El Hombre viejo
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I know, I agree with what you present but what was said to Adam before Eve was present in Chapter 2 actually happened first is all I said.
Gary
Brother Mike
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The Creature was MADE.
Thank you Thiscrosshurts.
As I stated, this has gotten into an election type discussion.
I will also say I don't know everything.
All scripture must be taken in the light of other scriptures, Please read over everything I posted if you have not done so. Those scriptures must fit perfectly with ..............
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him (God?, we will believe God is the correct choice) who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Your translation:
Rom 8:21 .....that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay........
I don't know everything, I gave many scriptures to prove God responds after man acts. I gave scripture on what God himself said about how he responds to man.
The question is........... when was everything made subject to vanity, and not by choice. This would give a strong indication that God did plan for things to turn out as they did from the start.
The problem with this is that it contradicts all the other scriptures I posted. That can't be so.
So why is the whole creature subject to bondage? Why is it God subjected it to this? We know the solutions is Jesus, or being a Child of God. We know the Law brought the curse of the law, for no man could follow it.
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
The vanity, death, decay, corruption started with Adam's sin. Death came over those who even did not sin. (Not willingly) God did this by his reasoning, subjecting the whole earth to corruption-Decay under Adam's transgression, for all came from Adam.
Before Adam's sin, everything was awesome on the earth, minus Satan running around of course,which Adam was given charge to protect, and failed.
Jesus Is Lord.
Thank you Thiscrosshurts.
As I stated, this has gotten into an election type discussion.
I will also say I don't know everything.
All scripture must be taken in the light of other scriptures, Please read over everything I posted if you have not done so. Those scriptures must fit perfectly with ..............
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him (God?, we will believe God is the correct choice) who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Your translation:
Rom 8:21 .....that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay........
I don't know everything, I gave many scriptures to prove God responds after man acts. I gave scripture on what God himself said about how he responds to man.
The question is........... when was everything made subject to vanity, and not by choice. This would give a strong indication that God did plan for things to turn out as they did from the start.
The problem with this is that it contradicts all the other scriptures I posted. That can't be so.
So why is the whole creature subject to bondage? Why is it God subjected it to this? We know the solutions is Jesus, or being a Child of God. We know the Law brought the curse of the law, for no man could follow it.
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
The vanity, death, decay, corruption started with Adam's sin. Death came over those who even did not sin. (Not willingly) God did this by his reasoning, subjecting the whole earth to corruption-Decay under Adam's transgression, for all came from Adam.
Before Adam's sin, everything was awesome on the earth, minus Satan running around of course,which Adam was given charge to protect, and failed.
Jesus Is Lord.
El Hombre viejo
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Ok I'm open... how do you arrive at this conclusion?
I see it as Adam subjecting the world to vanity not God. Adam made his choice while he was still uncorrupted by sin. His thinking was clear when he made his decision. Being the like figure of him who was to come, he willingly gave his own life to save his wife, therefore subjecting the whole creation to bondage in hope that God would save them. Just as Abraham reasoned that God was able to raise Isaac from the dead if he sacrificed him (per Hebrews). God followed through with his original plan of saving those who would believe in him full well knowing that he would at a certain point in history send his only begotten son to pay the price of sin for those who receive God as God.
Gary
Chapter two is an exploded view of day 6 of creation. We see the events of that day unfold before us. God planted a garden. God formed Adam from the dust of the ground. God instructed Adam what he could and could not eat. Then God made Eve from Adam. At some point after God made Eve he said to 'them' a blessing, be fruitful and multiply. I don't know whether this was before or after the fall but I believe it to be after due to the fact that before the fall they did not even know they were naked and this was a piece of information that they would need to have if they were going to multiply.
Gary
El Hombre viejo
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If that's true, my friend, then we are talking of the same event. At the same time.
Yes, we are. Just nailing down the order by which things were spoken. The first being a law. The last a blessing even though they had broken Gods law.
Brother Mike
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Who did what?
gdemoss
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him (God?, we will believe God is the correct choice) who hath subjected the same in hope,
Adam might fit there, but Adam gave us no hope but death and destruction by his actions. It was God that gave his son, he Brought the hope. Adam brought death on the planet, and if not for Adam we would be much further than we are now, and in fellowship with God's son not having him go to the cross and die in our place. The Law would also not have to be imputed against us, but with Satan in control of what God gave Adam, there had to be a law.
and I would definitely need to see scripture about Adam saving his wife, If I recall, it was Adam who Blamed Eve and God. Adam was trying to save his own skin.
