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And when You Die Your 1st Stop Ain't Heaven I don't care what you Believe, or What they told You. you are going to the grave

You're talking about context yet jumping all over the Bible.
No, I quoted the context (John 3), and used other portions of scripture (Isaiah 28:10,13; 1 Corinthians 2:13), which speak to similar things to help you about the context we are speaking about (John 3). The entire NT is written in such a way. Paul used this method, Peter, James, John, etc. For instance, see Hebrew 1, quoting from several OT texts (Psalms 45, 102, etc), to explain the context of what was being said in the first verses.
 
oh:eyes: so, Enoch, Moses and Elijah all were in Heaven before Jesus was born, from the womb of Mary, before HE died on the Cross, and before HE rose from the Grave, Then He ascended into heaven and sat down on The Throne. then that means "Mary's Baby" arrived in 4th place into Heaven. The other 3 got there before HE DID. Something don't smell right.
Why do you think it (the explanation of scripture and texts I gave in evidence) doesn't "smell right"?

Pre-eminence doesn't always deal with 'first place' in order of time or even place. Enoch, Moses and Elijah are all types of Christ Jesus, and even represent the Second coming of Jesus. Enoch, represents those taken before the destruction of the world (flood of water, and so flood of fire to come). Elijah represents those taken alive at the second coming without seeing (experiencing) the first death, and Moses those who receive a resurrection at the second coming without seeing (experiencing) the second death. The Gospels Matthew, Mark, Luke and Epistle of Peter bear this out, along with Paul in Romans, and Jude in Jude, along with Genesis (Moses), 2 Kings 2 and Hebrews and Revelation (John). For instance, how many kings were over Israel, before the true King of Israel came?
 
No, I quoted the context (John 3), and used other portions of scripture (Isaiah 28:10,13; 1 Corinthians 2:13), which speak to similar things to help you about the context we are speaking about (John 3). The entire NT is written in such a way. Paul used this method, Peter, James, John, etc. For instance, see Hebrew 1, quoting from several OT texts (Psalms 45, 102, etc), to explain the context of what was being said in the first verses.
I don't have an issue with using other passages. It's just that you've been harping on the context of John 3. You said I misquoted the passage and then relied on other passages to prove your interpretation of the context of John 3. I understand that other passages speak of heavenly things. but just posting passages without commentary doesn't show me how you understand them. I'm pretty sure you and I understand these passages differently. Therefore, commentary really is needed to make the point.
 
As you will. I will be refraining from further conversation with you on this subject (John 3) in this thread.
Aren't you going to explain to me why you reject it? Read the passage. In John 3 Jesus is speaking in the first person all the way up to John 3:13. Then there's a switch to the Son of Man and the second person He. The second person indicates someone other than the speaker.
 
The Jews, who kept the "oracles of God", believed that Elijah was in Heaven (along with Enoch and Moses).

Mat_27:49 The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.

Mar 15:35 And some of them that stood by, when they heard it, said, Behold, he calleth Elias.
Mar 15:36 And one ran and filled a spunge full of vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink, saying, Let alone; let us see whether Elias will come to take him down.

The disciples believed that Elijah and Moses were in Heaven, in glory:

Luk_9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
Luk 9:31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

2Pe_1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Elisha knew that Elijah could never be found on earth again (and didn't even want the sons of the prophets to go look for him on earth), after being "taken (caught) him up" (2 Kings 2:16), "went up", into heaven" (2 Kings 2:11), "taken from thee" (2 Kings 2:10), "taken away from thee" (2 Kings 2:9), "take away" (2 Kings 2:5), "take away" (2 Kings 2:3), "take up", "into Heaven" (2 Kings 2:1):

Consider the same words:

Act_1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
Act_1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
About 15 years after Elijah was taken up in the chariot he wrote a letter to the king of Israel. Wherever he went he was still alive and on earth.

9 Then Jehoram went forth with his princes, and all his chariots with him: and he rose up by night, and smote the Edomites which compassed him in, and the captains of the chariots.
10 So the Edomites revolted from under the hand of Judah unto this day. The same time also did Libnah revolt from under his hand; because he had forsaken the LORD God of his fathers.
11 Moreover he made high places in the mountains of Judah, and caused the inhabitants of Jerusalem to commit fornication, and compelled Judah thereto.
12 And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah, (2 Chr. 21:9-12 KJV)


The apostles knew what happened at the Transfiguration was a vision because Jesus told them it was.

3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. (Matt. 17:3-9 KJV)


According to Paul Enoch didn't go to Heaven. He was translated or transposed.

