A Vision of 1830

[tulsa 2011]

A Vision of 1830

Does anyone know who had this vision in 1830, and how it became part of a major system of false doctrines? But the vision sounds like a use of metaphoric scripture and a prediction for our time, not as part of the beginning of a false tradition of men.

"Tis Christ in us that will lift us up - he is the light - 'tis only those that are alive in him that will be caught up to meet him in the air. I saw that we must be in the Spirit, that we might see spiritual things. John was in the Spirit, when he saw a throne set in Heaven. - But I saw that the glory of the ministration of the Spirit had not been known. I repeated frequently, but the spiritual temple must and shall be reared, and the fullness of Christ be poured into his body, and then shall we be caught up to meet him. Oh none will be counted worthy of this calling but his body, which is the church, and which must be a candlestick all of gold. I often said, Oh the glorious inbreaking of God which is now about to burst on this earth; Oh the glorious temple which is now about to be reared, the bride adorned for her husband; and Oh what a holy, holy bride she must be, to be prepared for such a glorious bridegroom. I said, Now shall the people of God have to do with realities - now shall the glorious mystery of God in our nature be known - now shall it be known what it is for man to be glorified."

"I saw the people of God in an awfully dangerous situation, surrounded by nets and entanglements, about to be tried, and many about to be deceived and fall. Now will THE WICKED be revealed, with all power and signs and lying wonders, so that if it were possible the very elect will be deceived. - This is the fiery trial which is to try us. - It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus; but Oh it will be a fiery trial. Every soul will be shaken to the very centre. The enemy will try to shake in every thing we have believed - But the trial of real faith will be found to honour and praise and glory. Nothing but what is of God will stand. The stony-ground hearers will be made manifest - the love of many will wax cold I frequently said that night, and often since, now shall the awful sight of a false Christ be seen on this earth. and nothing but the living Christ in us can detect this awful attempt of the enemy to deceive - or it is with all deceivableness of unrighteousness he will work - he will have a counterpart for every part of God's truth and an imitation for every work of the Spirit. The Spirit must and will be poured out on the church, that she may be purified and filled with God - and just in proportion as the Spirit of God works, so will he when our Lord anoints men with power, so will he. This is particularly the nature of the trial, through which those are to pass who will be counted worthy to stand before the Son of man."

"The trial of the Church is from Antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spirit that we shall be kept. I frequently said, Oh be filled with the Spirit - have the light of God in you, that you may detect Satan - be full of eyes within - be clay in the hands of the potter - submit to be filled, filled with God This will build the temple. It is not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit saith the Lord. This will fit us to enter into the marriage supper of the lamb. I saw It to be the will of God that all should be filled. "

"Oh! it is needed, much needed at present, a leading back to the cross, I saw that night, and often since, that there will be an outpouring of the Spirit on the body, such as has not been, a baptism of fire, that all the dross may be put away. Oh there must and will be such an indwelling of the living God as has not been - the servants of God sealed in their foreheads - great conformity to Jesus - his holy holy image seen in his people just the bride made comely, by his comeliness put upon her. This is what we are at present made to pray much for, that speedily we may all be made ready to meet our Lord in the air - and it will be."

Read it more carefully. Where is the doctrine that God has two peoples, Old Covenant Israel and the church? Where is the dispensationalist claim that Old Covenant Israel is still a people of God? Where is the pre-trib rapture. She mentions that we will meet Christ in the air. But that is exactly what Paul teaches in I Thessalonians 4: 17. This is the second coming of Christ. There is nothing in her statement about this meeting to be before the tribulation. And she is quoting and following scripture in other places also.

"... be clay in the hands of the potter - submit to be filled, filled with God This will build the temple..." She is using metaphor in accord with scripture. The temple is the lively stones of I Peter 2: 5 which are laid together to form New Jerusalem, coming down from heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Revelation 21: 2

"... 'tis only those that are alive in him that will be caught up to meet him in the air. I saw that we must be in the Spirit, that we might see spiritual things. John was in the Spirit, when he saw a throne set in Heaven. - But I saw that the glory of the ministration of the Spirit had not been known....but suddenly what it was burst upon me with a glorious light I saw it was just the Lord himself descending from Heaven with a shout, just the glorified man. even Jesus; but that all must, as Stephen was, be filled with the Holy Ghost, that they might look up, and see the brightness of the Father's glory. "

She is in the Spirit, seeing Christ, as John and Stephen saw him. She is not talking about a literal appearing of Christ to take people off the earth before the tribulation. That was added by Edward Irving and John Darby. Nowhere does she say when this spiritual seeing of Christ occurs, because it is a seeing in the Spirit, as Stephen saw in Acts 7: 55-56. Those in the state of the natural man of I Corinthians 2: 14, who can only understand literal things, made this into a literal secret appearing of Christ before the tribulation to take away the dispensationalist church.

