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Are Miracless Obsolete?

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Member
Why aren't we seeing or experiencing miracles today like those of Jesus, Paul, Peter etc?

I have a friend that has a mobile impairment from birth.


She recounted a tale to me, that on this particular day
at her church, they tried for her to walk, with prayers of faith, or so I thought.

So two persons on both her sides, eased her out of her wheelchair , and commanded her to walk.

But it didn't happen, and she told me that they said , she had little faith.

She didn't even want to go back to church.


Now gentle people, tell me what you think.

Are miracles really obsolete?

Why aren't there any modern day Paul and Peter?

Are there any?
 
Active
@Lovely

I don't believe there are any modern day Paul or Peter or any like those of the 12. I believe their place is unique in the forming of the Church. But I do believe we still have miracles done by God for His people today. And I believe there are those with the gift of healing to be exercised in the local assembly.

My opinion in the story you related is that no one should have tried to make the girl walk. If God would heal her she should be able to get up on her own. And they certainly should not have questioned her faith. As I think I mentioned in another post, God doesn't always heal. But His answer is just as purposeful.

There is an interesting verse in (Josh. 5:11-12). Perhaps I have already mentioned it, I can't remember. If so, repetition is the price of knowledge. God had miraculously fed the children of Israel in the wilderness for forty years with manna from Heaven. Even when they were in rebellion against Him. Even when they were in unbelief. He miraculously fed them. Until they entered the promised land.

So where did they exercise more faith? In the wilderness where the manna was given everyday by God? Or in the land where they no longer had it? I would say after it was taken away. I believe our walk of faith is more real when we don't see miracles every time we call on God for them. The walk of faith in trusting God when nothing around you seems to be from God, is a difficult and great faith.

There are miracles of healing in the Church today. But it is usually not with great fanfare. There is a good book you should obtain. (Surprised By The Power Of The Spirit and Surprised By The Voice Of God, by Jack Deere)

Quantrill
 
Member
Once again, I appreciate your response.

It's encouraging and enloghtening, especially on the line of FAITH that I'm struggling with.

And thanks, for the recommendation of the books, I will see about getting their copies.
 
Active
Why aren't we seeing or experiencing miracles today like those of Jesus, Paul, Peter etc?

I have a friend that has a mobile impairment from birth.

She recounted a tale to me, that on this particular day
at her church, they tried for her to walk, with prayers of faith, or so I thought.

So two persons on both her sides, eased her out of her wheelchair , and commanded her to walk.

But it didn't happen, and she told me that they said , she had little faith.

She didn't even want to go back to church.


Now gentle people, tell me what you think.

Are miracles really obsolete?

Why aren't there any modern day Paul and Peter?

Are there any?
One day when we are sitting and drinking a cup of tea with God in heaven, He will give us all the answers as to why prayers for healing were not answered. We will grasp that it was not from any ill thoughts or actions from Him.

We are witnessing miracles on par with those that Jesus and the disciples performed. It is all about the recording of said miracles. Today they are brushed over. In that day they were written down in scripture.

It can happen that someone close to God be used to effect healing. Based on the reply those two made to your friend, I will bet on them not being close to God.

Christians develop a relationship with the God. The closer we are to God the more we grasp His will in given situations and the more He is inclined to honor our requests. Respect works both ways with God.

Consider how God literally put destroying all those Jews who worshipped the golden calf on pause because of Moses's request. God honored Moses's request. Nobody else would have gained ground with God in a plea deal. Only Moses. Why?

Don't confuse me. Any Christian can pray for healing and expect healing. But only a few can actually know who to pray for and only a few can cause God to 'change His plans' so to speak. But then on the other hand, God can and does bring very trying tests on all the elect. Even more so on the ''Job's and Paul's''.

It is a very interesting discussion, healing and miracles. Paul could be bitten by a snake and not die, pray for healing for someone and watch a miracle being performed as a result of his prayer....then the next day he could be shipwrecked and be at the mercy of a storm....where no prayer seems to help.
 
Member
I hear you.

But it's unfortunate that you made a swipe at those two people who stuck to the subject matter without a stone in hand.
 