5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. (Heb. 11:1 KJV)

According to Paul he was transposed. It means to swap two things. We see that the same thing happened to Phillip after he baptized the Eunuch.

35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached in all the cities, till he came to Caesarea. (Acts 8:35-40 KJV)


Further down in that same chapter Paul says these all died. That included Enoch.
 
About 15 years after Elijah was taken up in the chariot he wrote a letter to the king of Israel. Wherever he went he was still alive and on earth.

9 Then Jehoram went forth with his princes, and all his chariots with him: and he rose up by night, and smote the Edomites which compassed him in, and the captains of the chariots.
10 So the Edomites revolted from under the hand of Judah unto this day. The same time also did Libnah revolt from under his hand; because he had forsaken the LORD God of his fathers.
11 Moreover he made high places in the mountains of Judah, and caused the inhabitants of Jerusalem to commit fornication, and compelled Judah thereto.
12 And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah, (2 Chr. 21:9-12 KJV)

...
You have a misunderstanding of 2 Chronicles and its timing:

In 1 Kings 22:50 and 2 Kings 1:17 a "Jehoram" had become King of Judah two years before another King "Jehoram" became King of Israel. We read later in 2 Kings 2:11, wherein the "Jehoram of Israel" was reigning that then Elijah ascended up into Heaven.

Let us consider the texts and notice that the Bible gives no specific date for Elijah's translation in the Heavens. We can know that it happened at some place during the reign of King "Jehoram Of Israel". Yet, it was the King "Jehoram of Judah" who received the letter from Elijah, and he had already been reigning two years before the King "Jehoram of Israel" came on the scene. Elijah wrote the letter to the King "Jehoram of Judah" before his ascension at 2 Kings 2:11. Additionally, as a final thought, it is also possible (though the first explanation from scripture is where I stand) Elijah can write a letter while on earth, and after he has been taken up into Heaven, have that letter sent (post being taken up) by Elisha or another son of the prophets to the king. Elijah doesn't have to be around to have sent the letter which he wrote earlier. Time capsules work this way, in which messages are left behind, and others find them. It would be like getting Paul's or Peter's last epistle from them (mail is slower in their days, man walking, horse, donkey, camel or pigeon, etc), after they were dead and buried.

In 2 Chronicles 21:19 let us consider that the King "Jehoram of Judah" was already in dire straits two years before he died horribly in the 8th year of his reign. By this we can Biblically conclude that Elijah's Letter and also his Translation into the Heavens happened between the King "Jehoram of Judah's" 2nd to 6th year of reign.

Kings of Israel & Judah

File:Genealogy of the kings of Israel and Judah.png - Wikipedia

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...enealogy_of_the_kings_of_Israel_and_Judah.png

We may also consider the ramifications of Elijah ascending and being "taken from" Elisha. Elisha then asks for a "double portion" of the very Holy Spirit that was upon Elijah himself. If Elijah was to merely return [back to earth for a longer stay] why all of the scene? Afterall Elisha would not leave Elijah for anything...if Elijah came back down to earth then, Elisha would have ran unto him [Elijah] no matter what land he be in ["I will not leave thee" was always his [Elisha's] phrase], for news would have spread abroad at that. Yet we know from the scriptures that Elisha ["saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.", the very symbol of anguish, mourning and heartache, over someone they would never see again in this world.]

We can know by the words of Elisha to the Prophets that wanted to search for Elijah on earth, but he knew where Elijah had been taken, for he himself had seen it ["into Heaven"], "And they said unto him, Behold now, there be with thy servants fifty strong men; let them go, we pray thee, and seek thy master: lest peradventure the Spirit of the LORD hath taken him up, and cast him upon some mountain, or into some valley. And he said, Ye shall not send." [Elisha said, "Ye shall not send."] It was only after the begged and pleaded until he was embarrassed that he let them go look. And when they came back from their searching, Elisha said, "Did I not say unto you, Go not?", for Elisha knew Elijah was taken up "into Heaven" and was not coming back.

Are we not to believe the scriptures in what they plainly say? Or shall we be as the little children who mocked at the idea of Elijah ascending into Heaven and taunted Elisha...

"...there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head."

Also consider the typology of the 2nd Advent that becomes ruined if Elijah ever died. He represents all of the righteous people who will be living at the 2nd Advent and "caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." So if Elijah does not actually get taken into Heaven [where GOD dwells] but rather only floats around in the air for some time before being set down 'upon some mountain' on earth somewhere and later dies, the 2nd Advent presents absolutely no case for anyone to go up either. Type and antitype are parallel.
 
