Anihilationism

[Butch5]

Hello @Butch5 ,

Interesting - Thank you.

The only sure way is to allow Scripture to interpret Scripture. Let the Holy Spirit's usage of a word determine its meaning.

Within the love of Christ
Our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris

You're welcome!

 

[PloughBoy]

People, why do you let your beliefs drive your translation? Jesus said the aion will end. That means it can't be eternal. Why do so many not believe what He said?

Are you talking about The" inflammation of the arteries." " aion"

 

[PloughBoy]

You're welcome!

And what about the Dictionary of "Biblical Terminology" and "ISBE"? Hard copy of ISBE

 

[Butch5]

Torment for ever and ever can not happen if you no longer exist. Death when you define it as no longer existing is not punishment, it is escape from punishment.

wonder why Jesus spoke of hell and torment of it and the worms in hell that never die, if all that happens to us,, is we cease to exist.

wonder why that God gave us the parable of the rich man burning up in hades, with full memory if we dont exist after we die.

Wonder why Jesus preached on hell more they he did on heaven if we dont exist when we die.

Dave, Paul said, the wages of sin is death. He didn't say the wages of sin is eternal torment. God said the soul that sins shall die. He didn't say the soul that sins shall suffer eternal torment. The Scriptures tell us that God cannot life. It would seem then that if He says the punishment for sin is death, it's death. As I've pointed out aion cannot mean eternal. It just can't. People let their theology drive their translation that's why dictionaries say it means forever. There is no place called "Hell" in the Bible. That is an English translation and it is sad that translators have used this word. What they've done is introduce into the text the concept of a place in the earth where people are tormented. Jesus spoke of Hades, which is the grave. The word literally means, not seen. It is the unseen. No one in the Bible suffers ETC in this place. It is the word used in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, however, that parable is not about life after death. Jesus also spoke of Gehenna or the Valley of the Son of Hinom. This is a real place. It's located outside of Jerusalem. When Jesus talks about people being burned up it's in this valley. It's not some place inside of the earth. It's literally a physical valley. This is where the wicked will be cast. People will see the bodies burning there. And Jeremiah tells us that one day that place will once again be made holy to the Lord. Peter speaks of a place called Tartarus, this is where angels are cast. The KJV has translated all three of these words, Hades, Gehenna, and Tartarus, as hell. So, when someone reads the word hell, they don't know if it's the word Hades, Gehenna, or Tartarus. This one of the reasons people are so confused about this subject.

 

[Butch5]

Are you talking about The" inflammation of the arteries." " aion"

I'm talking about aion and that it can't mean eternal.

 

[Butch5]

And what about the Dictionary of "Biblical Terminology" and "ISBE"? Hard copy of ISBE

What about them?

 

[Butch5]

A question to those who hold to ETC, your doctrine is based on a Greek concept called "The Immortal Soul". This is not a Biblical teaching. The Apostle Paul said that the Father alone has immortality.

14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
(1 Tim. 6:14-16 KJV)

That means that man is not immortal. He doesn't have an immortal soul. That means that the "ONLY" way that man could suffer eternal conscious torment is if God kept him alive for that sole purpose. Would you charge God with this?

 

[Butch5]

Luke 20:35; but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
Luke 20:36; for they cannot even die anymore, for they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:37; But as for the fact that the dead are raised, even Moses revealed this in the passage about the burning bush, where he calls the Lord the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
Luke 20:38; Now He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; for all live to Him.”

In Luke 20, Jesus says those who are worthy of resurrection are like the angels. "they cannot even die anymore" . So the angels are unable to ever die.

Jude 1:6 ;And angels who did not keep their own domain but abandoned their proper dwelling place, these He has kept in eternal restraints under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
Jude 1:7; just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these angels indulged in sexual perversion and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

Now we could take Jude 1:7; and simply say well the fire is eternal, but that doesn't mean their punishment will be. Yet in Luke 20:36; Jesus says angels can never die, so if this is the case, the punishment is indeed forever.

