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Anihilationism

Who should I believe knows more about this subject, you or Jesus?

I leave you with this my freind,,, plain short and simple, we can disagree if you dont think forever and ever mean eternity I do think it means eternity, we wont change each others mind so have a blessed weekend

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.
 
for those interested.....


World

kosmos (Strong's #2889) World

aion (Strong's #165) Age

The Authorized Version translates kosmos as "world" everywhere except in1Peter3:3. And this is also the Authorized Version's usual translation of aion. The Authorized Version translates kosmos as "age" only in Ephesians 2:7 and in Colossians 1:26. Although "age" may sound inadequate now, had it been used more frequently, it might have expanded gradually so that it adapted itself to the larger meaning of kosmos. It is unfortunate that the translators of the Authorized Version did not devise some means to distinguish between kosmos and aion. Indeed the Latin, no less than the Greek, has two words where we have used only one. This deficiency is evident in all of those passages that refer to the end or consummation of the aion, as well as in those that speak of "the wisdom of this world" ( 1 Corinthians 2:6), "the god of this world" ( 2 Corinthians 4:4), and "the children of this world" ( Luke 16:8). The New King James Version improved many of these passages by translating aion as "age."

Kosmos has an interesting history for several reasons. Suidas traced its development through four successive meanings: "Ho kosmos signifies in Scripture four things: goodly appearance, the whole, orderliness, magnitude." Originally kosmos meant "ornament," which is its primary meaning in the Old Testament and a meaning it has once in the New Testament ( 1 Peter 3:3). Next kosmos came to mean "order" or "arrangement" and then "beauty"as springing out of these"goodly appearance," and "orderliness" (according to Suidas) or (according to Hesychius) kallopismos, kataskeue, taxis (Strong's #5010), katastasis, and kallos. Pythagoras was the first to use kosmos to refer to the sum total of the material universe, and according to Plutarch, he did this to express his sense of the universe's beauty and order. According to others, Pythagoras only used kosmos to refer to heaven because of its well-ordered arrangement, not to the whole material universe. This is often the way kosmos is used in Xenophon, Isocrates, Plato, and Aristotle.Augustine described the Latin mundus (world) as "the arrangement and regulation of each single thing formed and distinguished," which is nearly the same as the Greek kosmos. This similarity gave rise to Augustine's profound play on words: "O munde immunde"(O filthy clean). Thus Pliny stated: "What the Greeks with a name of embellishment have called kosmon, we have termed mundum from its perfect and absolute elegance." And Cicero said: "The Greeks well name it kosmon as noted for its variety, we refer to it as a shining mundum."

From its use as referring to the material universe, kosmos came to refer to the external framework of things where man lives and moves and is himself the moral center. In that sense, kosmos is nearly equivalent to oikoumene, and then to the people themselves, to the sum total of persons living in the world. From that meaning an ethical use of kosmos developed that referred to all who were not of the ekklesia (Strong's #1577) and who therefore were alienated from the life of God and were his enemies because of their wicked deeds. It is hardly necessary to remind the reader of the immense role that this sense of kosmos plays in John's theology, both in his record of Jesus' sayings and in his own writings. This last sense of kosmos was utterly unknown to the entire heathen world, which had no sense of the opposition between God and man, the holy and unholy, though this sense was latent but not distinct in the Old Testament.

Aristotle's etymology of aion "receiving its name from aei einai [always being]" must be rejected as incorrect. It is more likely that aion derives from ao and aemi (to breathe). Like kosmos, aion has a primary and physical meaning and an additional secondary and ethical meaning. Aion's primary meaning refers to time short or long in its unbroken duration. In classical Greek, aion often refers to the duration of a human life. But the essential meaning of aion is time as the condition for all created things and as the measure of their existence. Thus Theodoret wrote:

Ho aion is not any substance, but it is an irresistible thing, accompanying those who have a mortal nature; for the interval from the constituting of the world [kosmou] to its consummation is called aionaion then is the interval yoked to created nature.

