peace in Jesus
Are you really saved?
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peace in Jesus
Donnie Ducati
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So let me understand you ozell , you've discovered all the hidden meanings of scripture (and some) that the Church has held to for centuries , and what the patriarchs and marders of ol' shed there very blood for is now irrelevant ?
Thiscrosshurts
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Time is relative to mass and speed in this universe,the only stable time is God's time and that is the "DAY" Jesus Christ.The corporate body of Christ should be living in the "Day" now.
It seems to me that Ephesians 2:6 is telling me when it took place.
It probably won't manifest on the earth until someone believes what God says.If no one believes then I suppose it will have to wait to the second coming.
Actually there is an exception,he that came down from heaven.
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
It also seems that when Jesus ascended he had company.
I know that all this suggests a duality in our nature as believers but John 3:13 suggests a duality in Jesus who purchased us.
The one from above is the new creature created in Christ.
Our part is to put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
The new creature in us (if we have put it on) cannot sin.
The old man can never be free from sin.
It's up to me whether I choose to believe I am the old or the new.
It's my understanding that we will be flesh after the resurrection also.
Right now our life is in the blood.Jesus after he resurrected said he was flesh and bone.
Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
According to Romans 8:11 he who raised us up with Jesus can give life to our mortal bodies now.
Hello ozell.
I am struggling to follow your posts. They seem scrambled.
You stated,
"I don't expect you to get what I put right away but what I hope is that
you read the scriptures and verses and connect them with the topic\subject"
That is what "context" means ozell. You seem to not adhere to
context in your quotes.
You need to constuct your posts so that readers may understand
your argument. This means that your scriptural references must
be in context with the subject thread.
A clear line of thought explaining your position would help.
Look at RJ's posts, they are clear and and easy to understand.
Keep it simple too.
I am struggling to follow your posts. They seem scrambled.
You stated,
"I don't expect you to get what I put right away but what I hope is that
you read the scriptures and verses and connect them with the topic\subject"
That is what "context" means ozell. You seem to not adhere to
context in your quotes.
You need to constuct your posts so that readers may understand
your argument. This means that your scriptural references must
be in context with the subject thread.
A clear line of thought explaining your position would help.
Look at RJ's posts, they are clear and and easy to understand.
Keep it simple too.
no
what I have done is found a place of worship that reads and believe all that is written in the word of God.
what are these things you speak of?
and where did I write that Jesus blood is not relevant?
David
what is scrambled?
what I personally post is irrelevant.
what verse or scripturres I put which is the word of God is what matters.
why do you and others don't understand what I post is because of doctrine that is ALREADY in your mind.
again the Lord said read line upon line precept upon precept not in context.
is line upon line precept upon precept the same as context?
is rightly dividing the word of God the same as context?
the way I post is as simple and basic as I can do, because I am a simple and basic person.
try reading God's word the way he set it up and not the way man has told us to read it.
try not to look on my grammar and word and sentence construction
Ephesians 2
<SUP id=en-KJV-29231 class=versenum>1</SUP>And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
<SUP id=en-KJV-29232 class=versenum>2</SUP>Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
<SUP id=en-KJV-29233 class=versenum>3</SUP>Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
<SUP id=en-KJV-29234 class=versenum>4</SUP>But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
<SUP id=en-KJV-29235 class=versenum>5</SUP>Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
<SUP id=en-KJV-29236 class=versenum>6</SUP>And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: to better help in understanding i will ask questions like
when will we be raised with Paul? reference the 6th verse above
Paul is dead, so we have to go with Jesus who said he would raised the dead on the last day
John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Paul said in Hebrews 11 that we will not get perfection without him
,
Paul is dead and we are alive
Hebrews 11
<SUP id=en-KJV-30213 class=versenum>40</SUP>God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
lets look at the first and fifth verse in Ephesians 2 at the word quicken which means make alive
1 Corinthians 15:36
Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
and
1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
and
2 Timothy 4:1
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2 Timothy+4:1-3&version=KJVthe word quickened or quick mean to make alive
when are the dead and living made alive, when Jesus returns.
