Butch5
Active
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2019
- Messages
- 3,334
I would say that the passage is saying that people won't die anymore.
Anihilationism
- Thread starter Sosthenes
- Start date
B-A-C
Loyal
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2008
- Messages
- 11,927
You realize, this includes you.
Butch5
Active
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2019
- Messages
- 3,334
Absolutely! That's why I'm not posting dictionary definitions or commentary. What I've presented is all from Scripture. I've laid out logical arguments from those Scriptures. If my arguments are flawed then we should see that. I haven't seen anyone do that yet. When I say aion can't mean everlasting it's based on the statement Jesus made speaking of the end of the aion. Logic dictates that something that ends cannot be everlasting. That's may argument, it's based in Scripture and logic.
Dave M
Loyal
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2015
- Messages
- 4,878
Butch5
Active
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2019
- Messages
- 3,334
Logic isn't man's. The laws of logic are beyond man. They are part of the created order. God has established them. But here's the point, His word was given to reveal things to us. If we can't understand them what is the point of the revelation, If your boss left instructions for you about a project you needed to complete but those instructions were in some language that you didn't understand, what is the point in giving them? There's no point in God telling us things we're unable to understand. But that's not what we have here. What we have here is interpretations and definitions that openly contradict other passage of Scripture. We have translators and theologians saying a word means everlasting when Jesus said it ends.
Dave M
Loyal
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2015
- Messages
- 4,878
I would have to respectfully disagree with this, his spirit is given to us to revel his words.
Butch5
Active
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2019
- Messages
- 3,334
How would that happen without His word?
Dave M
Loyal
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2015
- Messages
- 4,878
With out his spirit you will never understand his word with mans logic, because his word defies man logic, it has to be revealed to you.
11 And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
12 For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
13 This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:“‘“You will indeed hear but never understand and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
15 For this people's heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear.
17 For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
11 And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
12 For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
13 This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:“‘“You will indeed hear but never understand and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
15 For this people's heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear.
17 For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
Brad Huber
Loyal
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2012
- Messages
- 4,633
I would most emphatically disagree with you, the laws of logic are all man made. They reside in the physical, and dont take into account the spiritual. They go as far as saying that spiritual arguements carry less weight because there is less validation in emperical science for said spiritual, but somehow think they should be able to figure everything out alone with man's wisdom, man's logic, and man's science. I dont say this as someone who see's science and logic as bad, but its like comparing the logic of an ant with the logic/truth of God. They are so far apart that even though the ant's logic puts itself in good standing in this world, being able to do massive works for such small stature, even man could eradicate them if we so desired. The ant cant see our logic, but our logic is no doubt better than theirs overall.
Dave M
Loyal
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2015
- Messages
- 4,878
and a real world example of this is how the apostles considered it a joy to go to jail or even die for the gospel, not logical at all, yet spirit filled people understand it.
Butch5
Active
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2019
- Messages
- 3,334
Sorry Brad, I don't see your argument here. Who created the world? Was it man that made it so that a glass cannot be both full and empty at the same time? Or was it God? Logic is not man made. Man simply uses logic. Logic says that something cannot be both infinite and finite at the same time. Logic is simply correct reasoning. God is the one who created that. Man didn't decide this is how it's going to work, God did. When comparing humans to ants you're speaking of intelligence, not logic. Just like a human an ant can't be both alive and dead at the same time. God has made it that way. Is our intelligence comparable to God? Absolutely not. However, the doesn't mean logic is any different with God than man. God called on the Israelites to reason with Him. That requires logic.
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. (Isa. 1:18 KJV)
So, God too uses logic. It seems to me that you're conflating logic and intelligence. They are not the same. A person doesn't have to be intelligent to be logical and likewise someone who is intelligent can be illogical.
Last edited by a moderator:
Butch5
Active
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2019
- Messages
- 3,334
Sure it's logical. If I saw someone who was dead and they came alive again, I'd do the same thing.
Dave M
Loyal
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2015
- Messages
- 4,878
yet you have not seen it, have you?? would you do the same thing??