Why do you think it (the explanation of scripture and texts I gave in evidence) doesn't "smell right"?

Pre-eminence doesn't always deal with 'first place' in order of time or even place. Enoch, Moses and Elijah are all types of Christ Jesus, and even represent the Second coming of Jesus. Enoch, represents those taken before the destruction of the world (flood of water, and so flood of fire to come). Elijah represents those taken alive at the second coming without seeing (experiencing) the first death, and Moses those who receive a resurrection at the second coming without seeing (experiencing) the second death. The Gospels Matthew, Mark, Luke and Epistle of Peter bear this out, along with Paul in Romans, and Jude in Jude, along with Genesis (Moses), 2 Kings 2 and Hebrews and Revelation (John). For instance, how many kings were over Israel, before the true King of Israel came?
Because it will not hold up to "Textual Criticism" even by the slightest "exegesis'. "the dog just will not hunt". Even a "Biblical Motif" will not fare. But it could possible fall into the range of "Types and Shadows" concerning Enoch, Moses and Elijah caught up into clouds as Jesus was. Yes the sky is considered the Heavens. But I don't think, " Heaven" is up in the air! I don't think you really go up, like earthly up. I believe another realm. our words are "anthropomorphic"Language in communicating with GOD. So in explaining Biblical terminology concerning biblical events, universal Biblical terminology gives us better insight in conveying "schools of thoughts" "SnapShoTs' example: "Apostles Creed".

PS one thing is good, if one understand the structure of The Hebrew language and how it is written and spoken, It is a great aid, and the entrance of The koine Greek. Then one will have a good flavor of the English translation into the "biblical Text" and that is also a gift from GOD! If a man lacks wisdom, let him ask.
 
You have a misunderstanding of 2 Chronicles and its timing:

In 1 Kings 22:50 and 2 Kings 1:17 a "Jehoram" had become King of Judah two years before another King "Jehoram" became King of Israel. We read later in 2 Kings 2:11, wherein the "Jehoram of Israel" was reigning that then Elijah ascended up into Heaven.

Let us consider the texts and notice that the Bible gives no specific date for Elijah's translation in the Heavens. We can know that it happened at some place during the reign of King "Jehoram Of Israel". Yet, it was the King "Jehoram of Judah" who received the letter from Elijah, and he had already been reigning two years before the King "Jehoram of Israel" came on the scene. Elijah wrote the letter to the King "Jehoram of Judah" before his ascension at 2 Kings 2:11. Additionally, as a final thought, it is also possible (though the first explanation from scripture is where I stand) Elijah can write a letter while on earth, and after he has been taken up into Heaven, have that letter sent (post being taken up) by Elisha or another son of the prophets to the king. Elijah doesn't have to be around to have sent the letter which he wrote earlier. Time capsules work this way, in which messages are left behind, and others find them. It would be like getting Paul's or Peter's last epistle from them (mail is slower in their days, man walking, horse, donkey, camel or pigeon, etc), after they were dead and buried.

In 2 Chronicles 21:19 let us consider that the King "Jehoram of Judah" was already in dire straits two years before he died horribly in the 8th year of his reign. By this we can Biblically conclude that Elijah's Letter and also his Translation into the Heavens happened between the King "Jehoram of Judah's" 2nd to 6th year of reign.

Kings of Israel & Judah

File:Genealogy of the kings of Israel and Judah.png - Wikipedia

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...enealogy_of_the_kings_of_Israel_and_Judah.png

We may also consider the ramifications of Elijah ascending and being "taken from" Elisha. Elisha then asks for a "double portion" of the very Holy Spirit that was upon Elijah himself. If Elijah was to merely return [back to earth for a longer stay] why all of the scene? Afterall Elisha would not leave Elijah for anything...if Elijah came back down to earth then, Elisha would have ran unto him [Elijah] no matter what land he be in ["I will not leave thee" was always his [Elisha's] phrase], for news would have spread abroad at that. Yet we know from the scriptures that Elisha ["saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.", the very symbol of anguish, mourning and heartache, over someone they would never see again in this world.]

We can know by the words of Elisha to the Prophets that wanted to search for Elijah on earth, but he knew where Elijah had been taken, for he himself had seen it ["into Heaven"], "And they said unto him, Behold now, there be with thy servants fifty strong men; let them go, we pray thee, and seek thy master: lest peradventure the Spirit of the LORD hath taken him up, and cast him upon some mountain, or into some valley. And he said, Ye shall not send." [Elisha said, "Ye shall not send."] It was only after the begged and pleaded until he was embarrassed that he let them go look. And when they came back from their searching, Elisha said, "Did I not say unto you, Go not?", for Elisha knew Elijah was taken up "into Heaven" and was not coming back.