"So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns." Revelation 17: 3

"But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul." Acts 7: 55-58

John was in the Spirit who carried him to the wilderness. The wilderness is a metaphor seen in Revelation 12: 6,14-17. John was put Spiritually in the wilderness so that he could see the truth of false religion called the scarlet colored beast. And this beast is not limited to the Roman Catholic Church.

Then, Stephen is in the Spirit and sees Christ standing on the right hand of the father. But the Pharisees, men in the state of the natural man of I Corinthians 2: 14 could not tolerate his being in the Spirit and stoned him to death.

The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit and cannot discern them. Everything is literal for the natural man.

"...tis only those that are alive in him that will be caught up to meet him in the air. I saw that we must be in the Spirit, that we might see spiritual things. John was in the Spirit, when he saw a throne set in Heaven. - But I saw that the glory of the ministration of the Spirit had not been known....but suddenly what it was burst upon me with a glorious light I saw it was just the Lord himself descending from Heaven with a shout, just the glorified man. even Jesus; but that all must, as Stephen was, be filled with the Holy Ghost, that they might look up, and see the brightness of the Father's glory. "

To the natural man this must mean a literal appearing of Christ, but in secret, to take the dispensationalist church off the earth - before the tribulation begins. In the Spirit, John saw, while in the wilderness, what false religion is. Stephen, in the Spirit, saw Christ stand up at the right hand of the Father. John was not literally taken into a wilderness and in Acts 7: 55-58 Christ was not literally seen by Stephen standing up in response to what Stephen had revealed.

There is spiritual truth and power in the metaphors of scripture, but the natural man does not get this. And dispensationalism is of the natural man.

Here is the entire written account of the vision: Excerpted from: The Incredible Cover-up, pp. 151-157, By Dave MacPherson, 1975

