Are you really saved?

ozell · Nov 3, 2011

my_little_pony said:
Maybe it would be helpful to ask the question backwards. How do you know when you are not saved?

no.

really how do you know you are saved?

these people in Matthew 7 did not find out that they would NOT get into God's kingdom until judgement day and read what all they had doe up until that day

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

some where along the line these people thought they had made the saved
wrong!!

ozell · Nov 3, 2011

Thiscrosshurts;187679]Matthew 24:13“But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
Matthew 24:14“This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

What would the end be?
The end of the persons life?

end of life is the end for the individual but the world continues

so the end is actually when the Lord comes.

example

Adam has been dead for 5000+ years yet life has gone forward since then. so the end has not come in 6000+ years

Or the end of the series of events Jesus was describing?
How can those who did not stay alive to the end endure?

what series of events there are many future signs still not fulfilled preaching the gospel to all the world is just one of them and this has not happened.

those who are dead had endured until the end of there life.

If they had been completely delivered from sin they would not have experienced death.
The wages of sin is death so wouldn't death be a sign of failure?

the bible speaks of 2 deaths

Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

That may be another subject but I think it would be easier to explain your position on "when saved" if you explained your understanding of heaven.
The Jews had a very different concept of heaven and the world to come than modern Christianity does.I tend to use the Jewish understanding when interpreting scripture

no

the topic is are you really saved which is a different topic of when saved which is a different subject that heaven

even though they are all interlocked they are different subject and should be discussed separate.

ozell · Nov 3, 2011

Thiscrosshurts said:
It doesn't say spiritual death.
Are there any scriptures to back that up?

Yes,because of sin.Being forgiven doesn't necessarily(although it can) cancel out the negative effects of sin.

physically

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

spiritually
[URL="javascript:{}"]Revelation 2:11[/URL]
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

[URL="javascript:{}"]Revelation 20:6[/URL]
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

[URL="javascript:{}"]Revelation 20:14[/URL]
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

[URL="javascript:{}"]Revelation 21:8[/URL]
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

ozell · Nov 3, 2011

SpiritLedEd said:
I would add that the "love, obedience and humility" you refer to, Davy, are empowered by the Holy Spirit; "for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to His good purpose."
(Php 2:13)

SLE

The Holy spirit job is this and only this according to Jesus

John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

and

John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

some where in a persons life if he is to follow Jesus he must have had to learn something about Jesus for the HS to intervene.

ozell · Nov 3, 2011

will said:
On the mark!

We often are too focused to prove some theology or doctrine as being wrong, that we forget what really matters which is spreading the Gospel to those who has not even heard it.

Whether you regard OSAS as true or not, you still have to continually be filled by the Holy Spirit and follow His illumination to fulfill the Great Commission in your own unique circumstances of life.

Focus on deepening your relationship with God through Scriptures, if you think you understand the passage correctly, good, praise God and keep studying, it's much better than worrying about what other people think about certain doctrines and sow dispute among brothers and sisters.

Just admit it, we don't really care about the other person's salvation, especially when we are arguing with him/her about doctrines. We just like to think that they are wrong and only we know how to interpret the Scriptures properly.

What a sad way to show love to fellow believers. Please stop and rethink about what you are saved for.

For sure the Lord didn't save us just so we can bicker about who is right and who is wrong. The first 12 disciples did that and the Lord rebuked them.

we must teach what is written in God's word

not one apostle or propht said they were saved.

Jesus himself did not say he was saved

yet we have a doctrine that teach we are osas which is not correct.

the Lord left many many example explaining this

Matthew 7

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

these people thought they were saved and they found out on judgement day that they were not.

ozell · Nov 3, 2011

Jesus said

Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

if the creator of all flesh tells us to endure unto the end and at that time we SHALL (future) be saved then this is what we must go with

even the apostles understood this

1 Corinthians 13:7
Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

James 1:12
Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

when do we get our crown of life(eternal life)

when Jesus return.

whether we be dead or alive

why?

Revelation 22:12
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Jesus reward is with him when he returns.

Thiscrosshurts · Nov 3, 2011

Thanks for answering,that's what I thought you meant.
Which brings up the next question.

end of life is the end for the individual but the world continues

so the end is actually when the Lord comes.

Matthew 24:13“But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
Matthew 24:14“This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
If you are treating these verses(literally) as an end time event then an individual who did not experience them would not be able to endure until the end.In the context it would refer to those enduring this event.

If you were treating the context as figurative or speaking of a pattern then all individuals throughout time would apply.In that case I would tend to agree however I would have to take time out of the entire context and interpret it figuratively.

what series of events there are many future signs still not fulfilled preaching the gospel to all the world is just one of them and this has not happened.