Aion came to mean all that exists in the world under conditions of time: "The totality of what is discernible in the passage of time, the world inasmuch as it is active in time." Ethically speaking, aion refers to the course and current of this world's affairs. But since the world's course of affairs is sinful, it is not surprising that "this age"as contrasted with "that age" ( Luke 20:35) and "the coming age" ( Mark 10:30) and "the age about to come" ( Matthew 12:32) like kosmos soon acquired an unfavorable meaning. The "kingdoms of the world [kosmou]"in Matthew 4:8 are the "kingdoms of this age [aionos]" in Ignatius. God delivered us by his Son "from the present evil age [aionos]"( Galatians 1:4); Satan is "god of this age [aionos]" ( 2 Corinthians 4:4); and sinners walk kata ton aiona tou kosmou toutou ( Ephesians 2:2). This last phrase is translated too weakly in our Authorized Version as "according to the course of this world." Ephesians 2:2 is particularly instructive since kosmos and aion are both used. Bengel's excellent remarks are worth noting:

Aion and kosmos are different. The former controls and as it were shapes the later; kosmos is more outward and aion is more subtle. Aion is a term used not only physically, but also morally, denoting a quality of people living in it; and thus aion refers to a long succession of times when an evil age succeeds an evil age.

Compare Windischmann's remarks:

Aion dare never be taken to denote only time, but rather as embracing everything caught up in time, the world and its glory, people and their natural unredeemed doings and strivings, in contrast to yonder eternal kingdom of the Messiah, which only begins in the here and now and yearns to be perfected.

We attach an ethical meaning to "the times," as well as to "the age," "the spirit or genius of the age," and der Zeitgeist (the spirit of the time). Aion includes all the thoughts, opinions, maxims, speculations, impulses, and aspirations present in the world at any given time, which may be impossible to accurately define but which still constitute a real and effective power the moral or immoral atmosphere we breathe. Bengel called it the subtle shaping spirit of the kosmos, or world of people, who are living alienated and apart from God. Saeculum (age/spirit of the age) in Latin acquired the same sense, as in the familiar epigram of Tacitus: "Saeculum [age] is said to corrupt and to be corrupted."

The use of aiones in Hebrews 1:2; Hebrews 11:3, however, does not follow the preceding distinction between aion and kosmos. In both of these passages aiones refers to the worlds as seen in other than temporal terms. Some expositorsespecially modern Socinian oneshave attempted to explain aiones in Hebrews 1:2 as the successive dispensations, the chronoi kai kairoi of the divine management. However plausible this explanation might be if we take the verse in isolation, the use of aiones in Hebrews 11:3 is decisive. In both passages aiones can only mean "the world," not "the ages." I have called the Hebrews passages the only exceptions, for I do not believe that1Timothy1:17 is a third. In that passage aiones does not refer to "the worlds" in the usual concrete meaning of the term but to the "the ages," the temporal periods whose sum and aggregate foreshadow the conception of eternity. This usage agrees with the more common temporal meaning of aion in the New Testament. The "King of ton aionon" thus refers to the sovereign dispenser and disposer of the ages, where the mystery of God's purpose with man unfolds.Etymologically our English world more nearly represents aion than does the Greek kosmos. The old Weralt (in modern German Welt) is composed of two words, Wer (man) and Alt (age or generation). Thus the basic meaning of Weralt is "generation of men." The notion of space unfolds from this expression of time, as aion passed into the meaning of kosmos. In the earliest German records, however, Weralt is used first as an expression of time and only derivatively as one of space. Grimm, however, thought that world is equivalent to whirled. For the Hebrew equivalents of the words for time and eternity, see Conrad von Orelli. For their Greek and Latin equivalent such as there are, see Pott.


