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Are we saved by our own efforts or are we saved by God's efforts ?

Salvation, ... This is God offering Christ on the Cross to SINNERS.............SINNERS.......so, how much "good works" did they do so that god would SAVE THEM or you, or me, or any of us? = ZERO

as all we have to offer God.... is :

A.) A lifetime of SIN.

Understand?

So, what you are talking about is DISCIPLESHIP:...........That is not Jesus on the Cross dying for you Twistle...

Do you see?

We do our good works AFTER God has given us HIS Salvation.. We dont do it before, and we dont do them to become saved, as we go to the Cross, as SINNERS..

See it?

There are no WORKS we can offer God.. All we have is a lifetime of SINNING to offer God, and He FORGIVES IT ALL.. with the Blood and Death of JESUS = THE CROSS......that is the PURPOSE OF JESUS ON IT.

See it?

THEN
THEN..

AFTER God has saved us, and forgiven us......we THEN "present our bodies as a living sacrifice".... = We then do those Works for God......but not to be saved, or to stay saved......but because WE ARE Saved..


See it?
Ya I see it but what I'm saying is one Truly filled with grace when there is no good works
We r told to test the Spirit
When one is filled we r just drawn to help those who r sent in our path wether its a kind word or feeding or whatever
Many claim grace grace n use that reason to preserve the name of the Messiah
Can on claim I can rape children cause I'm saved by grace?

I've seen much in my life

Twistie
 
Salvation, ... This is God offering Christ on the Cross to SINNERS.............SINNERS.......so, how much "good works" did they do so that god would SAVE THEM or you, or me, or any of us? = ZERO

as all we have to offer God.... is :

A.) A lifetime of SIN.

Understand?

So, what you are talking about is DISCIPLESHIP:...........That is not Jesus on the Cross dying for you Twistle...

Do you see?

We do our good works AFTER God has given us HIS Salvation.. We dont do it before, and we dont do them to become saved, as we go to the Cross, as SINNERS..

See it?

There are no WORKS we can offer God.. All we have is a lifetime of SINNING to offer God, and He FORGIVES IT ALL.. with the Blood and Death of JESUS = THE CROSS......that is the PURPOSE OF JESUS ON IT.

See it?

THEN
THEN..

AFTER God has saved us, and forgiven us......we THEN "present our bodies as a living sacrifice".... = We then do those Works for God......but not to be saved, or to stay saved......but because WE ARE Saved..


See it?
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Yeshua Christ

One can claim grace all they want but if Good is not in them then they can do no good for a good tree can not bare bad fruit it's all written

Even the preacher who is raping his daughter cries grace
 
Ya I see it but what I'm saying is one Truly filled with grace when there is no good works
We r told to test the Spirit
When one is filled we r just drawn to help those who r sent in our path wether its a kind word or feeding or whatever
Many claim grace grace n use that reason to preserve the name of the Messiah
Can on claim I can rape children cause I'm saved by grace?

I've seen much in my life

Twistie

Did you know that christian forums are filled with devil deceived people who pretend to be real christians?
You didn't really believe that the DEVIL would leave christian forums alone did you?
Reader, his deceived started some of them, and He has Mods moderating quite a few of them.
Reader, the devil is well invested in Denominations, and Christian Forums and Fake bibles.
Believe it.
So, here is the thing......The people that the devil has deceived, some of them are saved, but most of them are RELIGIOUS but LOST.
They try to sound like a Christian, and the play the game of posting bible verses, and they teach what they have been taught by their Cult.

How do you learn to separate the REAL Believers from the unbelievers and the deceived believers?

Well, its easy.

All the deceived believers and all the unbelievers who are religious but lost, have 2 things in common..

1.) They all believe they have to keep themselves saved by self effort. = (Works, enduring, commandments, and water baptism)

2.) and they all believe they can lose their salvation.

So, when you talk to a "christian" so called, ... find out if they are that one.......i just described, and if they are, they are deceived or they are not born again.

-

Jesus shed His blood and died for Sin. To remove them. To redeem the world of their Sin.
For God so loved the WORLD that HE GAVE His Only Begotten for the sin of us all....
Jesus is the "one time ETERNAL sacrifice for SIN".. which makes Jesus the only "way" to Heaven.