"It was first the awful state of the land that was pressed upon me.(1) I saw the blindness and infatuation of the people to be very great. I felt the cry of Liberty just to be the hiss of the serpent, to drown them in perdition. It was just `no God.' I repeated the words, Now there is distress of nations, with perplexity, the seas and the waves roaring, men's hearts failing them for fear - now look out for the sign of the Son of man. Here I was made to stop and cry out, 0 it is not known what the sign of the Son of man is; the people of God think they are waiting, but they know not what it is. I felt this needed to be revealed, and that there was great darkness and error about it; but suddenly what it was burst upon me with a glorious light I saw it was just the Lord himself descending from Heaven with a shout, just the glorified man. even Jesus; but that all must, as Stephen was, be filled with the Holy Ghost, that they might look up, and see the brightness of the Father's glory. I saw the error to be, that men think that it will be something seen by the natural eye; but 'tis spiritual discernment that is needed, the eye of God in his people. Many passages were revealed, in a light in which I had not before seen them. I repeated, `Now is the kingdom of Heaven like unto ten virgins, who went forth to meet the Bridegroom, five wise and five foolish; they that were foolish took their lamps, but took no oil with them; but they that were wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.' 'But be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is; and be not drunk with wine wherein is excess, but be filled with the Spirit.' This was the oil the wise virgins took in their vessels - this is the light to be kept burning - the light of God - that we may discern that which cometh not with observation to the natural eye. Only those who have the light of God within them will see the sign of his appearance. No need to follow them who say, see here, or see there, for his day shall be as the lightning to those in whom the living Christ is. 'Tis Christ in us that will lift us up - he is the light - 'tis only those that are alive in him that will be caught up to meet him in the air. I saw that we must be in the Spirit, that we might see spiritual things. John was in the Spirit, when he saw a throne set in Heaven. - But I saw that the glory of the ministration of the Spirit had not been known. I repeated frequently, but the spiritual temple must and shall be reared, and the fullness of Christ be poured into his body, and then shall we be caught up to meet him. Oh none will be counted worthy of this calling but his body, which is the church, and which must be a candlestick all of gold. I often said, Oh the glorious inbreaking of God which is now about to burst on this earth; Oh the glorious temple which is now about to be reared, the bride adorned for her husband; and Oh what a holy, holy bride she must be, to be prepared for such a glorious bridegroom. I said, Now shall the people of God have to do with realities - now shall the glorious mystery of God in our nature be known - now shall it be known what it is for man to be glorified. I felt that the revelation of Jesus Christ had yet to be opened up - it is not knowledge about God that it contains, but it is an entering into God - I saw that there was a glorious breaking in of God to be. I feIt as Elijah surrounded with chariots of fire. I saw as it were, the spiritual temple reared, and the Head Stone brought forth with shoutings of grace, grace, unto it. It was a glorious light above the brightness of the sun, that shone round about me. I felt that those who were filled with the spirit could see spiritual things, and feel walking in the midst of them, while those who had not the Spirit could see nothing - so that two shall be in one bed, the one taken and the other left, because the one has the light of God within while the other cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven. I saw the people of God in an awfully dangerous situation, surrounded by nets and entanglements, about to be tried, and many about to be deceived and fall. Now will THE WICKED be revealed, with all power and signs and lying wonders, so that if it were possible the very elect will be deceived. - This is the fiery trial which is to try us. - It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus; but Oh it will be a fiery trial. Every soul will be shaken to the very centre. The enemy will try to shake in every thing we have believed - But the trial of real faith will be found to honour and praise and glory. Nothing but what is of God will stand. The stony-ground hearers will be made manifest - the love of many will wax cold I frequently said that night, and often since, now shall the awful sight of a false Christ be seen on this earth. and nothing but the living Christ in us can detect this awful attempt of the enemy to deceive - or it is with all deceivableness of unrighteousness he will work - he will have a counterpart for every part of God's truth and an imitation for every work of the Spirit. The Spirit must and will be poured out on the church, that she may be purified and filled with God - and just in proportion as the Spirit of God works, so will he when our Lord anoints men with power, so will he. This is particularly the nature of the trial, through which those are to pass who will be counted worthy to stand before the Son of man. There will be outward trial too, but `tis principally temptation. It is brought on by the outpouring of the Spirit, and will just increase in proportion as the Spirit is poured out. The trial of the Church is from Antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spirit that we shall be kept. I frequently said, Oh be filled with the Spirit - have the light of God in you, that you may detect Satan - be full of eyes within - be clay in the hands of the potter - submit to be filled, filled with God This will build the temple. It is not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit saith the Lord. This will fit us to enter into the marriage supper of the lamb. I saw It to be the will of God that all should be filled. But what hindered the real life of God from being received by his people, was their turning from Jesus. who is the way to the Father. They were not entering in by the door. For he is faithful who hath said, by me if any man enter in he shall find pasture. They were passing the cross, through which every drop of the Spirit of God flows to us. All power that comes not through the blood of Christ is not of God. When I say, they are looking from the cross, I feel that there is much in it - they turn from the blood of the Lamb, by which we overcome, and in which our robes are washed and made white. There are low views of God's holiness, and ceasing to condemn sin in the flesh, and a looking from him who humbled himself, and made himself of no reputation. Oh! it is needed, much needed at present, a leading back to the cross, I saw that night, and often since, that there will be an outpouring of the Spirit on the body, such as has not been, a baptism of fire, that all the dross may be put away. Oh there must and will be such an indwelling of the living God as has not been - the servants of God sealed in their foreheads - great conformity to Jesus - his holy holy image seen in his people just the bride made comely, by his comeliness put upon her. This is what we are at present made to pray much for, that speedily we may all be made ready to meet our Lord in the air - and it will be. Jesus wants his bride. His desire is toward us. He that shall come, will come, and will not tarry. Amen and Amen. Even so come Lord Jesus."

 

[james1523]

Darby had already written out his pretribulation rapture views in 1827, 3 years prior to the 1830 events and any MacDonald utterance. Source: Bray, John L. (1992). The origin of the pre-tribulation rapture teaching. Lakeland, FL: John L. Bray Ministry

Darby developed his doctrine about the pre-tribulation (or two-stage) rapture independently of MacDonald, through his own inspiration from Scripture. Darby viewed the charismatic manifestations such as tongues and visions, as demonic.

Darby was not the first to propose the pre-trib rapture theory, the doctrine is found in Catholic writings from as early as the 1700's and 1800's, and even in some ancient (non-Scriptural) writings I believe.