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Bibliography Information
Trench, Richard C. Entry for 'World'. Synonyms of the New Testament. -. 1854
 
I think it is also fair to and for those who are wanting to understand more about the use of 'age' or 'ages' to see that there are several usages of the world and not all are from the thus far presented 'aion'

Please see here for info regarding these other meanings etc

 
@Butch5

Greetings Harry,

but I told you the word is translated wrongly.


Perhaps if you could explain exactly who translated it wrongly, and into what languages, at what time in the history of the Bible and Scripture and by whose consensus it was agreed that not only the translation was wrong but also everything doctrinal about it?


Bless you ....><>
 
I leave you with this my freind,,, plain short and simple, we can disagree if you dont think forever and ever mean eternity I do think it means eternity, we wont change each others mind so have a blessed weekend

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.
I do think forever and ever means eternity. However, I don't think aion means eternity. It's disheartening to hear that you're not open to changing your mind. I really like to hear how you reconcile believing that aion means eternity when Jesus plainly stated it would end.
 
@Butch5

Greetings Harry,




Perhaps if you could explain exactly who translated it wrongly, and into what languages, at what time in the history of the Bible and Scripture and by whose consensus it was agreed that not only the translation was wrong but also everything doctrinal about it?


Bless you ....><>
Hi Br. Bear,

There is no consensus that I'm aware of that says the translation is wrong. It is Scripture and logic that show us that the translation is wrong. There are many passages that speak of aion as a finite period of time. If it is finite it logically can't be infinite. There are passages in which Jesus and the apostles speak of the end of the aion. Again, if it ends it can't be eternal. I believe a lot of the problem is that people use their theological beliefs to interpret Scripture. This includes theologians and church leaders. The protestants of today came out of the Roman Catholic Church. As we can see the RCC changed quite a bit of the teachings of the original faith. There is nothing in the Scriptures about praying to the saints. There is nothing about Purgatory. There is nothing about praying to Mary, and the list goes on. The Reformers got rid of these doctrines, however, they didn't get rid of everything, The point is that things have changed. This is because people interpret Scripture based on what they believe.

Before we had the New Testament or the Greek Old Testament, we had the Hebrew Scriptures. They were written to people with a Hebrew mindset and by people with a Hebrew mindset. In the Hebrew mind time and distance were related. As can be seen in the link I posted, the "olam" was what one could see. As one's view got more distant it also got less clear. One could only see what was to the horizon and not beyond. This also applied to time. One could see what was today and maybe tomorrow, but months or years were beyond one's sight. They were out of sight. That is the olam. When the Hebrew Scriptures were translated by Jewish Scholars into Greek, Greek didn't an olam. So, they had to come up with a way to convey that idea. They chose the word aion, an age. So when we see the word aion in the Greek Old Testament it is conveying this concept of the olam. It's not portraying a concept of eternity. When the New Testament came along the apostles were all Hebrews. They had a Hebrew mindset. They understood the Old Testament Scriptures from that mindset. So when they write the New Testament that is the mindset they are coming from. There are many passages in the New Testament that come from the Old. It seems many Christians separate the two, but there are not separate. One is a continuation of the other. So, logically we would expect the apostles to follow this same concept of the olam when using aion. If we compare the two testaments we can see that this is just what they've done.

Fast forward a few decades and now it's not primarily Jews who are being saved, but Gentiles. Greek Gentiles. These Greek Gentiles who are becoming Christians don't have a Hebrew mindset, they have a Greek one. So, naturally, they're going to understand the Scriptures with a Greek mindset and not a Hebrew one. The Greeks believe in an immortal soul, that the soul never died. This was the lens through which they filtered the Scriptures. We see Paul addressing this in his letters to the Corinthians. Some of them were denying the Resurrection. In the Greek mind the body was the prison of the soul and the goal was to escape it. They wouldn't have any interest in a Resurrection that would put their soul back into a body. This is why Paul said the Gospel is foolishness to the Greeks. So, it's with this Greek mindset that these Christians began to interpret the Scriptures. They were filtering the Scriptures through this belief system. In the Western world today we are primarily of a Greek mindset. Thus we still filter the Scriptures through this Greek way of thinking. It's only when we set this way of thinking aside and try to embrace the Hebrew mindset that we really begin to see what the Scriptures are saying. As long as we have this Greek mindset we will continue to have problems such as translations that say the priesthood of Aaron is everlasting when Paul states plainly that it was changed. As long as we have this Greek mindset we'll struggle with aion as everlasting when Jesus plainly said it ends.

