All Law? Some Law? No Law?

[Janette]

Ok I'm sure this topic has been covered somewhere on this forum already but I can't seem find it so here goes. If there's a thread on this I'm just missing, feel free to redirect me to it instead of starting over here:

Jesus said "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil" Matt 5:17

But there's also...

"When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross." Colossians 2:13-14 (emphasis mine)

---
So how does it work? Do we do *everything* that's in the Old Testiment? Or only some of it? Or what?

I've seen people use passages like Col 2:13 to "justify" everything from why people don't need to keep Jewish holidays to not getting circumcised to condoning/accepting things like homosexuality.

Reading the second passage above, it would seem to me that what the author was trying to say was that Jesus forgave us for any breach of the Law we might sin our way into, which effectively nullified the Law? I've never really understood why everyone isn't just as bound to the old laws as the Jews who lived before Jesus, but Paul seems to write -- a lot -- about how the Gentiles aren't expected to live that way....

So is the point that while breaking the Law (or perhaps even willfully ignoring it) can't "undo" your Salvation if you've really accepted Jesus ... anyone having a personal relationship with Jesus would be unable to casually engage in such things because of the *nature* of that personal relationship -- the "burden" (a better word would probably be weight) of His trust in us to at least *try* to do right by Him?

Needless to say, I am quite confused.

 

[ladylovesJesus]

The old testament was about laws. The new testament is about grace.

Jesus made a new covenant with us. We are not under law but under grace.

Rom.6.14
Sin shall not be your master because
we are not under law but under grace.

Will come back and add more if I can.

Janette I just found something which may help you here: Grace of God versus Law
God bless :rose: :rainbow:

 

[kenwyn]

The Law of the Old Testament was the principal means of God's grace. Deuteronomy 6 has this lovely passage, which may help put the law in the context of God's saving plan

In the future, when your son asks you, "What is the meaning of the stipulations, decrees and laws the LORD our God has commanded you?" tell him: "We were slaves of Pharaoh in Egypt, but the LORD brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand. Before our eyes the LORD sent miraculous signs and wonders—great and terrible—upon Egypt and Pharaoh and his whole household. But he brought us out from there to bring us in and give us the land that he promised on oath to our forefathers. The LORD commanded us to obey all these decrees and to fear the LORD our God, so that we might always prosper and be kept alive, as is the case today. And if we are careful to obey all this law before the LORD our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness."
​

There is a pattern here 1) God makes a promise 2) he saves his people 3) He gives us commandments to obey so that the people of God can stay within his grace.

It is important that God's rescue plan is put into action before the commandments. He does not say to Moses in Egypt that the enslaved Israelites should follow all these laws, and if they come up to scratch, he would rescue them from Pharaoh. God in his grace takes the saving initiative, then asks for our obedience.

And "that will be our righteousness" is different to saying that obeying the law will make us righteous. There is nowhere in the Old Testament that suggests we can earn God's favour by obeying the law. Genesis 15.6 sounds similar: "Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness" - see Romans 4 for a New Testament discussion of this verse.

Jesus says that all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John the Baptist (Matthew 11:13). We have already mentioned the passage "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill."

The Law points forward to Jesus Christ. In Christ we can see a new layer of God's grace that Abraham and King David never saw. Jesus fulfills the law by completing it. Now our righteousness comes not through obeying the law, but by trusting in Christ.

Like a map that has fulfilled its purpose when you reach your destination, the Law is fulfilled in Christ.

 

[MAJ52653]

You have asked a question that the church as a whole has never agreed on. Almost every denomination varies on just that point. Should the law be a guideline or carved in stone absolutes? Should extra laws be written since Moses (and God) didn't go far enough? Or since Christ fulfilled the law for us, should we toss the lot out and live free? Even I find myself gyrating back and forth from near freeform to so strict it would make a Pharisee jealous.

 

[ladylovesJesus]

Jesus says that all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John the Baptist (Matthew 11). We have already mentioned the passage "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill."

The Law points forward to Jesus Christ. In Christ we can see a new layer of God's grace that Abraham and King David never saw. Jesus fulfills the law by completing it. Now our righteousness comes not through obeying the law, but by trusting in Christ.

I looked at Matt.11 but could not find it but I did find it here:

Matt.5

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

God bless :rainbow: :rose:

 

[billyeah]

The way I understood it, and I might be wrong. There are three catagories of Law. The Civil, Ceremonial, and the Moral.

The moral, because it is God's standard of goodness, never goes away, and should always be strived for. The moral being the Ten Commandments. Not that keeping them would save us, but because it is God's standard, it is something a child of God should strive for.

Yes?
No?

 

[jiggyfly]

The way I understood it, and I might be wrong. There are three catagories of Law. The Civil, Ceremonial, and the Moral.

The moral, because it is God's standard of goodness, never goes away, and should always be strived for. The moral being the Ten Commandments. Not that keeping them would save us, but because it is God's standard, it is something a child of God should strive for.

Yes?
No?

The Law which includes the ten commandments are part of the old covenant(contract), which has been fulfilled (completely satisfied) by Jesus the Christ. Through Christ, God has offered a new ( better) convenant to mankind.

 

[billyeah]

What is Jesus talking about when he says "If you love me, keep my commandments?"

And John says "Hereby we know that we love Him, if we keep His commandments"

If there are no commandments to keep, why would the New Testament repeatedly say "Keep my commandments"?

 

[ladylovesJesus]

The 2 greatest commandments Jesus tells us are:

Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind and all your strength and the 2nd is love your neighbour as yourself.