 

[tulsa 2011]

The Catholic Origins of Futurism and Preterism

"Francisco Ribera (1537-1591) was a Jesuit doctor of theology, born in Spain, who began writing a lengthy commentary in 1585 on the book of Revelation (Apocalypse) titled In Sacrum Beati Ioannis Apostoli, & Evangelistiae Apocalypsin Commentarij, and published it about the year 1590. He died in 1591 at the age of fifty-four, so he was not able to expand on his work or write any other commentaries on Revelation. In order to remove the Catholic Church from consideration as the antichrist power, Ribera proposed that the first few chapters of the Apocalypse applied to ancient pagan Rome, and the rest he limited to a yet future period of 3 1/2 literal years, immediately prior to the second coming. During that time, the Roman Catholic Church would have fallen away from the pope into apostasy. Then, he proposed, the antichrist, a single individual, would:

Persecute and blaspheme the saints of God.
Rebuild the temple in Jerusalem.
Abolish the Christian religion.
Deny Jesus Christ.
Be received by the Jews.
Pretend to be God.
Kill the two witnesses of God.
Conquer the world."

Manuel Lacunza - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Manuel Diaz Lacunza (1731-1801) was a Jesuit priest who wrote Venida del Mesías En Gloria y Majestad, The Coming of the Messiah in Glory and Majesty in 1790. "Following the book's publication in London, the Rev Edward Irving, founder of the Catholic Apostolic Church, came across Lacunza's work and was so impressed by it that he studied Castilian for the sole purpose of translating it into English. In 1827 his two-volume translation was published under the title "The Coming of the Messiah".

"Lacunza's interpretation of Bible prophecies differed from that of William Miller and other prominent Protestants of the day who were focused on prophecy in that he espoused Futurism and his ideas had greater influence on British premillennialism, and his influence may be traced in premillennialism's drift into Futurist Dispensationalism."

"Lacunza believed - based on his reading of Bible prophecy - that during the period before the "day of the Lord" there would be a general apostasy of the Catholic Church which would make it part of the Antichrist. In this sense "the church" was not individuals, but "a moral body" composed of all the apostates and atheists. Naturally this view was especially controversial because it placed the official church on the wrong side in the final struggle between Good and Evil. It was this belief that finally brought about the Vatican's condemnation of his work."

College and University Dialogue

" He goes on to elaborate his basic premise:

"Jesus Christ will return from Heaven to earth when His time comes, at the appropriate time and moment that the Father Himself has placed under His own power. He will come accompanied not only by the angels, but also by the saints previously resurrected--of those, I say, that will be judged worthy of that time and of the resurrection of the dead. . . . He will not come in a hurry, but more deliberately than is usually thought. He will not only come to judge the dead but also and in the first place the living. Consequently, this judgment of the living and the dead cannot be only one judgment, but rather two very diverse judgments, not only in essence and in manner but also in time. From this we conclude (and this is the main point that deserves attention) that there has to be considerable space of time between the awaited coming of the Lord, and the judgment of the dead or universal resurrection."

Go back to: The Catholic Origins of Futurism and Preterism

"Edward Irving (1792-1834), a Scottish Presbyterian and forerunner of the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements, translated Lacunza's work from Spanish into English in a book titled The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty with a Preliminary Discourse, published in London in 1827 by L.B. Seeley & Sons, which included Irving's own lengthy preface. Here are excerpts from Irving's translation:

Lacunza asserts that Antichrist would appear near the end of time:

That there shall be an Antichrist; that he shall be revealed, and publicly declared, towards the last times; and that he shall commit in the world the greatest evils, making formal war against Christ, and all that pertains to him; —these are three certain things, of which no Christian can doubt. -- Vol. I, Part II, Phenomenon III, pg. 195.

Antichrist, Lacunza concludes, would not be just one man:

ACCORDING to all the signs given in the Holy Scriptures, and others, not equivocal, offered to us by time, which is wont to be the best interpreter of the prophecies, the antichrist, or the contrachrist, with whom we stand threatened in the times immediate upon the coming of the Lord, is nothing but a moral body, composed of innumerable individuals, diverse in themselves, but all morally united and animated with one common spirit, against the Lord and against his Christ; -- Vol. I, Part II, Phenomenon III, pg. 196.

