Annihilation of all the wicked?

[KingJ]

Rev 6 9-17 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. 12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

I have had this passage on my mind and cannot stop thinking about it. Two very clear issues jump out at me.

1. Death of the saints. 2. Annihilation of the wicked

1. What is it with us dying?? Why can't we all just be raptured. Why can't we just have a heart attack. Just have our spirits taken. God seems committed to having us endure death at the hands of the wicked.

I notice with crystal clarity the fact that any who die for His names sake are taken to heaven and receive white robes. Does God need to know if we can endure this? Do we need to endure this to feel at home in heaven with God? Does this only apply to those on earth not raptured? If so it paints a crystal clear picture of the dedication needed from a Christian. IE We must not take a verse like Matt 16:24 candidly. We must be able to judge ourselves as being able to die at any moment for our belief.

2. I have never believed this is in an eternal sense, but I can't remove this thought from my mind.

Look at verse 10. Those Christians previously slain for their faith are waiting for God to get vengeance. Now, put yourselves in their shoes. Being in heaven and all. Ask yourself, are they waiting to see God torture the wicked? Or are they waiting to see God annihilate the wicked. They know something is coming. So it is not a flower party. It could also be that they are referring specifically to those on the earth at this moment in time. IE They were slain during the tribulation. God is now saying 'wait, there are still more to be slain'. They want those on earth removed from earth? That doesn't seem like something they would rush God for. The context seems to be something more. Like they want true vengeance, eternal vengeance. Then verse 17 doesn't help defend the wicked ''who shall be able to stand''

This chapter makes a strong case for eternal annihilation of the wicked.

Have you guys thought much about this possibility? Lake of fire being a lake of fire where all the dead are, dead.

I am also digesting the possibility of being tied to a stake waiting for some hungry lion to maul me to death. Being helpless to help my family. This is truly annoying and nightmarish thoughts. Ergh, some wicked deserve annihilation. Is it coming for them?

 

[B-A-C]

1. Death of the saints. 2. Annihilation of the wicked

I notice this is during the fifth seal of the tribulation. There are two groups of martyrs here. People killed for their faith from
since the beginning of Christianity, ( I would include Judaism here ) and those martyred during the tribulation.
But I don't believe "all saints" have to be martyred. Indeed I have known a number of Christians who have died natural
deaths.

1. What is it with us dying?? Why can't we all just be raptured. Why can't we just have a heart attack. Just have our spirits taken. God seems committed to having us endure death at the hands of the wicked.

Depending on whether you believe in the rapture, pre-trib rapture or post-trib rapture this can be taken a number of ways.
In my experience I would say "most" Christians believe in a pre-trib rapture. If this is the case, these saints who get martyred
during the rapture must be people who get saved after the rapture happens. Now you do bring up a good point. Whether they
are Christians who get saved after the rapture, or whether they are Christians saved before the tribulation began, (possibly
both) do "all" Christians during the tribulation have to be martyred?

When you say "God seems committed to having us endure death at the hands of the wicked.".
Do these things happen because God "makes" them happen, or because God "lets" them happen. There is a difference.
One involves free-will.

Those Christians previously slain for their faith are waiting for God to get vengeance. Now, put yourselves in their shoes. Being in heaven and all. Ask yourself, are they waiting to see God torture the wicked? Or are they waiting to see God annihilate the wicked

Again, I am missing the part where He "annihilates" them.

he context seems to be something more. Like they want true vengeance, eternal vengeance. Then verse 17 doesn't help defend the wicked ''who shall be able to stand''

Deut 32:35; 'Vengeance is Mine, and retribution, In due time their foot will slip; For the day of their calamity is near, And the impending things are hastening upon them.'
Rom 12:19; Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.
(also see Heb 10:30; )

Those are just a couple of verses, but over and over again through the Bible God says He will punish those who hurt His children.
Why would anyone think this is a bad thing? This is righteousness and justice. No punishment for evil equals no righteousness
and no justice.

Rev 16:5; And I heard the angel of the waters saying, "Righteous are You, who are and who were, O Holy One, because You judged these things;
Rev 16:6; for they poured out the blood of saints and prophets, and You have given them blood to drink. They deserve it."
Rev 16:7; And I heard the altar saying, "Yes, O Lord God, the Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments."

Have you guys thought much about this possibility? Lake of fire being a lake of fire where all the dead are, dead.