Also in Luke 20 above, God tells Moses He is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who all died hundreds of years before Moses's time. How could He be their God if they were annihilated and don't exist anymore?Ta
If God is the God of the living, then they must still be alive in some form.

It seems the vast majority of your arguments are based on the idea that aion means foever. That cannot be so as Jesus said it would end. Take for instance your quote of Matthew 18:8. Here is Marks account of the same thing.

And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:1
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:1
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. (Mk. 9:43-46 KJV)

In this passage the word translated "hell" is Gehenna. Gehenna is a literal place outside of Jerusalem. What's burning in Gehenna?

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.1
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. (Isa. 66:23-1:1 KJV)

This is Gehenna that Jesus is referring to. Notice what is burning. It's dead bodies. It's not people being consciously tormented, it's dead bodies. Jeremiah tells us that one day this place will restored and made holy to the Lord.

38 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever. (Jer. 31:38-40 KJV)

Here again, we have more proof that aion cannot mean forever.

There's also a logical problem in this. If as people claim, aion means forever or eternity, what is forever and ever? What does, and ever mean? You can't have eternity and more eternity. Eternity is the end. You can't have more eternity. However, ages and ages works.

 

[B-A-C]

We are back to confusing two different words. aion, and aionios. One is forever, and one may not necessarily be.

 

[Butch5]

We are back to confusing two different words. aion, and aionios. One is forever, and one may not necessarily be.

They not two different words. It's one word, two forms. Aion is the noun. Aionios is the adjective. It's inflected. Aion is the noun, when it's used as an adjective they add "ios". We do the same thing in English. Heaven is a noun. When we want to use it as an adjective we add "ly". The meaning doesn't change. What changes is how it's used in the sentence.

 

[B-A-C]

They not two different words. It's one word, two forms. Aion is the noun. Aionios is the adjective. It's inflected. Aion is the noun, when it's used as an adjective they add "ios". We do the same thing in English. Heaven is a noun. When we want to use it as an adjective we add "ly". The meaning doesn't change. What changes is how it's used in the sentence.

Incorrect. Lived, and Living, both come from Live.
He lived, - which could indicate he is dead now.
He is living, - which indicates he is still living.

aion - a long period of time.
aionios - a perpetual (non ending) period of time.

 

[Butch5]

Incorrect. Lived, and Living, both come from Live.
He lived, - which could indicate he is dead now.
He is living, - which indicates he is still living.

aion - a long period of time.
aionios - a perpetual (non ending) period of time.

It's not incorrect. You can't change the rules to Greek grammar to make it fit what you believe. Also, in your example live didn't change meaning. Whether it's present or past tense it still means the same thing. The only difference is the time factor. However, you've changed the definition of aion from an age to eternity. Inflections don't change the meaning.

 

[PloughBoy]

Well, where did Lazarus go when He went to sleep? and was that a lie when Jesus said: our friend has fallen asleep.

11This He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.” 12The disciples then said to Him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” 13Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep. 14So Jesus then said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, 15and I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, so that you may believe; but let us go to him.” 16Therefore Thomas, who is called Didymus, said to his fellow disciples, “Let us also go, so that we may die with Him.”

So don't feel Bad, his disciples didn't get it either! But I do! and I need no one to explain it! Lazarus Was Sleep and He sure didn't go to Heaven! He slept for 3 days! His body died and after 3 day Jesus wake him up and Resurrected his body and put him back in it! What is it so hard about that.

Now can you do that? Now tell me why you cannot do that? Now meditate on that.

 

[Butch5]

Well, where did Lazarus go when He went to sleep? and was that a lie when Jesus said: our friend has fallen asleep.

11This He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.” 12The disciples then said to Him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” 13Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep. 14So Jesus then said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, 15and I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, so that you may believe; but let us go to him.” 16Therefore Thomas, who is called Didymus, said to his fellow disciples, “Let us also go, so that we may die with Him.”