The series of events the Jesus begins describing in 24:3-14.
Matthew 24:3 As he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, his disciples came to him privately and said, “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

In other words I have to follow a literal(time constrained) interpretation and context or a figurative or cryptic(timeless) interpretation that describes a pattern every believer will encounter on his journey.

some where in a persons life if he is to follow Jesus he must have had to learn something about Jesus for the HS to intervene.

I agree,which leads me to believe your interpretation of the discourse in Matthew describes an event or pattern of events every individual will have to endure.
James 1:12 and Matt.10:22 ties in well to the figurative interpretation because it is not time constrained.

James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

So the next question I would have to ask to understand your position is do you take Matt.24:3-14 literally?

Donnie Ducati · Nov 3, 2011

ozell, You seem to have some Calvinism mixed in with a little Mormonism , shaken up in what the Jehovah Witnesses teach. I can see some Catholicism in your ways also.

Do you consider yourself to be a "Born Again Christian" ? According to Romans 10:9-10.

ozell · Nov 4, 2011

Donnie Ducati;187794]ozell, You seem to have some Calvinism mixed in with a little Mormonism , shaken up in what the Jehovah Witnesses teach. I can see some Catholicism in your ways also.

Hi

I don't beleive or follow the doctrine calvanism, nor the Mormon or jehovah witness, I certianly don't acknowledge the doctrine of the Roman Catholic church.

what I beleive is written in the pages of the KJV bible that we read.

the worst thing that a follower of Jesus could do is join or follow a denomination and there doctrine

Do you consider yourself to be a "Born Again Christian" ? According to Romans 10:9-10.

Click to expand...

according to Peter which Romans 10 and John 3 is in line with we are not born again until we make our change from flesh to spirit.

1 Peter 1:23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Peter+1:22-24&version=KJV

ozell · Nov 4, 2011

=Thiscrosshurts;187790]Thanks for answering,that's what I thought you meant.
Which brings up the next question.

Matthew 24:13“But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
Matthew 24:14“This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
If you are treating these verses(literally) as an end time event then an individual who did not experience them would not be able to endure until the end.In the context it would refer to those enduring this event.

If you were treating the context as figurative or speaking of a pattern then all individuals throughout time would apply.In that case I would tend to agree however I would have to take time out of the entire context and interpret it figuratively.

How about reading it the way the Lord said read his word?

Isaiah 28

9Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
10For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. 13But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

and

2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2 Timothy+2:14-16&version=KJV
God said read his word in this manner.
reading God's word in context is mans rule.

The series of events the Jesus begins describing in 24:3-14.
Matthew 24:3 As he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, his disciples came to him privately and said, “Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

In other words I have to follow a literal(time constrained) interpretation and context or a figurative or cryptic(timeless) interpretation that describes a pattern every believer will encounter on his journey.

I agree,which leads me to believe your interpretation of the discourse in Matthew describes an event or pattern of events every individual will have to endure.
James 1:12 and Matt.10:22 ties in well to the figurative interpretation because it

this verse should help

Job 7:1
Is there not an appointed time to man upon earth? are not his days also like the days of an hireling?

Habakkuk 2:3
For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Habakkuk+2:2-4&version=KJV)

Ecclesiastes 3

1To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
2A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
3A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
4A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
5A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
6A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
7A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
8A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
9What profit hath he that worketh in that wherein he laboureth?
10I have seen the travail, which God hath given to the sons of men to be exercised in it. 11He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

So the next question I would have to ask to understand your position is do you take Matt.24:3-14 literally?

Click to expand...

yes

Matthew 24

1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

we have proof of solomon temple
we have proof of false prophets
we have proof of wars and rumors of wars
we have proof of famines, earthquakes, pestilence
we have a gospel

of course Matthew 24 is literal

ozell · Nov 4, 2011

Revelation 21:23-25

23And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 

25And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

an example of being saved in the end

are there nations saved today?
yet there will be nations saved in the end time.

ozell · Nov 4, 2011

when reading God's word we are told to read his word and teach his word line upon line precept upon precept, here a little and there a little

Isaiah 28

9Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

10For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

11For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

12To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. 
13But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

nowhere it God's word are we told to read it in context.

this is why we have so many interpretations like OSAS

ozell · Nov 4, 2011

how do you know you are saved when the righteous are scarcely saved?

1 Peter 4:18
And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Peter+4:17-19&version=KJV

ozell · Nov 4, 2011

did the Lord ever say he was saved?

how about the apostles, surely one prophet had to say they were saved?

no not one even one apostle or prophet said they were saved,

who then can be saved?