John 14:6

"Jesus BECAME SIN" for the WORLD....because GOD made Him to be so.... 2 Corinthians 5:21

So, you have your sin or Jesus has them.

And unless all your sin is FORGIVEN and done away with by JESUS on the Cross, you will not go to heaven, because you will remain separated from God by your sin.
This is why God came down here to DIE as Christ on the Cross for the sin of the world, and did.
= .and the "ministry of Reconciliation" we are to share...

2 Corinthians 5:19. = Is the Gospel of the Grace of God.
 
twistie

Faith without works is dead yet works with out faith is just as deadly

Thats post salvation, and the works are merely evidential of having been saved and not conditions to stay saved. Those whom Christ died for, have once and for all been perfected forever Heb 10:14

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Dont trust in works, but what Christ accomplished by His death.
 
Did you know that christian forums are filled with devil deceived people who pretend to be real christians?
You didn't really believe that the DEVIL would leave christian forums alone did you?
Reader, his deceived started some of them, and He has Mods moderating quite a few of them.
Reader, the devil is well invested in Denominations, and Christian Forums and Fake bibles.
Believe it.
So, here is the thing......The people that the devil has deceived, some of them are saved, but most of them are RELIGIOUS but LOST.
They try to sound like a Christian, and the play the game of posting bible verses, and they teach what they have been taught by their Cult.

How do you learn to separate the REAL Believers from the unbelievers and the deceived believers?

Well, its easy.

All the deceived believers and all the unbelievers who are religious but lost, have 2 things in common..

1.) They all believe they have to keep themselves saved by self effort. = (Works, enduring, commandments, and water baptism)

2.) and they all believe they can lose their salvation.

So, when you talk to a "christian" so called, ... find out if they are that one.......i just described, and if they are, they are deceived or they are not born again.

-

Jesus shed His blood and died for Sin. To remove them. To redeem the world of their Sin.
For God so loved the WORLD that HE GAVE His Only Begotten for the sin of us all....
Jesus is the "one time ETERNAL sacrifice for SIN".. which makes Jesus the only "way" to Heaven.

John 14:6

"Jesus BECAME SIN" for the WORLD....because GOD made Him to be so.... 2 Corinthians 5:21

So, you have your sin or Jesus has them.

And unless all your sin is FORGIVEN and done away with by JESUS on the Cross, you will not go to heaven, because you will remain separated from God by your sin.
This is why God came down here to DIE as Christ on the Cross for the sin of the world, and did.
= .and the "ministry of Reconciliation" we are to share...

2 Corinthians 5:19. = Is the Gospel of the Grace of God.
Most people who claim titles n believe they need to teach are very lost they know not the word for the word is not in them
To go around claiming grace will save n leaving it at that is a half Truth that the devil himself preaches he talks about no repentance no changing ways we got demons that walk among us n most have no discernment the prevert the Grace of the Messiah
Yes its by grace alone we r saved but thinking you can do evil n claim it ok because of grace is a lie from the the devil himself frfr

I'm very well able to discern between the true followers n the deceived most of the deceived gather at them temples they got all over throwing money to they preachers to get the grace of the Holy one yet do not go out help the fatherless could careless about the widows careless about 5he drug addicts dealers n the hookers they will kick the homeless while they r down n try to preach to them instead of feeding them both physical n spiritually
They will do what makes them feel good instead of walking in Him

Like I said I've seen much I've lived in quite a few states while I was out there wondering around

I know drug dealers that have more kindness in their pinky the many that claim Christ

It's very sad n disheartening when one wants to preach grace with out a change of ways in Life n that widens their road
As it is written woe unto those that widen the path of the blind to walk further into darkness

This whole thing is sad what mam has done to such a gracious gift that was given so freely

Twistie
 
How to tell if someone is a false teacher?

Jude 1:3; Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.
Jude 1:4; For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Do they use grace as a license to sin? ( and thereby deny Jesus )

Jude 1:10; But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
Jude 1:11; Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.
Jude 1:12; These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted;
Jude 1:13; wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever.
Jude 1:14; It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones,
Jude 1:15; to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

Jude 1:17; But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Jude 1:18; that they were saying to you, "In the last time there will be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts."
Jude 1:19; These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit.
Jude 1:20; But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,
Jude 1:21; keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.