So don't feel Bad, his disciples didn't get it either! But I do! and I need no one to explain it! Lazarus Was Sleep and He sure didn't go to Heaven! He slept for 3 days! His body died and after 3 day Jesus wake him up and Resurrected his body and put him back in it! What is it so hard about that.

Now can you do that? Now tell me why you cannot do that? Now meditate on that.

You're basing this on Dualism. The Bible doesn't teach Dualism

 

[PloughBoy]

I'm talking about aion and that it can't mean eternal.

I think some of these words that have a thousand different meaning should be left in the park. I still don't get what the heck "AION" got to do with Jesus.!

 

[PloughBoy]

You're basing this on Dualism. The Bible doesn't teach Dualism

What are you doing, drinking "Long Island tea" I don't know what you are talking about! What seminary did you go to, so i can understand your "School of Thought"! was it Harvard, Yale, Oxford, Cambridge? What school of Thought, and field of Hermeneutics? which one. What are you a "Rhodes Scholar"?

 

[PloughBoy]

Christian Dualism:
Christian dualism refers to the belief that God and creation are distinct, but interrelated through an indivisible bond. ... In sects like the Cathars and the Paulicians, this is a dualism between the material world, created by an evil god, and a moral god.

I have never, i said; never express myself in such a matter! Neither in thought or words! I am a "Calvinist" Reformed, in the Studies of "Theology Proper"! and show all the evidence. of Grammatical Historical method of Biblical interpretation since 1977 and not taught it, But fell into that camp by Studying the Scriptues alone.

 

[Butch5]

Christian Dualism:
Christian dualism refers to the belief that God and creation are distinct, but interrelated through an indivisible bond. ... In sects like the Cathars and the Paulicians, this is a dualism between the material world, created by an evil god, and a moral god.

I have never, i said; never express myself in such a matter! Neither in thought or words! I am a "Calvinist" Reformed, in the Studies of "Theology Proper"! and show all the evidence. of Grammatical Historical method of Biblical interpretation since 1977 and not taught it, But fell into that camp by Studying the Scriptues alone.

I didn't say Christian Dualism. I said Dualism. Dualism as it pertains to man is the idea that man is more than just a physical being, It's the idea that the "real man" is immaterial and able to live apart from the body, that the body is only a temporary dwelling. However, that's not what the Scriptures teach. They teach that man is from the dust of the ground with the breath of God giving him life. In this, man cannot live apart from the body. You're statement was that Lazarus was sleeping and that Jesus put him back into his body. That indicates that the "real man" wasn't the body. According to the Scriptures the "real man" is the body.

I'm intrigued as to how you use a historical hermeneutic and came to Reformed Theology. It seems to me the two would clash. I use a grammatical historical hermeneutic. The historical evidence doesn't support Calvinism.

 

[B-A-C]

It's the idea that the "real man" is immaterial and able to live apart from the body, that the body is only a temporary dwelling. However, that's not what the Scriptures teach.

Really?

1Cor 15:44; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
1Cor 15:45; So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1Cor 15:46; However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
1Cor 15:47; The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.
1Cor 15:48; As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
1Cor 15:49; Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.

1Cor 15:50; Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

John 3:6; "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

2Cor 5:1; For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Cor 5:2; For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
2Cor 5:3; inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.
2Cor 5:4; For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.

Ecc 12:7; then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

 

[Butch5]

Another way we know that the wicked are annihilated or destroyed is that aionios life is only offered to believers. Nowhere in the Scriptures are we told that the unbelievers or the wicked will receive aionios life. Let's look at Jesus' words.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (Jn. 3:16 KJV)

We see here that Jesus contrasts aionios life with perishing. Whosoever believes should not perish, but have aionios life. The wicked don't get aionios life. But note that Jesus didn't say they would burn forever, He said perish.

Paul said,

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom. 6:23 KJV)

He too contrasts aionios life and death. The wicked don't receive aionios life. Since the wicked don't have aionios life they can't suffer forever.