"This women you gave me" (Gen 3:12)
Jesus is Lord.
gdemoss
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him (God?, we will believe God is the correct choice) who hath subjected the same in hope,
Adam might fit there, but Adam gave us no hope but death and destruction by his actions. It was God that gave his son, he Brought the hope. Adam brought death on the planet, and if not for Adam we would be much further than we are now, and in fellowship with God's son not having him go to the cross and die in our place. The Law would also not have to be imputed against us, but with Satan in control of what God gave Adam, there had to be a law.
and I would definitely need to see scripture about Adam saving his wife, If I recall, it was Adam who Blamed Eve and God. Adam was trying to save his own skin.
"This women you gave me" (Gen 3:12)
Jesus is Lord.
It is all a matter of perspective. I used to see it as Adam blaming God for giving him Eve too. I have since seen it as Adam just giving God an honest account of what happened. The scripture of Adam saving his wife is the one that says that he was the like figure of him who was to come, referring to Christ. Romans 5:14 My perspective of the scriptures has changed as I have. The more I become like Christ the more the scripture becomes clear regarding motives and such the like.
Peace in Christ the Lord,
Gary
Brother Mike
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motives.
I guess I need to work on understanding motives and becoming more Christ like, because I just don't see it.
Jesus Is Lord.
I guess I need to work on understanding motives and becoming more Christ like, because I just don't see it.
Jesus Is Lord.
Mike, I said something about a year ago that I never dreamed the impact of. I said that if a person wanted to understand what a person meant when they wrote something, they needed to know the author. My reward for diligently seeking after God and doing everything that I have perceived him to have commanded has been more revelation of himself unto me. I know that I have much more to learn and continue to adhere to the commands of God, but it is his work. He reveals, I receive and respond accordingly. Although God does not tempt man with evil he does temper the amount of temptation we are submitted too. In this way he can use evil to refine us. He allowed Jesus to be tempted and in Revelation we see Jesus has feet of brass from being in the refining fire.
May the Lord bless you every time you respond to his word with obedience. As he has said, be careful with what measure you hear. Those who hear will be given more and those who don't even that which they seem to have will be taken from them.
Peace,
Gary
Brother Mike,
If you believe God did indeed create everything and that he holds the future then you will know that happened, was meant to happen.
How do you come to the conclusion that God changed his mind? when there is no evidence in the bible that he did actually change his mind as you said. Am struggling to understand your view.
Jonah 3:9-10,
" Who can tell of God will turn and repent and turn alway from fierce anger, that we perish not? 10 And God saw their works that he turned from their way and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto and he did not ".
This does not imply that God changed his mind, or else this would make God look like he didn't know what he was doing in the place place, but he did. You are looking at it in a man's way today. The word " Repent" in the original hebrew language meant " To be sorry for something", therefore being "sorry" does not necessarily change has God repented=felt sorry with man's sin because he knew what was to come for him.God felt mercy.
Malachi 3:6, says
" I the lord do not change so you, O descendants of Jacob are not destroyed"
James 1:17,
" Every good and perfect gift is from above,coming down from the father of down from the father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows" God is sinless, without fault.If he is sinless why would he have the same repentance as man who has sinned?
Numbers 23:19
" God is not a man that he should lie, nor a son of man that he should change his mind.Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?". Indeed scripture is scripture. Not at all, he does not change.God is unchanging and unchangeable. He mapped everything. Everything with kings, pharaoh etc that ever happened.
If you say he changed his mind, it's as if he made mistakes,his first plan had failed then moved on to plan B.No. God did not like man's sinfulness that's why he destroyed so many people who disobeyed. Roman 6:23, states that the punishment for sin is death. Again, it is man's choosing, his will to sin that separates us from God. A man can not hold God, this too he planned. He knew it all, that we would have a choice and whosoever confesses his sins would be spared.
God spared the people of Nineveh in Jonah,they turned to God. The people he destroyed in the bible didn't turn to God but God already knew about this. God always knew what he was going to do and he knows what he needs to do to make humanity to fulfill his perfect plan.
Isaiah 46:10-11
" ...decaring the end from the beginning, from the past things which were not done,saying,my purpose shall stand and I will do all my pleasure...what I have said that will I do"
- The city of nineveh was threathened with destruction by God, knowing that it would cause them to turn away from their sins.
- God threatened Israel with destruction knowing that mosses would go and start interceding and praying.He created the universe, surely he knows everything?
God does not regret his decisions he made at any time, but that he was saddened(Genesis 6:6) by some of things man does in response to his own decisions.His actions are consistent with his word in response to our actions.
He is all knowing, merciful,all powerful,righteous and loving for sending Jesus Christ.
If you believe God did indeed create everything and that he holds the future then you will know that happened, was meant to happen.
How do you come to the conclusion that God changed his mind? when there is no evidence in the bible that he did actually change his mind as you said. Am struggling to understand your view.
Jonah 3:9-10,
" Who can tell of God will turn and repent and turn alway from fierce anger, that we perish not? 10 And God saw their works that he turned from their way and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto and he did not ".