In the end, the problem is that people translate the Scriptures based on what they already believe. All of these translators were Christians before they began to translate. Many, if not most, have attended seminary and have been "taught" what the Bible says. If they all go to seminary and are all taught the same things wouldn't we expect their commentaries and dictionaries to all say the same thing? It seems the only logical conclusion. That's why looking at 5 lexicons that all the same thing and then concluding that it must be so, doesn't help. Lexicon after lexicon says that aion means everlasting and yet Jesus said it ends. In the end I think Jesus had a much better understanding of the word aion than any lexicographer today.
 
Confusing 3 different words here.

alom is not aiōn
aiōn is not aionios

aion could be finite.
aionios never is.
 
Confusing 3 different words here.

alom is not aiōn
aiōn is not aionios

aion could be finite.
aionios never is.
Aion and aionios are the same word. One is the noun form and the other is the adjective form. It's like heaven and heavenly. Same word just used differntly in the sentemce.

What is this other word, alom? Did you mean the Hebrew word olam?
 
Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into
eternal life.”


I can not help wonder what you do with this scripture Butch,, we have a promise of eternal life or eternal punishment, seems your line of reasoning eternal life will come to a end???, if you think eternal punishment comes to a end, just can follow your logic on this.
 
Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into
eternal life.”


I can not help wonder what you do with this scripture Butch,, we have a promise of eternal life or eternal punishment, seems your line of reasoning eternal life will come to a end???, if you think eternal punishment comes to a end, just can follow your logic on this.
Hi Dave, again we have this dilemma. Here we see a contrast of aionios life with ainois punishment. Yet Jesus said this aion would end. So, the question we're left with is, does it end or not? It's really not hard to answer if we understand that aion means an age and not eternity or everlasting. The word age is an undefined length of time. It could 10 years, 100 years, or a million years. All of those could be an age. So, how long an age is must be determined by factors other than the definition of the word age. For instance, your age and my age are both ages, yet they are not the same length of time. The length of each of our ages is determined by when we were born. So, they are different lengths of time but both are still an age. So, if an age is an undetermined length of time which must be determined by other factors, could an age be unending? Yes, it could. We simply don't know from the definition of the word. So how does this affect our dilemma? Well aionios life must be determined from other passages of Scripture. Is it unending or is it finite? If we look at Luke, he records Jesus as speaking of the Resurrection and says that those who are worthy to attain that aion shall never die. Now notice, he said that aion. That means he's speaking of a different one than the one He was in. That aion will obviously never end because He says those people will never die. However, the judgment of the wicked will take place at the end of this aion. According to the Scriptures they will be destroyed and that state of them having been destroyed will continue in the next aion. Those thrown into the Lake of Fire won't be raised again, their destruction is permanent. How do we know that they are destroyed? It's all through the Scriptures. Psalm 37 says over and over.

This is how we can understand that aion doesn't mean forever. That definition of the word simply will not work in many passages of Scripture. However, aion as seen from the Hebrew mindset of Olam simply means for the foreseeable future.

When we understand aion or age as an undetermined length of time that is defined by the context we have no problem understanding the word throughout the Bible. We also don't have the contradictions that clearly arise when we try to define aion as eternal. When translators define it as forever we have the priesthood of Aaron lasting forever, yet Paul said the priesthood was changed and that Christ is the High Priest now. When we understand aion as an undetermined length of time or as the olam in the Old Testament, we see that the priesthood of Aaron was to continue for the foreseeable future, but it wasn't forever. This way we have no conflict with the statement Jesus made when He spoke of the end of the aion.
 