Jesus is the only man to descend and ascend from heaven
he came as God, take on the form of a man, raised back to become God
if you put on the new man spiritually (obeying God's word) you stiull have the chance of sinning even though you have changed you way of thinking
when we put on the new man physically(resurrection) we cannot sin
we have become a new man(spirit being)
can we be resurrected to flesh when we are already flesh
read 1 corithians 15
Thiscrosshurts
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Yes:
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
I agree,it is a process of being transformed.
Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Paul explored this in Romans 7&8.He concluded that it was no longer he that sinned,but sin itself that was in him.He never got to complete the transformation himself because he was killed.
Philippians 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
The dead in Christ can include those who have put on the new man,the old has passed away and ALL things are new.His life is not in the blood but in Christ.We can hear his voice today through his living word ministered by the Holy Spirit.
Just because no one has done it(unless they are hiding) does not mean it is impossible.
Jesus said we would do greater works than him and we haven't seen that yet either.Why?
Because of unbelief.
Jesus said he "is the resurrection".
He is also the "day",the last day.
He IS the resurrection on the last day.
I suppose if no one ever gets it then he will have to come and resurrect us all at some point.
The time IS coming,but time for those who believe it already is.
2 Corinthians 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
I'm actually not in disagreement with you.I just added a dimension that is out of time.Jesus IS the day,the resurrection,the way,the truth,the light, the "coming" and the "now is".
Hebrews 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Peace
my_little_pony
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Hi Will. I know what you mean. However, I slightly disagree with you. I say slightly, because it is very difficult for me to even know what another person's salvation means.
I care about other people's salvation, but it's difficult to even know if that person is saved or not, because the final decision on that is up to god.
I may have all the scriptural support in the world to reason that such and such person is not saved, and yet, God could over rule me despite my very right understanding of his words.
The best I can hope for is to teach people to follow the example of Jesus and hope that those people will ask god for themselves to show them what Jesus wants them to do.
I ozell. I am not suggesting that one piece of scripture contradicts another.ozell said:
I'm just saying what Jesus said. From day to day, the wind can blow, or maybe it will not blow. Sometimes it is hard, and sometimes it is soft. Sometimes it is cold and sometimes it is hot. Sometimes it carries a faint refreshing smell of flowers and sometimes it carries the odor of rotting flesh. However,despite all these changing variables, it is still the wind.
Sometimes God tells us to zig and sometimes he tells us to zag. The point is, are we listening and even then, are we willing to act on what he says?
ozell said:
This response is not posted directly to ozell, but I feel he gives an interesting response. My question was, how do we know we are not saved? I felt that looking at the question of "how do we know we are saved" from a slightly different angle may yield some insight on the issue.
Ozell's response appears to be "no". lol, well, okay, as grammatically odd as that response is, it's still interesting.
In the gospels, we can see many, many examples of Jesus giving commands to his followers. Not general teachings or parables, but actually, literal commands. In some cases, Jesus made the point that people could not be his follower if they were unwilling to obey these commands (i.e. Luke 14:33 whosoever ye be that forsaketh not all that he hath cannot be my disciple".)
Jesus also said "why do you call me Lord, but do not obey me"? and "he who obeys me is he who shows he loves me".
If we consider that Jesus came to teach about the values of the Kingdom of Heaven, then it makes sense for him to say that anyone who does NOT obey him is NOT part of the Kingdom of Heaven.
Therefore I suggest that, if we want to know what "salvation" is, then I suggest we talk about what Jesus expected his followers to do with their lives.