This does not imply that God changed his mind, or else this would make God look like he didn't know what he was doing in the place place, but he did. You are looking at it in a man's way today. The word " Repent" in the original hebrew language meant " To be sorry for something", therefore being "sorry" does not necessarily change has God repented=felt sorry with man's sin because he knew what was to come for him.God felt mercy.
Malachi 3:6, says
" I the lord do not change so you, O descendants of Jacob are not destroyed"
James 1:17,
" Every good and perfect gift is from above,coming down from the father of down from the father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows" God is sinless, without fault.If he is sinless why would he have the same repentance as man who has sinned?
Numbers 23:19
" God is not a man that he should lie, nor a son of man that he should change his mind.Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?". Indeed scripture is scripture. Not at all, he does not change.God is unchanging and unchangeable. He mapped everything. Everything with kings, pharaoh etc that ever happened.
If you say he changed his mind, it's as if he made mistakes,his first plan had failed then moved on to plan B.No. God did not like man's sinfulness that's why he destroyed so many people who disobeyed. Roman 6:23, states that the punishment for sin is death. Again, it is man's choosing, his will to sin that separates us from God. A man can not hold God, this too he planned. He knew it all, that we would have a choice and whosoever confesses his sins would be spared.
God spared the people of Nineveh in Jonah,they turned to God. The people he destroyed in the bible didn't turn to God but God already knew about this. God always knew what he was going to do and he knows what he needs to do to make humanity to fulfill his perfect plan.
Isaiah 46:10-11
" ...decaring the end from the beginning, from the past things which were not done,saying,my purpose shall stand and I will do all my pleasure...what I have said that will I do"
- The city of nineveh was threathened with destruction by God, knowing that it would cause them to turn away from their sins.
- God threatened Israel with destruction knowing that mosses would go and start interceding and praying.He created the universe, surely he knows everything?
God does not regret his decisions he made at any time, but that he was saddened(Genesis 6:6) by some of things man does in response to his own decisions.His actions are consistent with his word in response to our actions.
He is all knowing, merciful,all powerful,righteous and loving for sending Jesus Christ.
Gary, True yes he knows all things but we have no idea.
Thiscrosshurts
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Thank you for taking me seriously enough to look into that.
I never studied what election actually is so I can't comment on that.
I absolutely agree that ALL scripture must fit together.
There are many pitfalls though because these things are revealed to children and are hidden from the wise of this world.
I agree Brother Mike,what a snake that Adam was,huh?
Why else would the Lamb of God have been slain from the foundation of the world?
I respectfully disagree it all fits perfectly if you see it from the right angle.You may have a few sacred cows standing in the way though.
I can't answer on all the scripture you posted but I believe I can explain most.
I know you won't like my answer:
Romans 8:19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed.
I included 8:19 because I feel it is a key to understanding.Explaining myself would take some time.
Consider this:
The way snake anti venom is made is to run it through a large animal like a horse.The horse won't die from a small amount but the horses blood will form a resistance and the horses blood produces the anti venom.You should study the process its fascinating.
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Brother Mike
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scriptures do not contradict.
lilyR:
We never add to the Word, or diminish the Word, but take every word mentioned as true. Jesus said not one Jot shall pass away, the Jot being the smallest of characters.
Please know I did not just take a few obscure scriptures in attempts to make them fit a belief, I posted many of them.
We just can't say...... Well, God already knew what the outcome would be, he just put that in his word to show this or that.
That would be those Sacred cows in the way.
Exo 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
(repented means to be sorry, counsel yourself,regret, change)
There are no scriptures that support God dealing with man on Predestined knowledge. There are lots of Scriptures where God has a plan, and man messes it up. There are scriptures where God has a plan for the Creation as a Whole that can not be changed or messed up.
There is a difference from God speaking something and it must always happen, to God knowing or having a predestined plan that can not be changed.
Who God is, His Character and Nature:
As Children of God, Satan has done his best to hide God's real nature from us. He hides the fact that God can only believe the best and hope the best for us. He has tried to hide the fact that God has never set anyone up to fail, but to succeed. Satan would like us to think that whatever happens must be God's Will, and nothing we can do about it. This gives Satan lots of room to breath. It's time to take the oxygen away!!!
Scripture is very clear on how God deals with man. It's not by some set path or predestined knowledge. It's God's perfect Plan given to man. God does not make mistakes.
God Speaking:
Jer 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
Mans outcome is based on what HE does, not what God Planed and predestined. God's Plan was great and perfect, and he expects man to follow it.
Jer 21:14 But I will punish you according to the fruit of your doings, saith the LORD: and I will kindle a fire in the forest thereof, and it shall devour all things round about it.
Eze 36:19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
Zec 1:6 But my words and my statutes, which I commanded my servants the prophets, did they not take hold of your fathers? and they returned and said, Like as the LORD of hosts thought to do unto us, according to our ways, and according to our doings, so hath he dealt with us.