Are we not to believe the scriptures in what they plainly say? Or shall we be as the little children who mocked at the idea of Elijah ascending into Heaven and taunted Elisha...

"...there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head."

Also consider the typology of the 2nd Advent that becomes ruined if Elijah ever died. He represents all of the righteous people who will be living at the 2nd Advent and "caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." So if Elijah does not actually get taken into Heaven [where GOD dwells] but rather only floats around in the air for some time before being set down 'upon some mountain' on earth somewhere and later dies, the 2nd Advent presents absolutely no case for anyone to go up either. Type and antitype are parallel.
I do huh? You're capitalizing heaven. The Hebrew actually says heavens. I think you're missing the point. All of the examples are shown not to be in Heaven. However, as I posed earlier, you're arguing from a false premise. You haven't established that people go to Heaven.
 
The apostles knew what happened at the Transfiguration was a vision because Jesus told them it was.

3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead. (Matt. 17:3-9 KJV)
'Vision'? "οραμα" Simply means that which is seen, which can be by the eyes or with the mind/heart, and thus with the eye of the mind. For instance:

Act 7:31 When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him,

Did Moses actually see with his own eyes the burning bush, or did he only imagine it in the mind? Same word, "οραμα".

Notice the words:

Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see ["ιδωσιν" [G1492], idosin, from eido, meaning to look upon] the Son of man coming [see 2 Peter 1:16] in his kingdom.
Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared ["ωφθησαν" [G3700], ophthesan, from optanomai, means to see with the eyes] unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Mat 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
Mat 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
Mat 17:6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
Mat 17:7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
Mat 17:8 And when they had lifted up their eyes ['επαραντες δε τους οφθαλμους αυτων", again the word "ophthalmous" is used, meaning eyes], they saw ["ειδον" [G1492], eidon, from eido, meaning to look upon] no man, save Jesus only.
Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision ["οραμα" [G3705], [h]orama, meaning to see] to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
Mat 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
Mat 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
Mat 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Mat 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Mar 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen ["ιδωσιν" [G1492], idosin, from eido, meaning to look upon] the kingdom of God come with power [see 2 Peter 1:16].
Mar 9:2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
Mar 9:3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
Mar 9:4 And there appeared ["ωφθη" [G3700], ophthe, from optanomai, means to see with the eyes] unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
Mar 9:5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
Mar 9:6 For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid.
Mar 9:7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
Mar 9:8 And suddenly, when they had looked round about ["περιβλεψαμενοι" [G4017], periblepsamenoi from periblepo, meaning to look all around], they saw ["ειδον" [G1492], eidon, from eido, meaning to look upon] no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.
Mar 9:9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen ["ειδον" [G1492], eidon, from eido, meaning to look upon], till the Son of man were risen from the dead.
Mar 9:10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.
Mar 9:11 And they asked him, saying, Why say the scribes that Elias must first come?
Mar 9:12 And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought.
Mar 9:13 But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him.

Luk 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see ["ιδωσιν" [G1492], idosin, from eido, meaning to look upon] the kingdom of God.
Luk 9:28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
Luk 9:29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
Luk 9:30 And, behold ["ιδου" [G2400, idou, to behold with the eyes, to see, to look upon], there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
Luk 9:31 Who appeared ["οφθεντες" [G3700], ophthentes, from optanomai, means to see with the eyes]] in glory [see 2 Peter 1:17], and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
Luk 9:32 But Peter and they that were [past tense] with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake ["διαγρηγορησαντες" [G12356], diagregoresantes, from diagregoreo, meaing to be fully awake], they saw ["ειδον" [G1492], eidon, from eido, meaning to look upon] his glory [see 2 Peter 1:17], and the two men that stood with him.
Luk 9:33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.
Luk 9:34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
Luk 9:35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
Luk 9:36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen ["εωρακασιν" [G3708], [h]eorakasin, from horao, meaning to stare at, see, look upon, witness, experience (with eyesight, mind, body, etc)].

2Pe 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses ["εποπται", [G2030], epoptai from epoptes, meaning one who looks upon] of his majesty.
2Pe 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
2Pe 1:18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

It was on the 7th day (after 6 days and before "about an" 8) that the Mount of Transfiguration took place.