Mark 10:25-27

25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

26And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved? 
27And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

Jesus saves

so when are you really saved?

when Jesus returns.

ozell · Nov 4, 2011

the question need to be asked

what are we saved from?

Thiscrosshurts · Nov 4, 2011

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

How about reading it the way the Lord said read his word?

I'm trying to follow your position on this so answers like this don't really help.That simply infers that I am incapable of interpreting scripture properly.

I follow what your saying so far but there is much to consider.
I am receiving with all readiness of mind and I need to search the scriptures to see whether these things are so.
There are some issues with time(or the lack of it)fitting into what you have presented.

Example:
Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

This happened 2000 years ago.How do I fit that in with waiting until the end?

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

What are we waiting for,the hour "now is"?

ozell · Nov 4, 2011

Thiscrosshurts;187831]Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

I'm trying to follow your position on this so answers like this don't really help.That simply infers that I am incapable of interpreting scripture properly.

this is not my intent to humiliate, so please don't become emotional with me. the way we are to read God's word is written and my intent was to put the scripture for support. I don't know what you are incapable of doing this is why i can't agree wit your response.

I follow what your saying so far but there is much to consider.
I am receiving with all readiness of mind and I need to search the scriptures to see whether these things are so.
There are some issues with time(or the lack of it)fitting into what you have presented.

this is why I'm putting verses and scriptures because of your openness. I don't expect you to get what I put right away but what I hope is that you read the scriptures and verses and connect them with the topic\subject

Example:
Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

This happened 2000 years ago.How do I fit that in with waiting until the end?

show me where anyone has set with Jesus and the Father in heavenly places.

yet I can read to you where no man has ascended up to heaven except Jesus when he was in the flesh

John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

so this verse cancel out Ephesians as far as man sitting with Jesus in heaven

so we look else where for answers.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

What are we waiting for,the hour "now is"?

Click to expand...

the hour is coming when all the dead will hear Jesus voice

lets go read that

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

when the Lord shouted what happened the dead was raised

again lets read

Revelation 11:11-13

7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

8And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 

11And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.


12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. 
13And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

come up hither were the words spoken/shouted these are the words that the dead heard when Jesus came.

again please don't take it personal I do not humiliate people, nor do I embarrass them.

peace in Jesus

Thiscrosshurts · Nov 4, 2011

show me where anyone has set with Jesus and the Father in heavenly places.

Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

The term hath raised means past event but does not necessarily apply to our time constrained universe.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Jesus said this before he ascended into heaven.He was standing in our universe in our timeline.But he was obviously referring to something out of time.He was the son of man and he claimed he was in heaven at that moment.Ephesians was written after he had gone to be with the Father(ascended)Ephesians was written after Jesus resurrection and it's message is pegged to the resurrection so I doubt it's message is canceled.

We must be born from above.The man from above is the new creature created in Christ.The old man can never ascend,only the one who came from above.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The seed of God is the new man born from above.He was born from God that's why he cannot sin.The old man is born of flesh and can never be sinless.We have to put on the new man.

Ephesians 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

ozell · Nov 4, 2011

Thiscrosshurts;187849]Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

The term hath raised means past event but does not necessarily apply to our time constrained universe.

when in our time?

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Jesus said this before he ascended into heaven.He was standing in our universe in our timeline.But he was obviously referring to something out of time.He was the son of man and he claimed he was in heaven at that moment.Ephesians was written after he had gone to be with the Father(ascended)Ephesians was written after Jesus resurrection and it's message is pegged to the resurrection so I doubt it's message is canceled.

what does John 3v13 say?

no man has ascended to heaven, this is what we read in the verse. no other interpretation is needed.

We must be born from above.The man from above is the new creature created in Christ.The old man can never ascend,only the one who came from above.

when are we born from above?

right now we are born from the earth.

Gensis 2
7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Genesis 3

17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt
eat the herb of the field; 
19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

man is from the earth and goes back to the earth

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The seed of God is the new man born from above.He was born from God that's why he cannot sin.The old man is born of flesh and can never be sinless.We have to put on the new man.

Ephesians 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Click to expand...

where are we free from sin?

right now we are from the earth we are flesh until the fitst resurrection.

ozell · Nov 4, 2011

Paul is telling these gentiles that they must change there way of thinking /? , 
why there way 0f thinking, becuase if it was a spiritual lesson paul would not hje said put away lyinhg, steal no more 
People born again cant sin.


Ephesian 4. 
22That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
26Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27Neither give place to the devil.
28Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
29Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. 30And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

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