As to the harlot woman riding the beast in Revelation 17, Lacunza acknowledges it is indeed referring to Rome:

... the doctors do all agree, that the woman here spoken of is the city of Rome, in other times the capital of the greatest empire in the world, and now the capital and centre of unity of the true Christian church. On this first point, which is not called in question, there is no occasion to tarry. -- Vol. I, Part II, Phenomenon III, pg. 240.

... it is not present Rome which is at all spoken of here, but future Rome alone to which the prophecy hath its determinate application. -- Vol. I, Part II, Phenomenon III, pg. 251.

Rome yes, Lacunza agrees, but not the Roman Catholic Church of his day, which he calls the true church, rather he pushes this prophecy in Revelation 17 off into the future:

Rome, not idolatrous but Christian, not the head of the Roman empire but the head of Christendom, and centre of unity of the true church of the living God, may very well, without ceasing from this dignity, at some time or other incur the guilt, and before God be held guilty of fornication with the kings of the earth, and amenable to all its consequences. And in this there is not any inconsistency, however much her defenders may shake the head. And this same Rome, in that same state, may receive upon herself the horrible chastisement spoken of in the prophecy; -- Vol. I, Part II, Phenomenon III, pg. 252.

This apostate Christian group termed Antichrist would be:

... slain and destroyed by Christ himself in the great day of his coming in glory and majesty."

Remember that the historicist interpretation of end time Bible pophecy dominated Protestant Christianity until the 19th century. The writings of Catholic Francisco Ribera (1537-1591) and Manuel Diaz Lacunza (1731-1801) may well have influenced Edward Irving and John Darby to give up the historicist interpretation of prophecy and accept a futurist view of end time prophecy. In addition, Ribera emphasized the role of a one man anti-Christ who would: Persecute and blaspheme the saints of God, Rebuild the temple in Jerusalem, Be received by the Jews, Pretend to be God, (II Thessalonians 2: 3-7) and .Kill the two witnesses of God (Revelation 11: 7-8). However, Lacunza taught that anti-Christ would not be one man.

If there is anything on a pre-tribulation rapture in the writings of Ribera or Lacunza it would have to be quoted word for word with page references given.

 

[james1523]

An essay published in 1788 in Philadelphia by the Baptist Morgan Edwards articulated the concept of a pre-tribulation rapture,
source:
Marotta, Frank (1995). Morgan Edwards: An Eighteenth Century Pretribulationist. Morganville, NJ: Present Truth Publishers.

 

[tulsa 2011]

Morgan Edwards - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Morgan Edwards (May 9, 1722 – January 25, 1795) was a Welsh historian of religion, Baptist pastor, and notable for his teaching on the 'rapture' before its popularization by John Nelson Darby (1800–1882)......"The distance between the first and second resurrection will be somewhat more than a thousand years. I say, somewhat more—, because the dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ's "appearing in the air" (I Thes. iv. 17); and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium, as we shall see hereafter: but will he and they abide in the air all that time? No: they will ascend to paradise, or to some one of those many "mansions in the father's house" (John xiv. 2), and disappear during the foresaid period of time. The design of this retreat and disappearing will be to judge the risen and changed saints; for "now the time is come that judgment must begin," and that will be "at the house of God" (I Pet. iv. 17)."[2]

See: http://www.bbc.edu/barndollar/Barndollar_Pre-Darby_Rapture.pdf

"Edwards makes three key points that are consistent with modern pretribulationism.
First, he clearly separates the rapture from the second coming by an interval of three-and-a-half years. Second, he uses modern pre-trib rapture verses (1 Thessalonians 4:17 and John 14:2) to describe the rapture and support his view."

"Third, he believed the
judgment seat of Christ (rewarding) for believers will occur in heaven while the
tribulation is raging on earth, as is common in contemporary pretribulationism."

"Edwards reiterates his pretribulational stance when he says "Another event previous to the
Millennium will be the appearing of the son of man in the clouds, coming to raise the dead saints and change the
living, and to catch them up to himself, and then withdraw with them, as
observed before. This event will come to pass when Antichrist be arrived at
Jerusalem in his conquest of the world; and about three years and a half
before his killing the witnesses and assumption of godhead."

"It is clear that Edwards separates the rapture and the second coming as seen from
the following statements: "The last event, and the event that will usher in the millennium, will be,
the coming of Christ from paradise to earth, with all the saints he had taken
up thither (about three years and a half before) to justify, against the accuser
of the brethren; and to settle their future businesses and rewards."

