, Abraham. Etc.

With all do respect, if you are saying that they were saved by grace in the Old Covenant then God would not have abolished it for the New.

Yes the Bible mentions faith in the Old Testament. All to a degree these men all had some faith: Noah had it, Moses had it and Abraham had it to name a few and yes, God did credit them with righteousness because of it. Make no mistake though, they were all under a legalistic and sacrifical system which all participated in as required under the LAW.

They did not have a salvation based on faith as we have under the New Covenant, where a sacrificial system and the Law was done away with.
Again, if they could have been saved by their faith and not their works, then there would have been no need for a better sacrifice and no need for Jesus Christ.

Welcome!

Are you really saved?

Active

Member

Member

Member

Member

Active

Member

Member

Member

Active

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Active

Members Online

Trending content

Newest members

Community Stats