Unworthy Servant
Staff Member
Greetings,

I hear you.

But it's unfortunate that you made a swipe at those two people who stuck to the subject matter without a stone in hand.
forgive me please but i do not know if i understand your comment to fellow Member KingJ.
If you are referring to his comments about the two who told the lady it was due to her lack of faith, then i agree with KingJ.
Much damage has been done with such heartless talk. Did they consider that their faith might be lacking to some degree or did they lump it all on the one in need?

I would also like to know what their 'success rate' is. Was she a one-off failure or do they often blame others who don't get up and walk?

We can want to help someone and try to copy one way or another that we read about in the Bible or even see or read what others do but you can be very sure that those who listen to the Lord and do His will, do things right and there is no lack.
I knew a lady who really wanted to love the Lord and she was dealt a similar blow where her faith was in question and the result was that she decided that if that is what christianity was about, blaming and accusing one in need when they were mustering all they could in all the faith they had, then she was not wanting to be part of that.
I have to ask, is that the message we are to tell the world? Is that the way we should treat others?

If ever we go to the doctor would we like the doctor to help us or to simply blame us for lack of being whole and leave us still in need and perhaps somewhat shattered and broken?


Bless you ....><>
 
Member
@Br. Bear

I hope I didn't misunderstood his comment. If so, then I seek his forgiveness.

If you go back to his reply, you'll see where he said , he bets that the two aren't close to God, and I think he maybe referring to Quantrill and you, who replied to my comment previously.

So that's why I said, it's unfortunate that he made such a comment, when neither of you were castiņg stones

But as I said previously, may member King forgive me, if I misread his comment.


As for the question on whether anybody else's faith, was questioned. I don't know, I'm not a member of that church.

Thank you Br. Bear for the opportunity of giving clarity to what may seem confusing .

God bless you.
 
Loyal
@Lovely

Unfortunately, although this is a Christian website. Everyone doesn't always agree on everything. Sometimes things don't matter that much. Sometimes things are a sore subject.

Speaking in tongues and gifts of the Spirit are one of those subjects. As far as miracles, some of us have seen them. People in wheel chairs get up and walk. My wife had stage 4 cancer and now has none.
(No chemo, no radiation). I had a motorcycle accident and broke 33 bones, I was unconscious for 10 days and told I never walk again, now I have a full-time job and the people I work with don't even know I
was in an accident. There are other things as well. I've heard and seen prophecies come true. A son I didn't see or talk to for over 30 years, now we meet for dinner once a month or so.

Some people don't believe in these things, that's fine. But then they wonder why they don't see these things in their life. If you don't believe in it, you won't see it. If you don't have faith a miracle will happen,
...it wont.

For the most part everyone here is agreeable. The moderators and Chad work overtime smoothing squabbles out. They do a good job, really. Much better than other "Christian" sites I have been on.
But even so, things are always ...ummm... perfect. If you hang in there, you'll find those who are here for fellowship, prayer, and even to study the Word. But you'll also find those who want to argue
and debate about everything, just for the sake of argument.

In any case, it's good to have you here. Keep seeking the truth.
 
Unworthy Servant
Staff Member
Greetings B-A-C,

since you are here, and as i was wanting to ask someone who doesn't mind seeing what the Scriptures say, regarding miracles....
I was a pondering about such. We know that in the 'lists' we have available via the writings of the Apostle Paul that Miracles and Healing(s) [and gifts of healings] are different [or are they?] and so what do we classify as a miracle? Jesus walking on water? Calming the storm? Feeding a few thousand with a young one's lunch? Raising the dead?

Reason for my pondering is that sometimes i think we may lump healing into the miracles department and if we do, is that correct? It is all too easy to use the christian-speak and terms we can find ourselves using [because that is what everyone says] but strictly speaking, what do you think of this.
No argument nor reference to your testimony given [for which, let us praise the Lord!] but merely Br. Bear pondering and reaching out to see what others can contribute. [i had been chewing this over before you posted, in fact]


Bless you ....><>

 
Active
But it's unfortunate that you made a swipe at those two people who stuck to the subject matter without a stone in hand.
There was no swipe at them. I said ''what the two said to your friend''. Quantrill and Br Bear are on point in this thread.
 