Peter, in 2 Peter is contrasting his own eyewitness testimony at the mount of Transfiguration, his own eyesight there, to that of prophecy of the scripture, which is more sure than his own eyesight, since the eyes of a man might be deceived or be led astray, but God's prophetic word is always true and can never lie or deceive (Titus 1:2; Hebrews 6:18, etc). They saw with their eyes and heard with their ears. In scripture, this is known as being an awake 'vision' or 'sight' to behold, rather than a dream while asleep, but this is that which something is seen and heard while fully awake. (Luke 9:32). Several examples in scripture can be given in addition to this.

So, consider all of the words, in their context as used, and they being fully awake (and several translations into English translate it that way), and then seeing Moses and Elijah in "glory", which means resurrected and glorified immortal bodies (see Romans 5:14; Jude 1:9 for Moses, and see 2 Kings 2 for Elijah) of flesh and bones. They were no whispy aether, but flesh and bone glorified Moses and Elijah standing on the Mount of Transfiguration next to Jesus, which is why Peter wanted to build three Tabernacles on the spot. Even the voice of the Father with the clouds of Heaven were present there. They were not asleep, nor imagining it. They actually saw it with their own eyes and heard with the own ears.
 
I do huh?
Yes. As shown.

You're capitalizing heaven.
My preference, feel free to ignore that.

The Hebrew actually says heavens. ...
It is always plural in Hebrew (shamayim). There are several heavens (1) atmosphere where fowl fly, (2) where the sun, moon and stars exist, and (3) where God dwells in Paradise/Eden above. I even said in "the Heavens" several times. As for instance:

"... Let us consider the texts and notice that the Bible gives no specific date for Elijah's translation in the Heavens. ..."

"... can Biblically conclude that Elijah's Letter and also his Translation into the Heavens ..."

When Elijah is "taken up", it is into the "heavens" (plural), not merely this earth's atmosphere where the fowl fly. It is as Jesus, who goes up beyond the first, beyond the second (local Sol system) and up into the 3rd Heaven (Ephesians 4:10). So the plural actually works against you, not for you. It works for me, not against me.
 
Further down in that same chapter Paul says these all died. That included Enoch.
Actually, contextually, No. Paul in saying, that "these all died" refer to those he specifically says died (such as Hebrews 11:4, "being yet dead"), and the immediate context of vs 12, whom the pronoun "these" refer back to, as being "so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable", and (vs 15) "And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out" (the Israelites). The "all", is exclusive of Enoch, who Paul says specifically, "he should not see death". The context even goes on again (reiterating) from Abraham, to Isaac, to Jacob/Israel, to Joseph, to the Israelites in Egypt.
 
'Vision'? "οραμα" Simply means that which is seen, which can be by the eyes or with the mind/heart, and thus with the eye of the mind. For instance:

Act 7:31 When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him,

Did Moses actually see with his own eyes the burning bush, or did he only imagine it in the mind? Same word, "οραμα".

Notice the words:

Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see ["ιδωσιν" [G1492], idosin, from eido, meaning to look upon] the Son of man coming [see 2 Peter 1:16] in his kingdom.
Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared ["ωφθησαν" [G3700], ophthesan, from optanomai, means to see with the eyes] unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Mat 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
Mat 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
Mat 17:6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
Mat 17:7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
Mat 17:8 And when they had lifted up their eyes ['επαραντες δε τους οφθαλμους αυτων", again the word "ophthalmous" is used, meaning eyes], they saw ["ειδον" [G1492], eidon, from eido, meaning to look upon] no man, save Jesus only.
Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision ["οραμα" [G3705], [h]orama, meaning to see] to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.
Mat 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
Mat 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
Mat 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Mat 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

Mar 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen ["ιδωσιν" [G1492], idosin, from eido, meaning to look upon] the kingdom of God come with power [see 2 Peter 1:16].
Mar 9:2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
Mar 9:3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
Mar 9:4 And there appeared ["ωφθη" [G3700], ophthe, from optanomai, means to see with the eyes] unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
Mar 9:5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
Mar 9:6 For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid.
Mar 9:7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
Mar 9:8 And suddenly, when they had looked round about ["περιβλεψαμενοι" [G4017], periblepsamenoi from periblepo, meaning to look all around], they saw ["ειδον" [G1492], eidon, from eido, meaning to look upon] no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.
Mar 9:9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen ["ειδον" [G1492], eidon, from eido, meaning to look upon], till the Son of man were risen from the dead.
Mar 9:10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.
Mar 9:11 And they asked him, saying, Why say the scribes that Elias must first come?
Mar 9:12 And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought.
Mar 9:13 But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him.

