Another chat on hell XD

[KingJ]

@B-A-C Created new thread to discuss your post below.

I agree He is good. No argument at all there. Totally agree with these verses 100%. I don't know what else I can say to let you know
I agree that God is good. God is good. You win... I agree.

You say that but then proceed to teach that He is not by isolating the scriptures below without their context.

OK, that covers those verses. We are in agreement.

Rev 14:9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Matt 25:45 "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
Matt 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Mark 9:43 "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,
Mark 9:44 [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.]
Mark 9:45 "If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell,
Mark 9:46 [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.]
Mark 9:47 "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell,

2Thes 1:6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
2Thes 1:7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,
2Thes 1:8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
2Thes 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Jude 1:6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
Jude 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

Do you agree with these verses? If you don't... then who is misrepresenting God?

Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
Heb 10:28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
Heb 10:29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
Heb 10:31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

BAC, you really do need to try and understand that God is only good. He has chosen to surround Himself with a cloud of witnesses. Every single action that He performs has billions of eyes on it.

Try take a step back and look at these scriptures in more context. There are many scriptures you seem to ignore. We have had this discussion so many times and I have yet to see you add Luke 13:28 and Luke 16:19-31 to your selection.

Luke 13:28 is the only passage in the entirety of scripture that gives a reason for why people will weep and gnash their teeth. It speaks only of a separation anxiety.

Luke 16:19-31 The rich man and Lazarus is the only passage of scripture in the entire bible that details what kind of suffering a spirit endures in the fires of hell. It speaks of an agonising fire and the rich man asking Abraham to dip his finger in a cup of water and put a drop of water on his tongue.

You paint a picture of God ''HATING'' the wicked and ''TORTURING'' them for all eternity. That is not a correct picture.

We have a few key scriptures where Jesus engages with ''demons, sold out to evil'' in a kind, loving and caring manner.

--------------------------

Imagine a parent who taught their children that the A-Z of life on earth according to scripture was (per Gen 3):

1. Woman will be slaves to men as God made them weaker than men.
2. Men will work and sweat all day as many weeds will grow and survival will be harsh
3. Woman will have terrible pain in childbirth.
4. Everyday you will get older, weaker and sicker until you fall over and die.

Whilst these are true and factual. It would be extremely naive and or evil to teach that that is the A-Z of life on earth. All that God does is good Psalm 145:17. We can expect a hell to be the nicest possible hell. That however, is still not saying much as I do concede to the fact that you cannot really do much for unrepentant sinners that hate you and will never desire true repentance of sin.

I want to propose that we all stop misrepresenting God. Just because a few scriptures appear to incriminate Him as evil, does not mean He is evil.

God is good psalm 136:1, righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17 and He is most certainly not 'good' because He is 'God'. He has surrounded Himself with a cloud of witnesses and given them the ability to judge all he does to those on earth and in hell. Let's expect the best of Him and stop misrepresenting Him!!!!

 

[B-A-C]

You say that but then proceed to teach that He is not by isolating the scriptures below without their context.

This is where we always diverge. Either the Bible is true. Or it isn't.
Either these verses are true, are they aren't.

Rev 14:9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Matt 25:45 "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
Matt 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Mark 9:43 "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,
Mark 9:44 [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.]
Mark 9:45 "If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell,
Mark 9:46 [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.]
Mark 9:47 "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell,

2Thes 1:6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
2Thes 1:7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,
2Thes 1:8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
2Thes 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Jude 1:6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
Jude 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

Do you agree with these verses? If you don't... then who is misrepresenting God?

Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
Heb 10:28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
Heb 10:29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
Heb 10:31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

We have a few choice here.

We can take the verses that say God is good... and toss out all the verses about People burning in hell forever... because we don't like those verses. (This appears to be your solution)

We can take the verses that say People will be tormented in The Lake of Fire, and toss out the verses that say God is good... because we don't like those verses. (This is what I feel like you are accusing me of). You say I am "cherry picking" and taking them out of context.
OK.. then... what is the context of these verses. What do they mean to you? You accuse me of ignoring your questions, but you never answer that question.

Or.. we can reconcile all of the verses. Yes God is good. But people will still be tormented forever. That is my actual position on it.

A nice parent.. lets their child do whatever they want with no consequences. (I've met some of those parents)
A nice judge... lets people do whatever they want with no consequences. (I've heard about these judges in the media)
A nice sheriff... lets criminals do whatever they want.
A "nice" God... lets people do whatever they want with no consequences.