Yes, I have thought about it. But the Bible doesn't support it.
For example, here we have those who take the mark of the beast.

Rev 14:9; Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10; he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11; "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Their torment is forever, they have no rest day and night.

It's the same with the devil, the beast, and the false prophet

Rev 20:10; And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Tormented day and night forever and ever.

Matt 18:8; "If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.

Matt 25:46; "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The punishment is just as eternal as the eternal life Christians are given.

 

[B-A-C]

I missed the main scripture I was wanted to post.

2 Thes 1:5; This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering.
2 Thes 1:6; For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
2 Thes 1:7; and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,
2 Thes 1:8; dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
2 Thes 1:9; These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Lam 3:64; Pay them back, LORD, for all the evil they have done.

 

[KingJ]

Depending on whether you believe in the rapture, pre-trib rapture or post-trib rapture this can be taken a number of ways.
In my experience I would say "most" Christians believe in a pre-trib rapture. If this is the case, these saints who get martyred during the rapture must be people who get saved after the rapture happens. Now you do bring up a good point. Whether they are Christians who get saved after the rapture, or whether they are Christians saved before the tribulation began, (possibly both) do "all" Christians during the tribulation have to be martyred?

Not looking to discuss the rapture. My use of it was rhetorical.

When you say "God seems committed to having us endure death at the hands of the wicked.".
Do these things happen because God "makes" them happen, or because God "lets" them happen. There is a difference. One involves free-will.

If God keeps us on earth to serve Him during this period we could argue He let's it happen. He can foreknow the time I would be on earth, have kids. This would not be an abuse of omniscience, just a case of ''it is what it is''. Now, God could surely find a way to remove us before we are martyred?

I must confess. I do battle with understanding how God helps Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego in the furnace. But Steven, stands there in pain being stoned to death. Early disciples and Christians fed to lions. Dying brutal deaths. Nero putting Christians on pikes. Real torture. Real brutality. Real suffering. Why is this necessary?

Again, I am missing the part where He "annihilates" them.

It is my inserted assumption based off of what they say. They are in heaven, asking God to avenge them. Are they merely referring to 1. take them from earth. Or 2. take them from earth and send them to a torturous fire in hell or 3. take them from earth and annihilate them. I don't believe 1 as this would not be something warranting discussion with God. Their death is a given. I don't believe 2, as we would easily question their morals, to make a statement like that whilst in heaven, to a holy and righteous God. 'Hey God, all thousand of us are in one accord and want to know when you are going to slowly torture those who killed us?'. Point 3 seems the most logical. The punishment prompting them to raise the issue with God. They want death for death. Just chew on it for a while BAC, you will see what I am saying.

Deut 32:35; 'Vengeance is Mine, and retribution, In due time their foot will slip; For the day of their calamity is near, And the impending things are hastening upon them.'
Rom 12:19; Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.
(also see Heb 10:30; )

Those are just a couple of verses, but over and over again through the Bible God says He will punish those who hurt His children.
Why would anyone think this is a bad thing? This is righteousness and justice. No punishment for evil equals no righteousness
and no justice.

Rev 16:5; And I heard the angel of the waters saying, "Righteous are You, who are and who were, O Holy One, because You judged these things;
Rev 16:6; for they poured out the blood of saints and prophets, and You have given them blood to drink. They deserve it."
Rev 16:7; And I heard the altar saying, "Yes, O Lord God, the Almighty, true and righteous are Your judgments."

Yes, I have thought about it. But the Bible doesn't support it.
For example, here we have those who take the mark of the beast.

Rev 14:9; Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10; he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11; "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Their torment is forever, they have no rest day and night.

It's the same with the devil, the beast, and the false prophet

Rev 20:10; And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Tormented day and night forever and ever.

Matt 18:8; "If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than to have two hands or two feet and be cast into the eternal fire.

Matt 25:46; "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

The punishment is just as eternal as the eternal life Christians are given.

Thanks for these scriptures. The discussion of eternal fire vs annihilation is almost as close as OSAS verse Arminianism. I could read all those verses you quoted with an annihilation cap on and see them as support. Example: Eternal punishment = death is eternal. Lake of fire and brimstone = nothing survives that. If the plan was for something to survive it, it would read thorns and hot water?. Torment goes up forever and ever = Problem for annihilationism. I guess one could argue the lake and the torment they suffered stays there as an eternal reminder. But that verse says ''their'' torment. So I guess, this is the key verse to grasp.