Luk 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see ["ιδωσιν" [G1492], idosin, from eido, meaning to look upon] the kingdom of God.
Luk 9:28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray.
Luk 9:29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
Luk 9:30 And, behold ["ιδου" [G2400, idou, to behold with the eyes, to see, to look upon], there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
Luk 9:31 Who appeared ["οφθεντες" [G3700], ophthentes, from optanomai, means to see with the eyes]] in glory [see 2 Peter 1:17], and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.
Luk 9:32 But Peter and they that were [past tense] with him were heavy with sleep: and when they were awake ["διαγρηγορησαντες" [G12356], diagregoresantes, from diagregoreo, meaing to be fully awake], they saw ["ειδον" [G1492], eidon, from eido, meaning to look upon] his glory [see 2 Peter 1:17], and the two men that stood with him.
Luk 9:33 And it came to pass, as they departed from him, Peter said unto Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias: not knowing what he said.
Luk 9:34 While he thus spake, there came a cloud, and overshadowed them: and they feared as they entered into the cloud.
Luk 9:35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
Luk 9:36 And when the voice was past, Jesus was found alone. And they kept it close, and told no man in those days any of those things which they had seen ["εωρακασιν" [G3708], [h]eorakasin, from horao, meaning to stare at, see, look upon, witness, experience (with eyesight, mind, body, etc)].

2Pe 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses ["εποπται", [G2030], epoptai from epoptes, meaning one who looks upon] of his majesty.
2Pe 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
2Pe 1:18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

It was on the 7th day (after 6 days and before "about an" 8) that the Mount of Transfiguration took place.

Peter, in 2 Peter is contrasting his own eyewitness testimony at the mount of Transfiguration, his own eyesight there, to that of prophecy of the scripture, which is more sure than his own eyesight, since the eyes of a man might be deceived or be led astray, but God's prophetic word is always true and can never lie or deceive (Titus 1:2; Hebrews 6:18, etc). They saw with their eyes and heard with their ears. In scripture, this is known as being an awake 'vision' or 'sight' to behold, rather than a dream while asleep, but this is that which something is seen and heard while fully awake. (Luke 9:32). Several examples in scripture can be given in addition to this.

So, consider all of the words, in their context as used, and they being fully awake (and several translations into English translate it that way), and then seeing Moses and Elijah in "glory", which means resurrected and glorified immortal bodies (see Romans 5:14; Jude 1:9 for Moses, and see 2 Kings 2 for Elijah) of flesh and bones. They were no whispy aether, but flesh and bone glorified Moses and Elijah standing on the Mount of Transfiguration next to Jesus, which is why Peter wanted to build three Tabernacles on the spot. Even the voice of the Father with the clouds of Heaven were present there. They were not asleep, nor imagining it. They actually saw it with their own eyes and heard with the own ears.
You're going through a lot of trouble but aren't saying much. Of course the passages use the word see, that's what a vision is. The question is, was it real? The problem with your interpretation is that you have Moses and Elijah resurrected before Jesus died. Paul said that Jesus was the first born if the dead, not Moses or Elijah. It was real. It was a vision of the second coming.

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. (2 Peter 1:16

Tell me, how are they literally witnessing Christ's second coming before He even left from His first coming?
 
Actually, contextually, No. Paul in saying, that "these all died" refer to those he specifically says died (such as Hebrews 11:4, "being yet dead"), and the immediate context of vs 12, whom the pronoun "these" refer back to, as being "so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable", and (vs 15) "And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out" (the Israelites). The "all", is exclusive of Enoch, who Paul says specifically, "he should not see death". The context even goes on again (reiterating) from Abraham, to Isaac, to Jacob/Israel, to Joseph, to the Israelites in Egypt.
Remember when you said this in post 72?

"If you do not believe Jesus said it, in the midst of the conversation with Nicodemus, and have to resort to this type of faulty reasoning (as if it were an interpolation by John), I can not present any further evidence to you, for no matter what is presented, this same type of reasoning will discard all evidence contrary to your own a priori belief. In other words, you make up differing rules to suit your argument, which always are adjusted as needed to keep your a priori in tact, though when compared in every place that you do and do not do this, contradiction will be found"

I rest my case.

You keep trying to refute everything that's been said yet you've not made any attempt to establish you premise. Until you establish your premise everything you say is conjecture.
 