A good parent will discipline their child when they need to.
A good judge will put criminals in jail or prison as the case may be.
A good God will put some people in the Lake of Fire forever.

You seem to be confusing good with nice.

 

[Gothedral]

Sigh, what's going on here? [Context: theme of the week]

Saint Mark, chapter 10...

17 And when He was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, "Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

18 And Jesus said unto him, "Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother."

20 And he answered and said unto him, "Master, all these have I observed from my youth."

21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, "One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in eaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me."

22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, "How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!"

 

[B-A-C]

there is none good but one, that is, God.

We both agree that God is good. We seem to disagree on whether people will go to hell and the Lake of fire.

This is an old debate. @KingJ and I have been "discussing" this for about a decade now.

It's not really a heated discussion, just a disagreement.

 

[B-A-C]

Is Jesus good? Is Jesus God?

1. Matthew 24:50-51
   
   

   “...the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him... and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

2. Matthew 25:30
   
   

   “Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

3. Luke 12:5
   
   

   “But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!”

1. Matthew 23:27-28
   
   

   “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs... outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.”

2. John 2:15
   
   

   “And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple... and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.”

1. Matthew 10:34-36
   
   

   “Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.”

2. Luke 12:49
   
   

   “I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled!”

• Matthew 22:13 (NASB95)
  “Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Revelation 19:11, 15 (NASB95)​

“And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war.”

“From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.”

 

[Gothedral]

Ah, I can see from the scripture choices where a disagreement stems from: the absolute context of whom is speaking to whom.

The tired argument of the "sword/peace" versus "peace/sword" verses, for example, clearly show who is damned and who follows The Way.

Carry your crosses and carry on, then Lol. ️

 

[KingJ]

This is where we always diverge. Either the Bible is true. Or it isn't.
Either these verses are true, are they aren't.

It is not that the scriptures you are quoting are incorrect, it is simply that by isolating them, your are not wielding the word of God with skill.

A Christian has 'one' job and that is to properly represent God to the lost that He loves and died for. We are His ambassadors 2 Cor 5:20.

Example:

Let's say you like my sister. Now I knew that you were a very kind, caring, giving individual. You earn a good salary as you are a hard worker. You donate 70% of it to charity so you seldom have money for yourself. You help out a lot at the orphanage, especially with maintenance of the pig stye.

My sister asks me about you. I tell her that you never have money and often smell like a pig. Is that a correct or incorrect representation of you? It is factual, but is it true?

-----------------

Please, let's not 'fail' at our 'one' job.

2 Cor 5:20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.

 

[KingJ]

Mark 9:43 "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,
Mark 9:44 [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.]
Mark 9:45 "If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell,
Mark 9:46 [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.]
Mark 9:47 "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell,

I find the 'worms in hell' theory fascinating. It is a terrible reading blunder that many are not aware of. Quite a big topic for discussion.

There are four matters that you need to consider.

1. The worm is personal.

Note the 'their worm'' in the caps lines you quote. Many scholars believe it will be something like your conscience. A conscience eats at you like a worm.

2. Mark 9 is a reference to Isa 66 and Isa 66 is clearly a millennium setting.

Isa 66:23-24 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

A. Note the underlined. All flesh will come to worship before the Lord. Flesh is not a resurrected body 2 Cor 5:3. It is those that will live, in flesh, in the millennium. When saints die, they lose their 'flesh'. Dust to dust Gen 3:19.

B. They look at actual carcases of people. There will be a mountain of carcasses of evil people who pulled the middle finger to God after all His plagues hit during the tribulation. They will all die in the battle of armaggeddon and us saints that reign with Jesus and those God chooses to live on in the millennium will pile them up in one location. It will be a tourist attraction.

C. The manner in which the text is written is a little 'random'. Note this, note that. As opposed to a specific focus on a topic as we see from Jesus in Luke 16:19-31. As such, many draw a line after vs 22 and before vs 23 in Isa 66. Read it, you will see it is not illogical to do so.

D. If we apply the 'their worm' to actual carcasses, then the context seems logical that it be their rotting carcasses.

3. Worms eating flesh of those in hell is illogical.

Worms eat rotting flesh. Fact. Mankind is flesh, spirit and mind 1 Thess 5:23. Flesh can rot, but that will die off. Dust to dust! Gen 3:19. Then, the spirit, is not to be confused with a resurrected body. Only saints receive a resurrected body 2 Cor 5:3. The spirit is exactly that, a spirit. There is no such thing as a spirit rotting. A spirit will live on just fine for all eternity. It will never rot and die.