Butch5
Active
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2019
- Messages
- 3,334
Logic isn't an opinion. It's proper reasoning. It's a chain of reason. If A then B, If not A then not B.
Greetings,
part of the problem we can face is the alphabet/language and the potential for limiting the chain based on our own present ability to grasp beyond that which we are aware of.
Ever mindful that the ways and thoughts of the LORD God are not the same as man's.
This tends to effect all of us, no matter who we are or think we are.
Something definitely needful to remember is the way of God is His way, so any logic of God (if there is a such a thing??) will not blend with the logic of the flesh, if it is tainted at all.... in other words, those who are led by the Spirit are the same as those who, like the wind, we know not where they come from nor where they go.
But we do have clear instruction for how to fellowship and how as many members of the same Body we must do all in love according to His definition of love, not ours.
Bless you all ....><>
Butch5
Active
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2019
- Messages
- 3,334
Hi Br. Bear,
I would submit that there is logic. I don't know that anyone can make a case for a logic of God that would be different than what He has created. I keep hearing this term, 'logic of man'. I would submit that there is no such thing. A person can either reason properly or improperly. I don't see anything in between. One of the laws of logic is that two opposing things cannot both be true at the same time. That's not something that man created. It's inherent in God's creation, it's the way He created the creation.
I find it odd that some suggest that these things are beyond our understanding. By doing so one undermines their own argument. If these things are beyond our grasp then one cannot argue that the other view is wrong. If they are beyond our understanding there is no reason for God to give the information He has given us. It seems strange to me that people would try to reject or discredit proper thinking to try to hold to a point of view. That argument itself defeats their very purpose. If proper reasoning is rejected so as to hold a particular view, one cannot know if their view is correct because they've rejected proper reasoning. In such a case one can only hold a view because it is comfortable and feels good.
Greetings all,
maybe we ought to use a different word than 'logic'?
I see (understand) where one might find 'logic' of man to be at best, short of God's Wisdom and Way, but again, 'logic' may not be the best term to use?
However, we do need to be careful to not split hairs or atoms too much. If we find ourselves doing so, we ought to back up a little and 'fess up to the fact that any God given Wisdom or Knowledge is exactly that, God given, and if another has not the same use of language as someone else, that does not render them unable to love the LORD. We can strain at gnats but that is only a show, as they would pass without any bother!
There are some things however that we do need to be specific about and deviation from the specific can cause ruin.
Try to get back to the topic, rather than the intelect of each other's grace bestowed lives.
Bless you ....><>
maybe we ought to use a different word than 'logic'?
I see (understand) where one might find 'logic' of man to be at best, short of God's Wisdom and Way, but again, 'logic' may not be the best term to use?
However, we do need to be careful to not split hairs or atoms too much. If we find ourselves doing so, we ought to back up a little and 'fess up to the fact that any God given Wisdom or Knowledge is exactly that, God given, and if another has not the same use of language as someone else, that does not render them unable to love the LORD. We can strain at gnats but that is only a show, as they would pass without any bother!
There are some things however that we do need to be specific about and deviation from the specific can cause ruin.
Try to get back to the topic, rather than the intelect of each other's grace bestowed lives.
Bless you ....><>
Greetings again @Butch5
another avenue you might like to consider is how long is resurrection? Is it only for an age - as in, a use by date?
This gives rise also to that very point. The understanding of a word rendered as Age does not mean automatically it does have a use by date.
Looking at the age that passes or will pass or has passed, the time that has, etc,.... how long has it passed for? In other words, does it's passing last perpetually?
Chew well before swallowing
Bless you ....><>
another avenue you might like to consider is how long is resurrection? Is it only for an age - as in, a use by date?
This gives rise also to that very point. The understanding of a word rendered as Age does not mean automatically it does have a use by date.
Looking at the age that passes or will pass or has passed, the time that has, etc,.... how long has it passed for? In other words, does it's passing last perpetually?
Chew well before swallowing
Bless you ....><>