Matthew 25:46
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into
eternal life.”


I can not help wonder what you do with this scripture Butch,, we have a promise of eternal life or eternal punishment, seems your line of reasoning eternal life will come to a end???, if you think eternal punishment comes to a end, just can follow your logic on this.
Here's the verse in every major English translation. Matthew 25:46 - Bible Gateway

Nearly all translate ainos 'everlasting' or 'eternal. Young Literal is the exception with 'age-during'.

'And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

That's not very elegant English. But the sense of it is more accurate.
 
Hi Br. Bear,

There is no consensus that I'm aware of that says the translation is wrong. It is Scripture and logic that show us that the translation is wrong. There are many passages that speak of aion as a finite period of time. If it is finite it logically can't be infinite. There are passages in which Jesus and the apostles speak of the end of the aion. Again, if it ends it can't be eternal. I believe a lot of the problem is that people use their theological beliefs to interpret Scripture. This includes theologians and church leaders. The protestants of today came out of the Roman Catholic Church. As we can see the RCC changed quite a bit of the teachings of the original faith. There is nothing in the Scriptures about praying to the saints. There is nothing about Purgatory. There is nothing about praying to Mary, and the list goes on. The Reformers got rid of these doctrines, however, they didn't get rid of everything, The point is that things have changed. This is because people interpret Scripture based on what they believe.

Before we had the New Testament or the Greek Old Testament, we had the Hebrew Scriptures. They were written to people with a Hebrew mindset and by people with a Hebrew mindset. In the Hebrew mind time and distance were related. As can be seen in the link I posted, the "olam" was what one could see. As one's view got more distant it also got less clear. One could only see what was to the horizon and not beyond. This also applied to time. One could see what was today and maybe tomorrow, but months or years were beyond one's sight. They were out of sight. That is the olam. When the Hebrew Scriptures were translated by Jewish Scholars into Greek, Greek didn't an olam. So, they had to come up with a way to convey that idea. They chose the word aion, an age. So when we see the word aion in the Greek Old Testament it is conveying this concept of the olam. It's not portraying a concept of eternity. When the New Testament came along the apostles were all Hebrews. They had a Hebrew mindset. They understood the Old Testament Scriptures from that mindset. So when they write the New Testament that is the mindset they are coming from. There are many passages in the New Testament that come from the Old. It seems many Christians separate the two, but there are not separate. One is a continuation of the other. So, logically we would expect the apostles to follow this same concept of the olam when using aion. If we compare the two testaments we can see that this is just what they've done.

Fast forward a few decades and now it's not primarily Jews who are being saved, but Gentiles. Greek Gentiles. These Greek Gentiles who are becoming Christians don't have a Hebrew mindset, they have a Greek one. So, naturally, they're going to understand the Scriptures with a Greek mindset and not a Hebrew one. The Greeks believe in an immortal soul, that the soul never died. This was the lens through which they filtered the Scriptures. We see Paul addressing this in his letters to the Corinthians. Some of them were denying the Resurrection. In the Greek mind the body was the prison of the soul and the goal was to escape it. They wouldn't have any interest in a Resurrection that would put their soul back into a body. This is why Paul said the Gospel is foolishness to the Greeks. So, it's with this Greek mindset that these Christians began to interpret the Scriptures. They were filtering the Scriptures through this belief system. In the Western world today we are primarily of a Greek mindset. Thus we still filter the Scriptures through this Greek way of thinking. It's only when we set this way of thinking aside and try to embrace the Hebrew mindset that we really begin to see what the Scriptures are saying. As long as we have this Greek mindset we will continue to have problems such as translations that say the priesthood of Aaron is everlasting when Paul states plainly that it was changed. As long as we have this Greek mindset we'll struggle with aion as everlasting when Jesus plainly said it ends.