This is what I was looking for in the pre-trib theory of Morgan Edwards: "He uses modern pre-trib rapture verses (1 Thessalonians 4:17 and John 14:2) to describe the rapture and support his view."

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." I Thessalonians 4: 16-17

"Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." John 14: 1-3

In neither I Thessalonians 4: 16-17 nor in John 14: 1-3 is there support for a doctrine saying there will be two comings of Christ separated in time. In John 14: 2-3 Christ is saying that he will leave the earth and go to prepare a place for those who belong to him, but he will come again. He does not say that after he ascends (Acts 1: 9-11), he will come again twice.

I Thessalonians 4: 16-17 gives no indication of a time when Christ will take his people up with him in the clouds. There is a time indication for this same event in I Corinthians 15:52 and in John 6: 39. And in John 11: 24 Martha, sister of Lazarus, says she knows that Lazarus will be raised at the last day. The last day is not the pre-trib rapture.

It is clear from what Morgan Edwards is quoted as saying about a pre-trib rapture that he made this theory up himself without support from scripture, as did John Darby. I Thessalonians 4: 16-17 and John 14: 1-3 are not written in metaphoric language. So it should have been easy for followers of John Darby - and Morgan Edwards - to understand that there is no support in scripture for their pre-trib rapture.

The problem, though, with focusing on the pre-trib rapture as being a vital part of Christian Zionism, or dispensationalism, is that the pre-trib rapture is not the starting doctrine nor the essential part of this tradition of men. Dispensationalists do come out of the strong delusion of II Thessalonians 2:11 as far as the pre-trib rapture is concerned, but stick rigidly to Darby's doctrine of two houses of God, and to the belief that Old Covenant Israel remains the chosen people. The two group theory is one of the starting doctrines of this tradition of men. The other is the literal "hermeneutic."

So, if anyone gets into a personal dialogue with a dispensationalist, if the dispenationalist can lure him into focusing only on the pre-trib rapture, which is clearly not in scripture, he will have lost the quarrel off the bat. Because focusing on the pre-trib rapture takes attention off the even more serious error of the two group theory, that God still sees Old Covenant Israel as his chosen and on the literal method of interpretation of scripture.

 

[Travis]

It's pretty simple for me:

1 Corinthians 15 ESV
51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

Whenever the last trumpet is, that's when the dead are raised. Then, and only then, is any one raptured..

So, whenever the last trumpet is, that's where you will find the rapture.

Grace to you,

Travis

 

[B-A-C]

1 Thes 4:16; For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1 Thes 4:17; Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thes 4:18; Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Matt 24:39; and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
Matt 24:40; “Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left.
Matt 24:41; “Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.
Matt 24:42; “Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.
Matt 24:43;“But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into.
Matt 24:44;“For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.

There are many many books about the rapture long before Darby ever existed. (even Margaret McDonald) but even Apostoli was writing about it in the 7th century.

Luke 17:30; It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.
Luke 17:31; On that day, the one who is on the housetop and whose goods are in the house must not go down to take them out; and likewise the one who is in the field must not turn back.
Luke 17:32; Remember Lot’s wife.
Luke 17:33; Whoever seeks to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.
Luke 17:34; I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left.
Luke 17:35; There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken and the other will be left.
Luke 17:36; Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left.”

 

[tulsa 2011]

"Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison." Matthew 5: 25

Christ does not mean to agree quickly with your adversary and in this process give up your faith in the absolute truth of scripture. He means not to get into continued arguments with an opponent.

If the adversary of the Christian Zionist is one who is trying to uphold the truth of scripture, the Zionist can sometimes win out just by causing the adversary to continue the argument, especially of the Zionist uses subtle but dishonest means of making an argument. In a continued argument where the opponent tries to discredit the adversary in a personal way misrepresents his position or is otherwise dishonest or deceptive, emotions get aroused. When emotions get aroused the adversary trying to contend for the truth can be reduced - at least momentarily - back to the condition of the natural man of I Corinthians 2: 14, who does not discern the things of the Spirit.

"For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by
us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in
him was yea. For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him
Amen, unto the glory of God by us." II Corinthians 1: 19-20

In Jesus Christ there are no shades of grey, no double mindedness,
only absolutes. The dialectic mind, on the other hand, operates on shades of grey and doublemindedness.

"But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven,
neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be
yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation." James 5: 12

The dialectic mind starts from a position that there are no
absolute truths or absolute morals. It is a double minded mind, and
accepts yea and nay about doctrines taught in the scripture.