Greetings,

nice to see a hearty Bible study going on!

Grace for Grace, for He is Lord


Bless you ....><>
 
Where? It's equal speculation to say that they did die.
It's not speculation. Everyone dies. In Hebrews 11 Paul gives a list of people who through faith did many things. Enoch is in the list. Down towards the end of the chapter he says these all died not having received the promises.
 
Paul said that Jesus was the first born if the dead,
Read the context. "Firstborn from the dead" (πρωτοτοκος εκ των νεκρων) deals with "preeminence" (πρωτευων ), not in time or space, as the text does not say "first to be resurrected from the dead". I can show examples of firstborn having nothing to do with being the first (in time or place) to be born. Need examples?

“Firstborn” can literally mean the one 'who was first to be born', as in Genesis 10:15, 19:31,33,34,37, 22:21, 25:13, 27:19,32, 29:26, 35:23, 36:15, 38:6,7, 41:51, 43:33, 46:8, 48:14,18, 49:3; Exodus 4:23, 6:14, 11:5, 12:12,29, 13:2,13,15, 22:29, 34:20; Numbers 3:2,12,13,40,41,42,43,45,46,50, 8:16,17, 18:15, 33:4; Deuteronomy 21:15,16,17, 25:6; Joshua 6:26, 17:1; Judges 8:20; 1 Samuel 8:2, 14:49, 17:13; 2 Samuel 3:2; 1 Kings 16:34; 1 Chronicles 1:13,29, 2:3,13,25,27,42,50, 3:1,15, 4:4, 5:1,3, 6:28, 8:1,30,39, 9:5,31,36, 26:2,4; 2 Chronicles 21:3; Nehemiah 10:36; Psalms 78:51, 105:36, 135:8, 136:10; Micah 6:7; Matthew 1:25; Luke 2:7; Hebrews 11:28 KJB.

However, “first born” also carries another definition, in that it also means “the chief”, “set before” [placed ahead of, or instead of], “might”, and “beginning of strength”, “excellency of dignity”, “excellency of power”, “be greater”, “higher than the kings of the earth”, “the preeminence”:

Genesis 48:16 KJB - The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.​
Genesis 48:17 KJB - And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.​
Genesis 48:18 KJB - And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.​
Genesis 48:19 KJB - And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.​
Genesis 48:20 KJB - And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.​

Manasseh was literally the “firstborn”, the preeminence went unto the younger, Ephraim, and so he was “set … before ...” Manasseh, and Ephraim would be the “greater”.

Genesis 49:3 KJB - Reuben, thou art my firstborn, my might, and the beginning of my strength, the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power:​
1 Chronicles 5:1 KJB - Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.​

Reuben was literally the first to be born of Jacob/Israel, we see the words connected with “firstborn” in these texts is more than simply being first to be born, for though Reuben was this, he was still “Unstable as water ...” and would “... not excel” because of what he had done, and therefore that which would have been his by birthright, was “given unto” another, and was no longer “to be reckoned after the birthright”. Therefore the word “firstborn” was to mean more than simply first to be born, but was to carry with it all these, “... might, and the beginning of my strength, the excellency of dignity, and the excellency of power” and Reuben failed at this because of his actions.

Exodus 4:22 KJB - And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:​

Israel is called “firstborn”, yet we can know by scripture that Esau, and not Jacob [Israel], was the literal firstborn [Genesis 25:25-26 KJB], but in this instance we are dealing with the spiritual matter, since Jacob was the one that overcame with God, and prevailed, and so given a new name. We can also know by scripture that Jesus is the True Israel [Hosea 11:1 and Matthew 2:15 KJB].

Numbers 3:41 KJB - And thou shalt take the Levites for me (I am the LORD) instead of all the firstborn among the children of Israel; and the cattle of the Levites instead of all the firstlings among the cattle of the children of Israel.​
Numbers 3:42 KJB - And Moses numbered, as the LORD commanded him, all the firstborn among the children of Israel.​
Numbers 3:43 KJB - And all the firstborn males by the number of names, from a month old and upward, of those that were numbered of them, were twenty and two thousand two hundred and threescore and thirteen.​
Numbers 3:44 KJB - And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,​
Numbers 3:45 KJB - Take the Levites instead of all the firstborn among the children of Israel, and the cattle of the Levites instead of their cattle; and the Levites shall be mine: I am the LORD.​
Numbers 8:14 KJB - Thus shalt thou separate the Levites from among the children of Israel: and the Levites shall be mine.​
Numbers 8:15 KJB - And after that shall the Levites go in to do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation: and thou shalt cleanse them, and offer them for an offering.​
Numbers 8:16 KJB - For they are wholly given unto me from among the children of Israel; instead of such as open every womb, even instead of the firstborn of all the children of Israel, have I taken them unto me.​
Numbers 8:17 KJB - For all the firstborn of the children of Israel are mine, both man and beast: on the day that I smote every firstborn in the land of Egypt I sanctified them for myself.​
Numbers 8:18 KJB - And I have taken the Levites for all the firstborn of the children of Israel.​

The children of Israel rebelled, they forfeited their right as the 'firstborn', and so God took [“taken ... for”] the Levites “instead of” them.