In the end, the problem is that people translate the Scriptures based on what they already believe. All of these translators were Christians before they began to translate. Many, if not most, have attended seminary and have been "taught" what the Bible says. If they all go to seminary and are all taught the same things wouldn't we expect their commentaries and dictionaries to all say the same thing? It seems the only logical conclusion. That's why looking at 5 lexicons that all the same thing and then concluding that it must be so, doesn't help. Lexicon after lexicon says that aion means everlasting and yet Jesus said it ends. In the end I think Jesus had a much better understanding of the word aion than any lexicographer today.
Hello @Butch5 ,

Interesting - Thank you.

The only sure way is to allow Scripture to interpret Scripture. Let the Holy Spirit's usage of a word determine its meaning.

Within the love of Christ
Our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris
 
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Torment for ever and ever can not happen if you no longer exist. Death when you define it as no longer existing is not punishment, it is escape from punishment.

wonder why Jesus spoke of hell and torment of it and the worms in hell that never die, if all that happens to us,, is we cease to exist.

wonder why that God gave us the parable of the rich man burning up in hades, with full memory if we dont exist after we die.

Wonder why Jesus preached on hell more they he did on heaven if we dont exist when we die.
 
Here's two Bible scholars that I respect and admire with differing views on this: Greg Boyd and J I Packer.



They both put their points fairly and with utmost respect for scripture. (Watch out for the 1997 website design of James Packer's piece though.)
 
Hello there,

When I realised that the word Hell was a middle English word meaning to hide away, chosen by the translators to best translate Sheol, Hades, Tartaroo and Gehenna as the place of the dead, I searched the Scriptures for each of it's usages, within their contexts, with that meaning in mind. I also looking up the alternative translations of Sheol, Hades and Gehenna (Tartaroo having only one usage) and in doing so became thoroughly acquainted with the way the Holy Spirit used those words. This knowledge lifted me out of man's interpretation and put my feet solidly onto the firm ground of Scriptural usage. For which I praise God!

The same thing applies to the state of the dead, and the truth concerning the soul of man. I found that the soul is not immortal, and that it has no destination but the grave at the death of the body, that only the breath of life (or spirit) returns to God Who gave it. Without that breath of life man is no longer a living soul. There is no life apart from resurrection.

Only of the believing dead is it said that they 'sleep in Christ' for only they have the hope of resurrection life in Christ Jesus.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
A thought to share -- I've been in Bible all my life -- lots of Bible studies -- good pastor/ teachers. We have the situation of Lazarus and the rich man in the book of Luke. The man who went to Hades (whatever name a person chooses to use) was aware of his surroundings and he was Not comfortable in the least. He wanted Someone / Anyone to go warn his brothers who were still alive and messing around to be aware of their future if they did not repent of their sinning and turn to God.

In the book of Revelation chapter 20 verses 7 and following. After the 1,000 yrs have come to an end. Satan will be released from his prison.

The devil was caste into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

vs 12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God ( the dead do not remain dead -- their physical bodies die -- but their soul remains forever.) There are two books that are opened.

vs 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works.

vs 14 "Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. The is the second death.

So -- it sounds like 'they' are still alive and will be judged -- each one according to his works.

That does Not sound like anihilation -- being out of the presence of God Will be total darkness. He is the light of the world.

There have been those who've searched the Scriptures diligently and conclude that they have the answer to particular questions. Searching the Greek/ Hebrew and everything there is to know. But only God has all knowledge.

It's our personal relationship with Jesus Christ that will make the difference for eternity. Being a Greek / Hebrew scholar -- as great as that is -- won't get a person to heaven.
 
Without that breath of life man is no longer a living soul. There is no life apart from resurrection.

Only of the believing dead is it said that they 'sleep in Christ' for only they have the hope of resurrection life in Christ Jesus.

Actually even the unbelievers will be resurrected. ( John 5:29; Acts 24:15; ) it's where you spend eternity after the resurrection that is the issue.
 
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