No
let go over to Mark and look at what was Jesus when he came out of the grave
Mark 16:11-13
<SUP id=en-KJV-24885 class=versenum>11</SUP>And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
<SUP id=en-KJV-24886 class=versenum>12</SUP>After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country. <SUP id=en-KJV-24887 class=versenum>13</SUP>And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
lets look at the verses you quoted above and in a different book same event but more added and see if we can do what Jesus had done in the chapter
John 20
<SUP>19</SUP>Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
<SUP id=en-KJV-26888 class=versenum>20</SUP>And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the LORD.
<SUP id=en-KJV-26889 class=versenum>21</SUP>Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
<SUP id=en-KJV-26890 class=versenum>22</SUP>And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
<SUP id=en-KJV-26891 class=versenum>23</SUP>Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
<SUP id=en-KJV-26892 class=versenum>24</SUP>But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
<SUP id=en-KJV-26893 class=versenum>25</SUP>The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
<SUP id=en-KJV-26894 class=versenum>26</SUP>And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
<SUP id=en-KJV-26895 class=versenum>27</SUP>Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. <SUP id=en-KJV-26896 class=versenum>28</SUP>And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.
if Jesus was flesh and blood would he be able to appear in a room with the door being closed?
who told you Paul was killed?
where do you read this at
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
the new man is a new way of thinking until the Lord comes
listen to what is commanded here
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
how do we do this?
our new way of thinking, God's way of thinking
I can see you are not I just want to add more to what you are saying.
thanks for responding
we need to know what Jesus wants us to do to be saved and this is where it starts
the Lord said we must endure
Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
there is a process to being saved and we won't know the result until the resurrections.
what have you doen to be saved now?
what have you done to be saved when the Lord returns?
what do with the word shall in shall be saved?
Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+10:21-23&version=KJV
what have you done to be saved when the Lord returns?
what do with the word shall in shall be saved?
Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+10:21-23&version=KJV
if we are saved now why are we told to overcome long after Jesus death and resurrection?
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 2:26
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Revelation 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Revelation 21:7
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 2:26
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Revelation 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Revelation 21:7
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
my_little_pony
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Hi Ozell,
Well, I'm not sure that it's really a matter of "where it starts" not.
I think you are correct that we need to know what Jesus wants us to do, but then again just knowing isn't really enough either. At the end of Jesus' sermon on the mount he told a parable about 2 people. The first person heard Jesus' teachings but did not obey them. Jesus said this person was foolish.
The second person heard Jesus' teachings and obeyed them. Jesus said this person was wise.
In both cases the people heard Jesus' teachings; they both knew what he wanted them to do. But only one obeyed.
I like the verses you posted about overcoming and enduring, but once again, anyone can say such things.
What do those phases mean in the context of Jesus' commands for how we should live life?
For example, Jesus said a lot about money issues and what our jobs as Christians should be. How do you see those teachings, for example, supporting your comments about enduring to the end?
Well, I'm not sure that it's really a matter of "where it starts" not.
I think you are correct that we need to know what Jesus wants us to do, but then again just knowing isn't really enough either. At the end of Jesus' sermon on the mount he told a parable about 2 people. The first person heard Jesus' teachings but did not obey them. Jesus said this person was foolish.
The second person heard Jesus' teachings and obeyed them. Jesus said this person was wise.
In both cases the people heard Jesus' teachings; they both knew what he wanted them to do. But only one obeyed.
I like the verses you posted about overcoming and enduring, but once again, anyone can say such things.
What do those phases mean in the context of Jesus' commands for how we should live life?
For example, Jesus said a lot about money issues and what our jobs as Christians should be. How do you see those teachings, for example, supporting your comments about enduring to the end?
Thiscrosshurts
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I said flesh and bone not flesh and blood.
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
According to the scriptures,yes.
There is no proof but tradition has it that he was beheaded in Rome.
Yes,that new way of thinking is death to sin in the flesh.We can die while still in the body.
Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Romans 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1 Cor.15:51 tells me sleep or death of the body is not a prerequisite to be changed.
This does not make any sense to me.