Psalms 89:27 KJB - Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.​

David [Psalms 89:20 KJB] is called “firstborn”, yet we can know by scripture that David is actually the youngest son of Jesse [1 Samuel 16:10-11 KJB]. We can also see by the use in Psalms 89:27 KJB that “firstborn” is related to pre-eminence, in other words: “higher than the kings of the earth”. David was a type pointing to Christ [Luke 24:27; John 5:39 KJB]. The term “firstborn” in this instance does not actually mean first to be born, but rather “pre-eminent, first over all, special, chosen, headship, of blessing, chief” and it was God which would “make” it this way.

Jeremiah 31:9 KJB - They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.​

Ephraim is called “firstborn”, yet we can know by scripture that Manasseh was the literal “firstborn” of Joseph [Genesis 41:50-52 KJB], and yet God also called Israel his “firstborn”:

Exodus 4:22 KJB - And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:​
Hosea 11:1 KJB - When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.​
Matthew 2:15 KJB - And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.​

The reference to “Israel”, being the “firstborn”, in Hosea and Matthew 2:15 KJB is actually a reference to Jesus Christ.

1 Chronicles 26:10 KJB - Also Hosah, of the children of Merari, had sons; Simri the chief, (for though he was not the firstborn, yet his father made him the chief;)

Persons can be “made” “firstborn”, in otherwords “the chief” [the pre-eminent], without actually being the literally “firstborn”.

Even in Job 18:12-13 [“firstborn of death”] and in Isaiah 14:30 [“firstborn of the poor”], the term “firstborn” in these instances is also being used in a figurative sense. Like “disease and decay” or “chiefest of the poor”, the most poorest of them.

So, in considering the word “Firstborn”, what does this mean when it refers to Jesus in Colossians 1:15? Context tells us.

The actual Greek word for “first created” is “protoktioti”, but Paul [a Jew, raised a Pharisee] chooses carefully instead, by aide of the Holy Spirit Himself [2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:21 KJB], the Greek word for the “chosen” headship connotation: “prototokos” [“Firstborn”, see also Hebrews 1:6 KJB “first begotten into the world”; Revelation 1:5 “first begotten of the dead”]. For we are to inherit all things through Jesus Christ, for notice:

2 Corinthians 1:20 KJB - For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.​

So when we consider again the usage in Colossians 1:15 KJB, let us look at the immediate context to see if Paul meant “firstborn” in the sense of “headship and pre-eminence of promise” or “first created”.

We go to Colossians 1:18 KJB:

Colossians 1:18 KJB - And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.​

Paul solves the issue for us, line upon line: “... head of the body … who is the beginning … have the preeminence.”

Now, consider the greater context of the whole of scripture, for Christ Jesus can be said to fulfill both meanings, in that not only is:

[1] Jesus is the “firstborn”, being the preeminent one:

Romans 9:5 KJB - Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.​
Colossians 1:16 KJB - For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:​
Colossians 2:10 KJB - And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:​
Ephesians 1:21 KJB - Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:​
Ephesians 1:22 KJB - And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,​
Ephesians 1:23 KJB - Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.​
Ephesians 3:9 KJB - And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:​
Ephesians 4:15 KJB - But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:​
Hebrews 7:26 KJB - For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;​
John 1:3 KJB - All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.​

[2] Jesus is also the “firstborn” of the Woman/Church:

Isaiah 9:6 KJB - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.​
Luke 2:11 KJB - For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.​
Hebrews 2:10 KJB - For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.​
Revelation 12:1 KJB - And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:​
Revelation 12:2 KJB - And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.​
Revelation 12:3 KJB - And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.​
Revelation 12:4 KJB - And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.​
Revelation 12:5 KJB - And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.​
Revelation 12:13 KJB - And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.​

After this, how can any say that the Son [Jesus] is created or even first to be resurrected using that “firstborn” text?
 
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