Mark 28

The Greatest Commandment
28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"

29 "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[f] 31 The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[g]There is no commandment greater than these."

32 "Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33 To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices."

34 When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.

We still have to keep the 10 commandments as stealing etc is against God.

When we sin we have to ask Jesus to forgive us as His grace and mercies are new every day. We are not under law but under grace.
Rom.6.14
Sin shall not be your master because
we are not under law but under grace.

We are called to imitate Jesus. We need to think constantly in a situation what would Jesus do?

God bless :rainbow: :rose:

 

[SpiritLedEd]

The Law which includes the ten commandments are part of the old covenant(contract), which has been fulfilled (completely satisfied) by Jesus the Christ. Through Christ, God has offered a new ( better) convenant to mankind.

When I look at Matthew 5:17, I see "....I have not come to abolish them (the Law and the Prophets), but to fulfill them." Added together, the Law and the Prophets are the entire Old Testament.

"Jesus fulfilled the Law in the sense that he gave it its full meaning. He emphasized its deep underlying principles and total commitment to it rather than mere external acknowledgement and obedience." ( Zondervan NIV Study Bible Study notes on Matthew 5:17)

The Law and the Prophets,then, have not been done away with; they are still in effect.

SLE

 

[jiggyfly]

When I look at Matthew 5:17, I see "....I have not come to abolish them (the Law and the Prophets), but to fulfill them." Added together, the Law and the Prophets are the entire Old Testament.

"Jesus fulfilled the Law in the sense that he gave it its full meaning. He emphasized its deep underlying principles and total commitment to it rather than mere external acknowledgement and obedience." ( Zondervan NIV Study Bible Study notes on Matthew 5:17)

The Law and the Prophets,then, have not been done away with; they are still in effect.
SLE

Hebrews 8:7-13
7*If the first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no need for a second covenant to replace it. 8 But God himself found fault with the old one when he said:“The day will come, says the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel and Judah.
9* This covenant will not be like the one
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
and led them out of the land of Egypt.
They did not remain faithful to my covenant,
so I turned my back on them, says the Lord.
10* But this is the new covenant I will make
with the people of Israel on that day, says the Lord:
I will put my laws in their minds
so they will understand them,
and I will write them on their hearts
so they will obey them.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11* And they will not need to teach their neighbors,
nor will they need to teach their family,
saying, ‘You should know the Lord.’
For everyone, from the least to the greatest,
will already know me.
12* And I will forgive their wrongdoings,
and I will never again remember their sins.”*
13 When God speaks of a new covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and ready to be put aside.

Galatians 5:1-4
1*So Christ has really set us free. Now make sure that you stay free, and don’t get tied up again in slavery to the law.
2*Listen! I, Paul, tell you this: If you are counting on circumcision to make you right with God, then Christ cannot help you. 3*I’ll say it again. If you are trying to find favor with God by being circumcised, you must obey all of the regulations in the whole law of Moses. 4 For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God’s grace.

Janette, the correct answer is no law, in reference to the old covenant law, period.

 

[ladylovesJesus]

What is important is not religion or laws as such.

It is a personal relationship with Jesus that counts. When we walk with Jesus we know what to do as He directs us and guides us by His Holy Spirit living in us.

Roms.12

Living Sacrifices

1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual[a] act of worship. 2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. 4 Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5 so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to hisfaith. 7 If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; 8if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.

God bless :rainbow: :rose:

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Re: All Law? No Law? Some Law?

The verses you cite from Hebrews are quoted from Jeremiah 31:31-34. Of particular interest to me is Jeremiah 31:33, which says: "'This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time,'declares the Lord,''I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God and they will be my people.'"

In that citation, the Lord seems to be reaffirming the law and wrapping a new covenant around it.

SLE

 

[MAJ52653]

agree

I looked at Matt.11 but could not find it but I did find it here:

Matt.5

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

God bless :rainbow: :rose:

Oh I agree, As it said in 18, none will pass till it is fulfilled, and 17 said He would fulfill it. It is just that so many denominations do ignore the fulfilled part and keep the 'till heaven and earth pass' part. Especially about the tithe. I have run across at least one church that taught on the "necessity of paying the tithe" on a weekly basis during every Sunday sermon. It was so hard being a missionarry that worked with 16 different denominations (plus a dozen non-denominationals) and having to keep track of which ones had which level of law keeping. Though I never had a problem keeping track of which ones favored the tithes. Because they all did.

 

[jiggyfly]

The verses you cite from Hebrews are quoted from Jeremiah 31:31-34. Of particular interest to me is Jeremiah 31:33, which says: "'This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time,'declares the Lord,''I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God and they will be my people.'"

In that citation, the Lord seems to be reaffirming the law and wrapping a new covenant around it.

SLE

Hebrews 8:13
13 When God speaks of a new covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and ready to be put aside.

I don't get that at all, verse 13 says the old covenant is obsolete and out of date, readied to put aside. Remember we have a new covenant not a new ammendment to the old covenant.

 

[Chad]

Hebrews 8:13
13 When God speaks of a new covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and ready to be put aside.

I don't get that at all, verse 13 says the old covenant is obsolete and out of date, readied to put aside. Remember we have a new covenant not a new ammendment to the old covenant.

This clears out pretty much any confusion about the old/new covenant. One simple verse says it all, straightforward.

How about this as well as part of the new covenant coming right from the mouth of our own Savior who is our new covenant?

Matthew 22:36-40

36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

See how simple the "law" old or new was meant to be? Simply comes down to one factor: love

If we can love GOD and love all, the rest is taken care of. If we love, we do not steal, gossip, hate, slander, so forth.