Active
Greetings B-A-C,

since you are here, and as i was wanting to ask someone who doesn't mind seeing what the Scriptures say, regarding miracles....
I was a pondering about such. We know that in the 'lists' we have available via the writings of the Apostle Paul that Miracles and Healing(s) [and gifts of healings] are different [or are they?] and so what do we classify as a miracle? Jesus walking on water? Calming the storm? Feeding a few thousand with a young one's lunch? Raising the dead?

Reason for my pondering is that sometimes i think we may lump healing into the miracles department and if we do, is that correct?
I don't see a difference between miracles and healings as miracles are defined as 'an extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency'.

I think what you are touching on is the ''welcome event'' part of the definition. A sign and wonder can be an unwelcomed event. Like a plague.
 
Unworthy Servant
Staff Member
Greetings KingJ,

I don't see a difference between miracles and healings as miracles are defined as 'an extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency'.

I think what you are touching on is the ''welcome event'' part of the definition. A sign and wonder can be an unwelcomed event. Like a plague.
Thank you, but if i may post this rather long list of that word, 'miracles', you might better understand where i was coming from?
On consideration of this you may agree that Miracles and healings are not the same, after all?
The world's definitions are not always in line with the Word.


Bless you ....><>
--------------------------
Englishman's Concordance

δυνάμεις (dynameis) — 20 Occurrences
Matthew 7:22 N-AFP
GRK: σῷ ὀνόματι δυνάμεις πολλὰς ἐποιήσαμεν
NAS: perform many miracles?'
KJV: done many wonderful works?
INT: your name works of power many perform

Matthew 11:20 N-NFP
GRK: αἱ πλεῖσται δυνάμεις αὐτοῦ ὅτι
NAS: most of His miracles were done,
KJV: of his mighty works were done,
INT: the most miracles of him because

Matthew 11:21 N-NFP
GRK: ἐγένοντο αἱ δυνάμεις αἱ γενόμεναι
NAS: For if the miracles had occurred
KJV: if the mighty works, which
INT: had taken place the miracles which having taken place

Matthew 11:23 N-NFP
GRK: ἐγενήθησαν αἱ δυνάμεις αἱ γενόμεναι
NAS: for if the miracles had occurred
KJV: if the mighty works, which
INT: had taken place the miracles which having taken place

Matthew 13:54 N-NFP
GRK: καὶ αἱ δυνάμεις
NAS: wisdom and [these] miraculous powers?
KJV: wisdom, and [these] mighty works?
INT: and the miracles

Matthew 13:58 N-AFP
GRK: ἐποίησεν ἐκεῖ δυνάμεις πολλὰς διὰ
NAS: many miracles there
KJV: not many mighty works there because
INT: he did there works of power many because

Matthew 14:2 N-NFP
GRK: τοῦτο αἱ δυνάμεις ἐνεργοῦσιν ἐν
NAS: and that is why miraculous powers are at work
KJV: therefore mighty works do shew forth themselves
INT: this the miraculous powers work in

Matthew 24:29 N-NFP
GRK: καὶ αἱ δυνάμεις τῶν οὐρανῶν
NAS: from the sky, and the powers of the heavens
KJV: and the powers of the heavens
INT: and the powers of the heavens

Mark 6:2 N-NFP
GRK: καὶ αἱ δυνάμεις τοιαῦται διὰ
NAS: to Him, and such miracles as these
KJV: even such mighty works are wrought by
INT: even the works of power such by

Mark 6:14 N-NFP
GRK: ἐνεργοῦσιν αἱ δυνάμεις ἐν αὐτῷ
NAS: these miraculous powers are at work
KJV: therefore mighty works do shew forth themselves
INT: operate the miraculous powers in him

Mark 13:25 N-NFP
GRK: καὶ αἱ δυνάμεις αἱ ἐν
NAS: from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens
KJV: and the powers that are in
INT: and the powers which [are] in