4. Worms eating people who are alive is pure torture.

Torture is evil. God is not evil. He is good Psalm 136:1 and righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17.

Psalm 136:1 Give thanks to the Lord, for he is good. His love endures forever.

Psalm 145:17 The Lord is righteous in all his ways and kind in all his works.

Thread 'Discussion on Torture'

Aug 22, 2023

Hi all. I think a discussion on torture will shed a lot of much needed light on controversial scripture that many use to incriminate God.

I want to make the argument that a good person cannot torture. Only the evil torture. The moment someone is guilty of torture, they are guilty of being evil.

Let's first 1. properly define torture, then 2. consider the reality of it and then 3. look at what history teaches us.

1. Defining torture:

Torture can be slowly pulling a persons limbs apart or it can be a teacher with an annoying voice. There are degrees.

For the purposes...

• KingJ
• Replies: 13
• Forum: Bible Study

 

[Garee]

This is where we always diverge. Either the Bible is true. Or it isn't.
Either these verses are true, are they aren't.

Rev 14:9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

The key to understanding the parable is the word "mark "used 9 times in Revelation. And not the evil word "sign" used 2 times in Revelation.

Like a literal tattoo on their literal forehead of hand which are metaphors used to represent the will of dying mankind which many have turned it into a evil sign and not mark or will.

No signs were given believers have prophecy till the end of time.

The foundation of the word mark is found in Genesis not Revelation.

The mark his word. . . what he says what he says (let there be) comes to pass (and it was good)

Genisis 4:15;And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

 

[KingJ]

We have a few choice here.

We can take the verses that say God is good... and toss out all the verses about People burning in hell forever... because we don't like those verses. (This appears to be your solution)

Punishing the wicked is a good thing.

We can take the verses that say People will be tormented in The Lake of Fire, and toss out the verses that say God is good... because we don't like those verses. (This is what I feel like you are accusing me of). You say I am "cherry picking" and taking them out of context.

No no no. I accuse you of misrepresentation. See my example provided in post # 7.

Example. Atheists will bash God, teach that He is evil as He KILLED so MANY with a cruel DROWNING. Even little children.

Flood happened. Drowning happened. Cute children died. Does a Christian teach the drowning as the A-Z of the topic? IE Serve God, do what is right, else God will mercilessly, inhumanly KILL you?

There is a lot to consider on the flood.

1. It is estimated that it took 50-120 years to build the arc. That means the 'wicked' had 50-120 years to repent of their sins and make right.
2. Drowning is a quick death. Many worse ways to go out.
3. All children go straight to heaven.

These points are crucial. It points to God being good. Any good person on this planet would do similar and approve of what God did. Approve of how He handled the situation before Him.

The same will apply to hell!

Meditate on Psalm 145:17, He is righteous in ALL His ways.

 

[KingJ]

OK.. then... what is the context of these verses. What do they mean to you? You accuse me of ignoring your questions, but you never answer that question.

I have explained worms to you. There are no worms.

I have explained fire to you. Well Jesus did in Luke 16:19-31. Bolding the words 'FIRE, BRIMSTONE, WEEPING, GNSAHING OF TEETH and NO REST DAY OR NIGHT' do not change the very clear depiction drawn for us by Jesus in this passage.

Most Christians are influenced by the devil to push a narrative of God being evil as hell will be torturous. Nobody wants to serve an evil God. We reduce Him to our level like the demigods in Greek mythology. Atheists sleep better at night knowing that if our God is real, they are good to not care about Him as He is evil.

There is simply no way to defend God as good if there is torture in hell. Now when you pick only those scriptures that mention, FIRE, BRIMSTONE, NO REST, WORMS, ETERNITY, PUNSIHMENT, WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH'' you are like a doctor throwing medicine into a patients face. Completely and utterly misrepresenting God on what is clearly a very sensitive topic. A topic a Christian needs to put effort into properly communicating. A topic a Christian can so easily fail on.

---------------------------------------------------------------

The truth in hell is a combination of the following. I see four clear truths about hell. Much like God gave Adam and Eve four truths about earth when they were removed from the garden.

1. Separation.

You cannot have repentant sinners with unrepentant sinners. Even today we separate criminals into prisons.

Separation anxiety causes people to weep and gnash their teeth.

Luke 13:28 There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.