Are they telling you it's OK to be "following after their own ungodly lusts". (God doesnt care about sin)
It says here keep "yourselves" in the love in God, how do we do that?

John 14:21; "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."
John 15:10; "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

What did even Paul say about this?

1Cor 7:19; Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

Again how to spot these people...

2Pet 2:1; But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
2Pet 2:2; Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;
2Pet 2:3; and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
2Pet 2:4; For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;
2Pet 2:5; and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2Pet 2:6; and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;

Are they teaching you it's OK to "follow their sensuality" (again, God is ok with sin according to them)

2Pet 2:9; then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,
2Pet 2:10; and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties,

Are they teaching it's OK to "indulge in the flesh in it's corrupt desires".

2Pet 2:12; But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed,
2Pet 2:13; suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong. They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, as they carouse with you,
2Pet 2:14; having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children;
2Pet 2:15; forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

Are they teaching you God is OK if you "never cease from sin".

2Pet 2:17; These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved.
2Pet 2:18; For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error,
2Pet 2:19; promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.

Are they promising you "freedom" while they themselves are still slaves of corruption? If so, if this is what they teach. They are a false teacher and false prophet.

2Tim 4:3; For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
2Tim 4:4; and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

People want to have their ears tickled. Which do you think people would rather hear? God is OK with however you live and whatever you want to do.
Or God requires obedience. If they're telling God doesn't care how you live, they're a false teacher.

1Jn 2:3; By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1Jn 2:4; The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

1Tim 1:7; wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.
 
How to tell if someone is a false teacher?

Jude 1:3; Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.
Jude 1:4; For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Do they use grace as a license to sin? ( and thereby deny Jesus )

Jude 1:10; But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
Jude 1:11; Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.
Jude 1:12; These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted;
Jude 1:13; wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever.
Jude 1:14; It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones,
Jude 1:15; to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

Jude 1:17; But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Jude 1:18; that they were saying to you, "In the last time there will be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts."
Jude 1:19; These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit.
Jude 1:20; But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,
Jude 1:21; keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.

Are they telling you it's OK to be "following after their own ungodly lusts". (God doesnt care about sin)
It says here keep "yourselves" in the love in God, how do we do that?

John 14:21; "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."
John 15:10; "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

What did even Paul say about this?

1Cor 7:19; Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

Again how to spot these people...

2Pet 2:1; But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
2Pet 2:2; Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;
2Pet 2:3; and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
2Pet 2:4; For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;
2Pet 2:5; and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2Pet 2:6; and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;

Are they teaching you it's OK to "follow their sensuality" (again, God is ok with sin according to them)

2Pet 2:9; then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,
2Pet 2:10; and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties,

Are they teaching it's OK to "indulge in the flesh in it's corrupt desires".

2Pet 2:12; But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed,
2Pet 2:13; suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong. They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, as they carouse with you,
2Pet 2:14; having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children;
2Pet 2:15; forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

Are they teaching you God is OK if you "never cease from sin".

2Pet 2:17; These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved.
2Pet 2:18; For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error,
2Pet 2:19; promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.

Are they promising you "freedom" while they themselves are still slaves of corruption? If so, if this is what they teach. They are a false teacher and false prophet.

2Tim 4:3; For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
2Tim 4:4; and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

People want to have their ears tickled. Which do you think people would rather hear? God is OK with however you live and whatever you want to do.
Or God requires obedience. If they're telling God doesn't care how you live, they're a false teacher.

1Jn 2:3; By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1Jn 2:4; The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

1Tim 1:7; wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.
If one has discernment its very easy to tell they Love preaching in their temples they go out not to the lost they grab up the fatherless n widows money claiming YH will take care of them
Does your preacher stay n speak in one place? Does your preacher know all the names of his congregation names has he been to the hospital to visit whilst you were sick has he helped you with food n bills when a job was lost?
A false teacher is real quick to feed himself n his
Twistie
 
Where are you in the world did you get saved because you wanted or because you asked for it ? Can we be saved because Jesus wanted it or becuase you were destined tell you own testimony how you are saved ? Tell us how you were saved and what you wanted was by your will or by God's will. Because you can't be saved by your own efforts only by God's who put you in your life ?