Luke 10:13 N-NFP
GRK: ἐγενήθησαν αἱ δυνάμεις αἱ γενόμεναι
NAS: For if the miracles had been performed
KJV: if the mighty works had been done
INT: had taken place the miracles which have been taking place

Luke 21:26 N-NFP
GRK: αἱ γὰρ δυνάμεις τῶν οὐρανῶν
NAS: upon the world; for the powers of the heavens
KJV: for the powers of heaven
INT: indeed [the] powers of the heavens

Acts 8:13 N-AFP
GRK: σημεῖα καὶ δυνάμεις μεγάλας γινομένας
NAS: and great miracles taking place,
KJV: beholding the miracles and
INT: signs and works of power great being done

Acts 19:11 N-AFP
GRK: Δυνάμεις τε οὐ
NAS: extraordinary miracles by the hands
KJV: wrought special miracles by the hands
INT: miracles moreover not

Romans 8:38 N-NFP
GRK: μέλλοντα οὔτε δυνάμεις
NAS: things to come, nor powers,
KJV: nor powers, nor
INT: things to be nor powers

1 Corinthians 12:28 N-AFP
GRK: διδασκάλους ἔπειτα δυνάμεις ἔπειτα χαρίσματα
NAS: teachers, then miracles, then gifts
KJV: after that miracles, then
INT: teachers then miracles then gifts

1 Corinthians 12:29 N-NFP
GRK: μὴ πάντες δυνάμεις
NAS: are they? All are not [workers of] miracles, are they?
KJV: [are] all workers of miracles?
INT: not [have] all miracles

Galatians 3:5 N-AFP
GRK: καὶ ἐνεργῶν δυνάμεις ἐν ὑμῖν
NAS: and works miracles among
KJV: and worketh miracles among you,
INT: and works miracles among you

Hebrews 6:5 N-AFP
GRK: θεοῦ ῥῆμα δυνάμεις τε μέλλοντος
NAS: of God and the powers of the age
KJV: and the powers of the world
INT: of God's word [the] power moreover of [the] to come

from: Greek Concordance: δυνάμεις (dynameis) -- 20 Occurrences

-----------------
Englishman's Concordance

δυνάμεων (dynameōn) — 3 Occurrences
Luke 19:37 N-GFP
GRK: ὧν εἶδον δυνάμεων
NAS: for all the miracles which
KJV: all the mighty works that
INT: which they had seen [the] works of power

1 Corinthians 12:10 N-GFP
GRK: δὲ ἐνεργήματα δυνάμεων ἄλλῳ δὲ
NAS: the effecting of miracles, and to another
KJV: the working of miracles;
INT: moreover working of miracles to another moreover

1 Peter 3:22 N-GFP
GRK: ἐξουσιῶν καὶ δυνάμεων
NAS: and authorities and powers had been subjected
KJV: and powers being made subject
INT: authorities and powers

from: Greek Concordance: δυνάμεων (dynameōn) -- 3 Occurrences

[note: there are other uses of the word but the above are only two of them]
 
Loyal
Some people have mentioned signs and wonders with "the twelve". Which twelve? Do we count Judas? Paul, Matthias, and Barnabas are all also called apostles.

Regardless of all that, there were some who were not ever called apostles who did miracles.

Acts 6:8; And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people.

We also have the (70) or seventy two depending on your Bible.

Luke 10:17; The seventy returned with joy, saying, "Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name." (they are called disciples, but not apostles)

If we look at the "great commission" (which is really the ONLY commission) from Jesus, part of it is in Mark, and part of it is in Matthew...

Mark 16:15; And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
Mark 16:16; "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
Mark 16:17; "These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues;
Mark 16:18; they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

Matt 28:18; And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
Matt 28:19; "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
Matt 28:20; teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

If disciples can do these things, and Jesus them to go out and make disciples in all nations, it only stands to reason, there were many disciples all over the place.
There are several other people in the Bible (not just the apostles) who are called disciples, not to mention the 70 above.

As far as Acts 2 being the standard for how people have to speak in tongues, Acts has 4 other places where people were baptized in the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues.
None of the other scriptures are exactly like the description in the upper room.