2. Darkness

When you place unrepentant sinners together you have a place that is a metaphorical darkness. It is not pleasant to live next to an unrepentant thief or rapist. Everyday is a type of torment.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

3. Punishment by fire

Whilst 1 and 2 are certainly a type of punishment, they are not a punishment specific to a crime committed. From the scriptures you quoted, it is crystal clear that God's chosen form of delivering punishment for sins is fire.

Now, I repeat, the only passage in the entirety of scripture that gives a clear depiction of the exact type of suffering that one will experience in fire is from the words of Jesus in Luke 16:19-31.

We all know how terrible fire can be. In the OT it was the worst type of capital punishment. Today we have people prolonging your suffering by placing a tyre around you. We have Dante's inferno speaking of lava. It is so easy to incriminate God as evil with fire as it is so easy to assume it is a form of torture. Most Christians paint a picture akin to a brazen bull. The most evil people in all of human history would torture. I cannot believe someone can claim to know God and teach that He would likewise torture. Place God atop a list of the most evil beings to ever live. It makes me so sick to read Christians misrepresent God on this. God is good, the definition of love and if you do not know this, you do not know Him 1 John 4:8.

Now some key facts to note on Luke 16:19-31:

A. The rich man calls it an agonizing fire. So it is certainly not pleasant.
B. He is able to hold a thoughtful and lengthy conversation with Abraham. So clearly not akin to a brazen bull or being burnt at the stake.
C. He is not mad at God or Abraham. He is not screaming at either. Clearly he knows he deserves to be there and more importantly, he knows that the punishment is just. Torture would never be just and if he were being tortured he would be screaming and shouting profanities.
D. The rich man asks Abraham to dip his finger in water to cool his tongue. If you were on fire, like a witch that was burnt at the stake, you would ask Abraham to fetch a few bucket loads of water. Go and place your finger on a motorbike exhaust after it was ridden and let me know if all you want for the two seconds your finger engaged with extreme heat is a 'wet finger' on it. You will be screaming in pain and rush to the pharmacy for 'burn shield' or keep a running tap of cold water on it.

So we see from this that fire does not effect a spirit as harshly as it does our body / flesh. We also know from the scripture you gave that all will be placed in the lake of fire. IE all will be punished in the same manner. This speaks to no partiality by God. That is good. We also know that God will punish according to sins committed Rom 2:6, Jer 21:14, Col 3:25.

Col 3:25 Whoever does wrong will be repaid for their wrongs, and there is no partiality.

Since scripture does not mention other forms of punishment, other than fire, the only way to punish people differently would be to place them for a longer or shorter period in fire. You need a lake of fire for all eternity as people will sin and need sessions of punishment for all eternity. This is the best we can discern for now, without seeing what actually transpires. We must certainly not come with something like 'Dante's inferno' type levels of punishment just because we have scripture mentioning the wicked will be punished according to their sins.

4. Eternal Punishment

This is probably the most terrifying truth about God's justice and hell. We can understand the need to punish someone for a crime they committed. We can understand the need to separate criminals from innocent people. But eternal damnation? Impossible to grasp.

As I have said many times, we should all be for rehabilitation, a universalist type approach to hell.

But, scripture is crystal clear that this is not the case. Scripture is clear that punishment will be eternal. The reason for this, is due to the fact that God and only God is able to judge the depths of our hearts and minds Jer 17:9-10. Something we cannot do.

It should terrify us to know that one day when God drops the hammer, His decision on where He places us for all eternity, is final.

 

[B-A-C]

I don't have time to reply to all of this this morning (I am headed to Idaho this morning).
But while I don't agree with everything you posted above... I do actually feel like we are making progress and
do agree on a number of things.

Have a good 4th of July weekend. (I don't know if you are American in the US).

 

[Garee]

I have explained worms to you. There are no worms.

I have explained fire to you. Well Jesus did in Luke 16:19-31. Bolding the words 'FIRE, BRIMSTONE, WEEPING, GNSAHING OF TEETH and NO REST DAY OR NIGHT' do not change the very clear depiction drawn for us by Jesus in this passage.

Most Christians are influenced by the devil to push a narrative of God being evil as hell will be torturous. Nobody wants to serve an evil God. We reduce Him to our level like the demigods in Greek mythology. Atheists sleep better at night knowing that if our God is real, they are good to not care about Him as He is evil.