Your post and many others come close to making me cringe. I really do wish Christians would better explain salvation and not leave the reader always thinking God cherry picks people for heaven.

We have to be so careful in espousing a Calvinistic type salvation. Whilst saving is God's doing, there is definitely a part we play.

IE, There is absolutely ''NO'' saving unless we open the door to Jesus.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

We do this by doing the one thing Jesus came to tell us to do:

Luke 5:32 “I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance''.
Psalm 51:17
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.
 
Did you know that christian forums are filled with devil deceived people who pretend to be real christians?
You didn't really believe that the DEVIL would leave christian forums alone did you?
Reader, his deceived started some of them, and He has Mods moderating quite a few of them.
Reader, the devil is well invested in Denominations, and Christian Forums and Fake bibles.
Believe it.
So, here is the thing......The people that the devil has deceived, some of them are saved, but most of them are RELIGIOUS but LOST.
They try to sound like a Christian, and the play the game of posting bible verses, and they teach what they have been taught by their Cult.

How do you learn to separate the REAL Believers from the unbelievers and the deceived believers?

Well, its easy.

All the deceived believers and all the unbelievers who are religious but lost, have 2 things in common..

1.) They all believe they have to keep themselves saved by self effort. = (Works, enduring, commandments, and water baptism)

2.) and they all believe they can lose their salvation.

So, when you talk to a "christian" so called, ... find out if they are that one.......i just described, and if they are, they are deceived or they are not born again.

-

Jesus shed His blood and died for Sin. To remove them. To redeem the world of their Sin.
For God so loved the WORLD that HE GAVE His Only Begotten for the sin of us all....
Jesus is the "one time ETERNAL sacrifice for SIN".. which makes Jesus the only "way" to Heaven.

John 14:6

"Jesus BECAME SIN" for the WORLD....because GOD made Him to be so.... 2 Corinthians 5:21

So, you have your sin or Jesus has them.

And unless all your sin is FORGIVEN and done away with by JESUS on the Cross, you will not go to heaven, because you will remain separated from God by your sin.
This is why God came down here to DIE as Christ on the Cross for the sin of the world, and did.
= .and the "ministry of Reconciliation" we are to share...

2 Corinthians 5:19. = Is the Gospel of the Grace of God.

Whilst I agree that we can't keep ourselves saved, I think its harsh to imply all who don't believe this are false teachers.

There are many scriptures from Paul alluding to losing salvation. Many can be forgiven for reading his scriptures 'as is' with no context.

OSAS is true from God's perspective. He does not make mistakes. But we do. Thus Paul was constantly urging us to examine ourselves. We have to be very careful to not teach complacency.

1 Cor 10:12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall!
 
Where are you in the world did you get saved because you wanted or because you asked for it ? Can we be saved because Jesus wanted it or becuase you were destined tell you own testimony how you are saved ? Tell us how you were saved and what you wanted was by your will or by God's will. Because you can't be saved by your own efforts only by God's who put you in your life ?

Hello @emanuel88:

I heard the word of God preached, and came under conviction of sin, received the Lord Jesus Christ as my Saviour, and was thereby born from above.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
Amen

1 John 2:3

And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.

So it seems to me the proof of receiving grace is that we want to keep his commandments, they are not a burden to keep.

When we receive the grace of God we should see changes in our lifestyle.

Acts 5:32

And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”
l
it sounds like we have to obey in order to receive the Holy Spirit.

Romans 6:16

Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

It seems to me the proof of Grace is in who you are being obedient to,, sin or righteousness.
'Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said,
"We ought to obey God rather than men.
The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Him hath God exalted with His right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour,
for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
And we are His witnesses of these things;
and so is also the Holy Ghost, Whom God hath given to them that obey Him."

When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them.'
(Act 5:29-33)

Hello @Dave M,

My mind goes to (John 6:28-29) in relation to your words (quote):- 'it sounds like we have to obey in order to receive the Holy Spirit.'

'Then said they unto Him,
What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them,
This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent.'

* I believe that this is the Obedience of faith that is required of us:- To believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

* Yet those who are reckoned by God to have died with Christ, have also been buried, quickened and raised with Him, and now walk 'in newness of life' before the Father. That is the work of God, in Christ isn't it? (Romans 6:4)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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