An introduction

[liminal]

Hi,

Just thought I'd introduce myself.

Chances are I won't quite fit in here, but I thought I'd see.

I'm not agnostic.
I am an atheist (By the following definition: "atheism is the acceptance that there is no credible scientific or factually reliable evidence for the existence of a god, gods or the supernatural" taken from the Atheist Foundation of Australia)
I choose to believe in the person of Jesus, and by extension God. (note: my motivation for believing in God is not out of fear of hell)

So quick summary thus far: I actively don't believe there is any robust evidence for God, I do believe such evidence could in theory by obtainable, and I choose to believe in God anyway.

My interpretation of the Bible also errs towards non-literal. This occurs because I find that a non-literal interpretation stacks up better with my preference for data reliability.

As a result, I'm someone who attends Church regularly, but gets next to nothing out of it and dislikes the experience - as in the city where I am churches are either theologically conservative, too evangelical, or are very much 'emotion'/'feeling' based churches which I tend to find very painful to attend (or some combination of the 3). People at Church presume I'm just difficult in discussions with them, e.g. when speaking about prayer being answered.

Anyone in a similar position?

 

[agua]

Hi,

Just thought I'd introduce myself.

Chances are I won't quite fit in here, but I thought I'd see.

I'm not agnostic.
I am an atheist (By the following definition: "atheism is the acceptance that there is no credible scientific or factually reliable evidence for the existence of a god, gods or the supernatural" taken from the Atheist Foundation of Australia)
I choose to believe in the person of Jesus, and by extension God. (note: my motivation for believing in God is not out of fear of hell)

So quick summary thus far: I actively don't believe there is any robust evidence for God, I do believe such evidence could in theory by obtainable, and I choose to believe in God anyway.

My interpretation of the Bible also errs towards non-literal. This occurs because I find that a non-literal interpretation stacks up better with my preference for data reliability.

As a result, I'm someone who attends Church regularly, but gets next to nothing out of it and dislikes the experience - as in the city where I am churches are either theologically conservative, too evangelical, or are very much 'emotion'/'feeling' based churches which I tend to find very painful to attend (or some combination of the 3). People at Church presume I'm just difficult in discussions with them, e.g. when speaking about prayer being answered.

Anyone in a similar position?

G'day liminal,

God disagrees that there is no robust evidence of Himself.And so do I.
Look around you.

Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

I do understand it can be difficult to find a suitable church home.Remember attending church is also about giving encouragement to others and giving praise and worship to God.

Blessings.

 

[liminal]

Look around you.

The thing is, when I look around I don't see God's creation. It's probably been about 5 years since I've looked around and seen God's creation.

Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

I felt compelled to read this verse, and the surrounding verses. I read them with my partner, who is in a similar, albeit less extreme position with God.

Romans 1:18-23 (my thoughts are listed in red, inside brackets)
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can beknown about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them [This does not imply all people. Also consider the context, it is a specific letter to a specific group of people]. 20For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made [I genuinely find this bit hard to grasp - because, as I said before, I just don't see it]. So they are without excuse. 21For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened [And I think this verse clarify's the former - these were people who knew that God was God, and told him to get lost. They have no excuse because they knew. This suggests that verse may not be as relevant to the current issue as may have been implied]. 22Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of he immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. [ESV]
[/QUOTE]

I do understand it can be difficult to find a suitable church home.

Do you have any suggestions for this process? Or does anyone else?

Remember attending church is also about giving encouragement to others

Believe me, as difficult as I am, this is something I do do. It is something I find very hard not to do. But when someone tells me that God answers prayers because XYZ happened and can not entertain the possibility that it was a chance event, then I will beat them over the head (metaphorically, and less beating more of a probing), providing I know they are robust enough in their relationship with God to withstand such challenging.

and giving praise and worship to God.

You are talking to someone who does not find joy, or connection with God through contemporary acts of Church worship. Who does not do any high energy and high emotion activity, ever. I'm the very detached type, that is rarely in the present, never dwelling in the past, never thinking towards the future, but off on some tangent (note the hyperbole in this sentence).

Contemporary Christian worship does nothing for me. Then again, the kind of things that excite me are by most people's standards dull and boring.

 

[agua]

The thing is, when I look around I don't see God's creation. It's probably been about 5 years since I've looked around and seen God's creation.

Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

The universe and it's intricate make up clearly show evidence of a creator.God is He.This sentence is saying the things that have been made(creation) clearly give evidence of God's eternal power and divine nature.Don't you see this when you look at people,nature,strars.....?


Pray about finding a suitable church.


[/QUOTE]
Believe me, as difficult as I am, this is something I do do. It is something I find very hard not to do. But when someone tells me that God answers prayers because XYZ happened and can not entertain the possibility that it was a chance event, then I will beat them over the head (metaphorically, and less beating more of a probing), providing I know they are robust enough in their relationship with God to withstand such challenging.

Why is it important for you to convince people some "answered prayers" are chance events?Is this offensive to you?Give thanks to God in all things.

You are talking to someone who does not find joy, or connection with God through contemporary acts of Church worship. Who does not do any high energy and high emotion activity, ever. I'm the very detached type, that is rarely in the present, never dwelling in the past, never thinking towards the future, but off on some tangent (note the hyperbole in this sentence).

Contemporary Christian worship does nothing for me. Then again, the kind of things that excite me are by most people's standards dull and boring.

I suggest you leave your questions about answered prayer and evidence of God for now and accept fully that He is active in our lives.
Thank Him for this and pray pray pray.

Php 4:4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice!
Php 4:5 Let your gentle spirit be known to all men. The Lord is near.
Php 4:6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.

 

[liminal]

This sentence is saying the things that have been made(creation) clearly give evidence of God's eternal power and divine nature.

But you are assuming that the fact they were revealed to the Romans were revealed to us. Yes, at a face level, I'd agree with you that thats what it says, but...

Don't you see this when you look at people,nature,strars.....?

As I said before, no, I really don't.

Why is it important for you to convince people some "answered prayers" are chance events?Is this offensive to you?Give thanks to God in all things.

Yes, I guess it is offensive to me. I'd never thought of it like that before. The bit that is offensive is that people will not consider the alternative explanations; even put in front of them, all they can do is dismiss them. To me this seems like not using one's God given brain; which I find offensive.

I guess, more generally, this is why Church annoys me. You have very cognitively inflexible people (for the most part, and often the pastor's are the exception) who can not even contend with ideas that may be contrary to their belief structure and then automatically dismiss them.


I suggest you leave your questions about answered prayer and evidence of God for now and accept fully that He is active in our lives.
Thank Him for this and pray pray pray.

Php 4:4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice!
Php 4:5 Let your gentle spirit be known to all men. The Lord is near.
Php 4:6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.

I do rejoice in the Lord, even when it is not clear that he is involved in some thing, i.e. when its nature as a chance event is equally as viable.

Maybe I'm ignorant, or arrogant, but I'm rarely anxious (occasionally experience fear eliciting situations, but not anxious). To me, even if everything goes downhill and into muck, you just keep going. It's not the joy of heaven to look forward to which causes this, but something within humanities resiliency; for the most part, people keep going until they drop.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Welcome Liminal, I'm glad you're here. Hopefully, this website will answer some of your questions:

Ask Questions about Life and God

Spirit Led Ed (SLE)

 

[healls71]

Hi liminal! I'm new here as well.

I read an apologetics book recently, because I encounter many atheists in my life and I wanted to be more effective in my conversations with them. For someone who is very scientific, logical, analytical, etc... as it sounds like you are, simple faith is sometimes a difficult thing. As an aside, I'm one of those "touchy feely", intuitive types that doesn't need a lot of proof to believe something. I'm of the mindset that I find it more difficult to believe that God doesn't exist when I look around me at the wonder, beauty and complexity of creation. Anyway...

One suggestion that was made in the book (which was actually written for seekers and questioners--for lack of a better word) is to ask God to reveal Himself to you in ways that will be meaningful to you. What do you have to lose? The Bible says "seek and you shall find". I believe if we seek him, He will not hide himself from us.

I went through a phase in my life where I professed to be an atheist. At least that's what I said I was. The truth is that I was very angry at God for some things that had happened in my life. I thought "if there is a God, he must not care about me and I don't want any part of a God that would allow these things to happen". When I started to go back to church and tentatively test the waters again, someone told me a simple prayer that really helped me--"Lord, I believe, help my disbelief". And guess what? He did!

I will pray that He will do the same for you. I hope that's ok with you?

God bless,
Heather