There is also a lot more I could say here about miracles (even some that don't involve "healing") but I am out of time this morning.

I am familiar with "cessation" teaching. They say the gifts have "ceased". But where does it say this in the Bible?
If the gifts of the Spirit have ceased, has the fruit of the Spirit also ceased? Has the Holy Spirit Himself ceased? If He doesn't help us and empower us anymore, what purpose does He serve?
 
Member
There was no swipe at them. I said ''what the two said to your friend''. Quantrill and Br Bear are on point in this thread.

OK King. Noted, and I'm really sorry about the misquote.

I guess, I glossed over the comment, and came to an conclusion.
 
Member
@Lovely

Unfortunately, although this is a Christian website. Everyone doesn't always agree on everything. Sometimes things don't matter that much. Sometimes things are a sore subject.

Speaking in tongues and gifts of the Spirit are one of those subjects. As far as miracles, some of us have seen them. People in wheel chairs get up and walk. My wife had stage 4 cancer and now has none.
(No chemo, no radiation). I had a motorcycle accident and broke 33 bones, I was unconscious for 10 days and told I never walk again, now I have a full-time job and the people I work with don't even know I
was in an accident. There are other things as well. I've heard and seen prophecies come true. A son I didn't see or talk to for over 30 years, now we meet for dinner once a month or so.

Some people don't believe in these things, that's fine. But then they wonder why they don't see these things in their life. If you don't believe in it, you won't see it. If you don't have faith a miracle will happen,
...it wont.

For the most part everyone here is agreeable. The moderators and Chad work overtime smoothing squabbles out. They do a good job, really. Much better than other "Christian" sites I have been on.
But even so, things are always ...ummm... perfect. If you hang in there, you'll find those who are here for fellowship, prayer, and even to study the Word. But you'll also find those who want to argue
and debate about everything, just for the sake of argument.

In any case, it's good to have you here. Keep seeking the truth.

Thank you B- A-C, for your way welcome.

The topic on miracles is special to me.

I'm a physically challenged individual, who's seeking a mirackle, that's why I brought the subject up.
 
Active
The topic on miracles is special to me.
I'm a physically challenged individual, who's seeking a miracle, that's why I brought the subject up.
If you love Jesus and daily repent of your sins, the disability is God's will.

As a Christian we are on earth for two reasons. 1. Reach the unsaved, 2. Grow closer to God

We often forget and overlook the second. But God does not. He wants to try us. Get for us the maximum reward in heaven. This time on earth is short. He will make the most of it.
 
Loyal
If you love Jesus and daily repent of your sins, the disability is God's will.
So God tempts us with disabilities?

If we repent daily then we have to accept bad as good cause its Gods Will?

Man with a God like that who needs enemies?

No Friend we have an enemy who fights against us in everything and repenting does not constitute a victory or not.
We must learn how to properly FIGHT against the Wiles of the devil and STAND until we get the victory.

Miracles have not stopped but sometimes its not us waiting on a miracle but rather God waiting on us to do what He has told us to do in His Word.

Now I know KJ, you will not agree. :wink:
Blessings
 
Active
So God tempts us with disabilities?

If we repent daily then we have to accept bad as good cause its Gods Will?

Man with a God like that who needs enemies?

No Friend we have an enemy who fights against us in everything and repenting does not constitute a victory or not.
We must learn how to properly FIGHT against the Wiles of the devil and STAND until we get the victory.

Miracles have not stopped but sometimes its not us waiting on a miracle but rather God waiting on us to do what He has told us to do in His Word.

Now I know KJ, you will not agree. :wink:
Blessings
Hi Jim, long time.

We have two very different views on this. I read scripture on this topic in light of 1 Thess 5:18 Be thankful in all circumstances, for this is God’s will for you who belong to Christ Jesus.

I know the stance you take. You come with a ''we are more then conquerors'' Rom 8:31-39 approach to the topic.

Neither of us are actually wrong. There is truth to both positions.

Just with regards to me believing God tempts us. God does not tempt us. He tests us. Tempt is to make you fall. To destroy you. Test is to see the point you will fall and stop just before it.
 
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