As far as I can see I would need to strip out lots of scripture to hold your position.If your position is correct then it's all up to man to save himself by enduring to the end of the tribulation.
Mark 10:26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
Mark 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible
This verse tells me that believing that Jesus is the son of God IS overcoming the world.
We can walk in this new life now or spend every minute worried and repenting about being human.
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my_little_pony
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I'm a bit surprized that Ozell hasn't hit me with 5 posts in a row!
ha...
Hey thiscrosshurts,
I kinda feel like the comments I made toward Ozell apply to what you've said here also.
Ozell talked about verses where the words "overcome" and "endure" are used and I asked him how he felt those words applied to the teachings of Jesus, in a practical way.
Your response is to use words like "believe" and "walk". But again, what do they mean? HOW do we apply words like that in a way that actually SHOWS something to the world around us, and is also consistent with the teachings of Jesus?
Phrases like "washed in the blood", "spirit filled", "Bible believing", "personal relationship", "relying on him", etc, etc, etc all become in-group out-group jargon unless we have some way of relating it back to what Jesus actually told us to do with life.
ha...
thiscrosshurts said:
Hey thiscrosshurts,
I kinda feel like the comments I made toward Ozell apply to what you've said here also.
Ozell talked about verses where the words "overcome" and "endure" are used and I asked him how he felt those words applied to the teachings of Jesus, in a practical way.
Your response is to use words like "believe" and "walk". But again, what do they mean? HOW do we apply words like that in a way that actually SHOWS something to the world around us, and is also consistent with the teachings of Jesus?
Phrases like "washed in the blood", "spirit filled", "Bible believing", "personal relationship", "relying on him", etc, etc, etc all become in-group out-group jargon unless we have some way of relating it back to what Jesus actually told us to do with life.
Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Proverbs 21:23
Whoso keepeth his mouth and his tongue keepeth his soul from troubles
1 Timothy 6:9-11
<SUP id=en-KJV-29798 class=versenum>9</SUP>But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
<SUP id=en-KJV-29799 class=versenum>10</SUP>For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
<SUP id=en-KJV-29800 class=versenum></SUP>
<SUP class=versenum>11</SUP>But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
2 Timothy 2:3
Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 4:5
But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.
1 Peter 2:18-20
<SUP id=en-KJV-30418 class=versenum>18</SUP>Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
<SUP id=en-KJV-30419 class=versenum></SUP>
<SUP class=versenum>19</SUP>For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
<SUP id=en-KJV-30420 class=versenum>20</SUP>For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
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Mark 4:18-20
<SUP id=en-KJV-24342 class=versenum>18</SUP>And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
<SUP id=en-KJV-24343 class=versenum></SUP>
<SUP class=versenum>19</SUP>And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful. <SUP id=en-KJV-24344 class=versenum></SUP>
<SUP class=versenum>20</SUP>And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.
Luke 8:13-15
<SUP id=en-KJV-25259 class=versenum>13</SUP>They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
<SUP id=en-KJV-25260 class=versenum></SUP>
<SUP class=versenum>14</SUP>And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. <SUP id=en-KJV-25261 class=versenum></SUP>
<SUP class=versenum>15</SUP>But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
not all will be saved so much for OSAS
<SUP id=en-KJV-24342 class=versenum>18</SUP>And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
<SUP id=en-KJV-24343 class=versenum></SUP>
<SUP class=versenum>19</SUP>And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful. <SUP id=en-KJV-24344 class=versenum></SUP>
<SUP class=versenum>20</SUP>And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.
Luke 8:13-15
<SUP id=en-KJV-25259 class=versenum>13</SUP>They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
<SUP id=en-KJV-25260 class=versenum></SUP>
<SUP class=versenum>14</SUP>And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. <SUP id=en-KJV-25261 class=versenum></SUP>
<SUP class=versenum>15</SUP>But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.
not all will be saved so much for OSAS