There is simply no way to defend God as good if there is torture in hell. Now when you pick only those scriptures that mention, FIRE, BRIMSTONE, NO REST, WORMS, ETERNITY, PUNSIHMENT, WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH'' you are like a doctor throwing medicine into a patients face. Completely and utterly misrepresenting God on what is clearly a very sensitive topic. A topic a Christian needs to put effort into properly communicating. A topic a Christian can so easily fail on.

---------------------------------------------------------------

The truth in hell is a combination of the following. I see four clear truths about hell. Much like God gave Adam and Eve four truths about earth when they were removed from the garden.

1. Separation.

You cannot have repentant sinners with unrepentant sinners. Even today we separate criminals into prisons.

Separation anxiety causes people to weep and gnash their teeth.

Luke 13:28 There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.

2. Darkness

When you place unrepentant sinners together you have a place that is a metaphorical darkness. It is not pleasant to live next to an unrepentant thief or rapist. Everyday is a type of torment.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

3. Punishment by fire

Whilst 1 and 2 are certainly a type of punishment, they are not a punishment specific to a crime committed. From the scriptures you quoted, it is crystal clear that God's chosen form of delivering punishment for sins is fire.

Now, I repeat, the only passage in the entirety of scripture that gives a clear depiction of the exact type of suffering that one will experience in fire is from the words of Jesus in Luke 16:19-31.

We all know how terrible fire can be. In the OT it was the worst type of capital punishment. Today we have people prolonging your suffering by placing a tyre around you. We have Dante's inferno speaking of lava. It is so easy to incriminate God as evil with fire as it is so easy to assume it is a form of torture. Most Christians paint a picture akin to a brazen bull. The most evil people in all of human history would torture. I cannot believe someone can claim to know God and teach that He would likewise torture. Place God atop a list of the most evil beings to ever live. It makes me so sick to read Christians misrepresent God on this. God is good, the definition of love and if you do not know this, you do not know Him 1 John 4:8.

Now some key facts to note on Luke 16:19-31:

A. The rich man calls it an agonizing fire. So it is certainly not pleasant.
B. He is able to hold a thoughtful and lengthy conversation with Abraham. So clearly not akin to a brazen bull or being burnt at the stake.
C. He is not mad at God or Abraham. He is not screaming at either. Clearly he knows he deserves to be there and more importantly, he knows that the punishment is just. Torture would never be just and if he were being tortured he would be screaming and shouting profanities.
D. The rich man asks Abraham to dip his finger in water to cool his tongue. If you were on fire, like a witch that was burnt at the stake, you would ask Abraham to fetch a few bucket loads of water. Go and place your finger on a motorbike exhaust after it was ridden and let me know if all you want for the two seconds your finger engaged with extreme heat is a 'wet finger' on it. You will be screaming in pain and rush to the pharmacy for 'burn shield' or keep a running tap of cold water on it.

So we see from this that fire does not effect a spirit as harshly as it does our body / flesh. We also know from the scripture you gave that all will be placed in the lake of fire. IE all will be punished in the same manner. This speaks to no partiality by God. That is good. We also know that God will punish according to sins committed Rom 2:6, Jer 21:14, Col 3:25.

Col 3:25 Whoever does wrong will be repaid for their wrongs, and there is no partiality.

Since scripture does not mention other forms of punishment, other than fire, the only way to punish people differently would be to place them for a longer or shorter period in fire. You need a lake of fire for all eternity as people will sin and need sessions of punishment for all eternity. This is the best we can discern for now, without seeing what actually transpires. We must certainly not come with something like 'Dante's inferno' type levels of punishment just because we have scripture mentioning the wicked will be punished according to their sins.

4. Eternal Punishment

This is probably the most terrifying truth about God's justice and hell. We can understand the need to punish someone for a crime they committed. We can understand the need to separate criminals from innocent people. But eternal damnation? Impossible to grasp.

As I have said many times, we should all be for rehabilitation, a universalist type approach to hell.

But, scripture is crystal clear that this is not the case. Scripture is clear that punishment will be eternal. The reason for this, is due to the fact that God and only God is able to judge the depths of our hearts and minds Jer 17:9-10. Something we cannot do.

It should terrify us to know that one day when God drops the hammer, His decision on where He places us for all eternity, is final.

Worms represent the dead no oxygen needed to breath.


Digging up dead men's bones (worm food) and pronouncing judgment like with Pope Formoso and the Cadaver trial is of the devil.

One appointment to die no reincarnation's returning to the dying flesh no retrial: No double jeopardy.