God is not Happy with having to change is perfect plan for man:
Jer 15:6 Thou hast forsaken me, saith the LORD, thou art gone backward: therefore will I stretch out my hand against thee, and destroy thee; I am weary with repenting.
Having to change his plan, normally means man disobeyed him, He takes no pleasure in the death of the Wicked.
Back to Saul:
1Sa 15:11 It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.
Why did God wish he had not made Saul King? It certainly was not because He made a mistake, He said it was Saul that disobeyed him.
============================================================================
LillyR:
Numbers 23:19
Balaam said this, and though God did not change his mind, Balaam did against what God had said and lost his life.
I can also show you where God said he would not repent of his choice to punish, but later on, he did change his mind.
Pharaoh:
You missed what I said about this.
Here at Talk Jesus we need to grow in the Word, we get removed from our normal denominational thinking and really get into scriptures that others won't touch as they can't explain them. We don't do that here. My hope is that everyone continues to grow in the Word, breaking any denominational Cloud that may hinder.
Jesus is Lord.
lilyR:
Here is the issue LilyR: As Thiscrosshurts mentioned, we have to run over some sacred cows. I posted many scriptures where if you go back and read them, showing clearly that God did change his mind. This clearly indicates God always had a successful Plan B. I also posted showing where God himself said he wishes he would not have done this. Such as make Saul king, or create man. God said that himself.
We never add to the Word, or diminish the Word, but take every word mentioned as true. Jesus said not one Jot shall pass away, the Jot being the smallest of characters.
Please know I did not just take a few obscure scriptures in attempts to make them fit a belief, I posted many of them.
We just can't say...... Well, God already knew what the outcome would be, he just put that in his word to show this or that.
That would be those Sacred cows in the way.
Exo 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
(repented means to be sorry, counsel yourself,regret, change)
There are no scriptures that support God dealing with man on Predestined knowledge. There are lots of Scriptures where God has a plan, and man messes it up. There are scriptures where God has a plan for the Creation as a Whole that can not be changed or messed up.
There is a difference from God speaking something and it must always happen, to God knowing or having a predestined plan that can not be changed.
Who God is, His Character and Nature:
As Children of God, Satan has done his best to hide God's real nature from us. He hides the fact that God can only believe the best and hope the best for us. He has tried to hide the fact that God has never set anyone up to fail, but to succeed. Satan would like us to think that whatever happens must be God's Will, and nothing we can do about it. This gives Satan lots of room to breath. It's time to take the oxygen away!!!
Scripture is very clear on how God deals with man. It's not by some set path or predestined knowledge. It's God's perfect Plan given to man. God does not make mistakes.
God Speaking:
Jer 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
Mans outcome is based on what HE does, not what God Planed and predestined. God's Plan was great and perfect, and he expects man to follow it.
Jer 21:14 But I will punish you according to the fruit of your doings, saith the LORD: and I will kindle a fire in the forest thereof, and it shall devour all things round about it.
Eze 36:19 And I scattered them among the heathen, and they were dispersed through the countries: according to their way and according to their doings I judged them.
Zec 1:6 But my words and my statutes, which I commanded my servants the prophets, did they not take hold of your fathers? and they returned and said, Like as the LORD of hosts thought to do unto us, according to our ways, and according to our doings, so hath he dealt with us.
God is not Happy with having to change is perfect plan for man:
Jer 15:6 Thou hast forsaken me, saith the LORD, thou art gone backward: therefore will I stretch out my hand against thee, and destroy thee; I am weary with repenting.
Having to change his plan, normally means man disobeyed him, He takes no pleasure in the death of the Wicked.
Back to Saul:
1Sa 15:11 It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.
Why did God wish he had not made Saul King? It certainly was not because He made a mistake, He said it was Saul that disobeyed him.
============================================================================
LillyR:
He never changes, and he said tithe right under that also, never Changing means his mercy endures forever as I have shown. If he chooses not to destroy something after he said he would, his mercy has not changed, nor his nature.
Sorry in Hebrew does mean to be sorry for, it also means to regret or consul yourself. However in this case he was not sorry for their sin, He was sorry for the evil he had planed for them, and changed his mind, read the scripture again.
Numbers 23:19
Balaam said this, and though God did not change his mind, Balaam did against what God had said and lost his life.
I can also show you where God said he would not repent of his choice to punish, but later on, he did change his mind.
Pharaoh:
You missed what I said about this.
Here at Talk Jesus we need to grow in the Word, we get removed from our normal denominational thinking and really get into scriptures that others won't touch as they can't explain them. We don't do that here. My hope is that everyone continues to grow in the Word, breaking any denominational Cloud that may hinder.
Jesus is Lord.
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