A lack of choice?

[B-A-C]

An honest discussion on free-will.

As most of you already know, I'm a free-will supporter. But there are scriptures we should be able to discuss.

I believe in God's sovereignty.

1. Proverbs 21:1 (NASB95)​

"The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord; He turns it wherever He wishes."

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2. Proverbs 16:9 (NASB95)​

"The mind of man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps."

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3. Proverbs 19:21 (NASB95)​

"Many plans are in a man’s heart, but the counsel of the Lord will stand."

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4. Psalm 37:23 (NASB95)​

"The steps of a man are established by the Lord, and He delights in his way."

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5. Romans 9:10–12 (NASB95)​

"And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, 'The older will serve the younger.'"

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6. Jeremiah 10:23 (NASB95)​

"I know, O Lord, that a man’s way is not in himself, nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps."

It seems that (sometimes at least) God directs people to do certain things. I believe this can be because of decisions we make sometimes.

7. Exodus 8:15 (NASB95)​

"But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not listen to them, as the Lord had said."
Pharaoh initially hardened his own heart.

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8. Exodus 9:12 (NASB95)​

"And the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not listen to them, just as the Lord had spoken to Moses."
Later, God actively hardens Pharaoh’s heart.

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9. Exodus 10:1 (NASB95)​

"Then the Lord said to Moses, 'Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may perform these signs of Mine among them.'"
God explains His purpose in hardening Pharaoh’s heart—to display His power and signs.

This progression—from Pharaoh hardening his own heart to God hardening it—illustrates both human responsibility and divine sovereignty working together.
Now while I don't doubt that God controls all of these things... we still have the choice to sin or not.

1Cor 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

Does God control whether you eat scrambled eggs or oatmeal for breakfast? I don't know... I know sometimes people (including myself) don't always make
the healthiest choices. Is that because God made me have a piece of cake for breakfast, or is that because I made a bad decision?

When God told Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit (knowledge of good and evil) but they did it anyway.. was that because God made them do exactly what He told them not to do. Or was it because of their own free-will choice?

I do believe there are certain things God plans in advance. Nothing catches God by surprise. In fact I would say every prophecy in the Bible about future events (even future events that are now in the past) are part of God's sovereign plan.

But does God cause people to sin? I don't think so. Does God choose certain people to go to hell/the lake of Fire in advance? I don't think so.

We still have the ability to choose.

Josh 24:15 "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Deut 30:19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

 

[Brad Huber]

The Holy Spirit speaks to our hearts. Some choose to listen and obey and some choose not to. Those that listen and obey usually turn out better overall spiritually. Yet sometimes God sends a deceiving spirit to bend an already bent spirit onto a path of destruction for themselves and those with him/her.

 

[Garee]

An honest discussion on free-will.

As most of you already know, I'm a free-will supporter. But there are scriptures we should be able to discuss.

I believe in God's sovereignty.

1. Proverbs 21:1 (NASB95)​

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2. Proverbs 16:9 (NASB95)​

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3. Proverbs 19:21 (NASB95)​

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4. Psalm 37:23 (NASB95)​

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5. Romans 9:10–12 (NASB95)​

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6. Jeremiah 10:23 (NASB95)​

It seems that (sometimes at least) God directs people to do certain things. I believe this can be because of decisions we make sometimes.

7. Exodus 8:15 (NASB95)​

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8. Exodus 9:12 (NASB95)​

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9. Exodus 10:1 (NASB95)​

This progression—from Pharaoh hardening his own heart to God hardening it—illustrates both human responsibility and divine sovereignty working together.
Now while I don't doubt that God controls all of these things... we still have the choice to sin or not.

1Cor 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

Does God control whether you eat scrambled eggs or oatmeal for breakfast? I don't know... I know sometimes people (including myself) don't always make
the healthiest choices. Is that because God made me have a piece of cake for breakfast, or is that because I made a bad decision?

When God told Adam and Eve not to eat the fruit (knowledge of good and evil) but they did it anyway.. was that because God made them do exactly what He told them not to do. Or was it because of their own free-will choice?

I do believe there are certain things God plans in advance. Nothing catches God by surprise. In fact I would say every prophecy in the Bible about future events (even future events that are now in the past) are part of God's sovereign plan.

But does God cause people to sin? I don't think so. Does God choose certain people to go to hell/the lake of Fire in advance? I don't think so.

We still have the ability to choose.

Josh 24:15 "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Deut 30:19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

I would call it a lack of the right choice. as it is written "I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;"

Choosing death and not life They did their own will . . . not "thou shall not" the will of the invisible Holy Father.

Deuteronomy 30:14-16 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.;See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

They ate of the meat or bread of their own will and not the meat of the Father.

He gave to His Son of man the daily bread empowering Jesus the son of man to both hear and understand the will of our invisible God and empower him to finish it to the Father's good pleasure. both to will. . to do (finish)

John 4:31-34;In the mean while his disciples prayed him, saying, Master, eat. But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not of.
;Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat?;Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

A freed will can bring glory to Christ the faithful creator of wills .

 

[Curtis]

6. Jeremiah 10:23 (NASB95)​

Jer 10:23 I know, O LORD, that the way of man is not in himself, that it is not in man who walks to direct his steps.

It seems that (sometimes at least) God directs people to do certain things. I believe this can be because of decisions we make sometimes.

The scripture tells us.....

Psa 37:4 Delight yourself in the LORD, and he will give you the desires of your heart.

If a person delights themselves in the Lord, He will give them the desires of their heart, not that whatever you desire before you delight yourself in the Lord, but after you delight in Him, God's desires for you will be given to you. Now, after that, whatever you desire will also be God's desire for you.

Another way of God directing man's steps

 

[KingJ]

The scripture tells us.....

Psa 37:4 Delight yourself in the LORD, and he will give you the desires of your heart.

If a person delights themselves in the Lord, He will give them the desires of their heart, not that whatever you desire before you delight yourself in the Lord, but after you delight in Him, God's desires for you will be given to you. Now, after that, whatever you desire will also be God's desire for you.

Another way of God directing man's steps

Agreed, so you believe in true free will? In the other thread you were not advocating for it.

 

[KingJ]

A lack of choice?​

Free will is a very difficult topic to grasp. You are 100% correct that it is a scriptural fact.

It seems that God gifts us with free will. He 'can' know if our future is heaven or hell from the moment we are made in our mothers womb according to Rom 9:21. But according to all of scripture outside of that specific verse, it is crystal clear that he chooses to not know. Some key verses in addition to those you quoted are:

1 James 2:4 - God wills that all be saved.
Acts 10:34 - God is impartial

and perhaps the most important verse on the topic: Psalm 115:3 - God does whatever pleases Him.

Being impartial and righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17, in His dealings with us, pleases Him.

Nothing, absolutely nothing holy, righteous and good about partiality / no true free will. Nobody would serve God if this were true. This is why the devil pushes it. Why people proclaiming to be Christians, cannot fail harder at their 'one' job of being God's ambassador's 2 Cor 5:20.

 

[KingJ]

I do believe there are certain things God plans in advance.

True. Events for sure.

Nothing catches God by surprise.

I don't agree. In order for true free will to exist He has to be surprised by our decisions.

Examples:

1. Micah 3:12 - This verse initially predicts the destruction of Jerusalem, but God ultimately relents from judgment when the people repent.

2. Jeremiah 3:6-7, 19-20 - These verses show God's disappointment and surprise at the unfaithfulness of his people, Israel, despite his previous warnings and actions.

3. Isa 59:16 - God is described as "wondering" that there was no one to intervene and save Israel, leading him to act on their behalf.

4. Luke 15:7 - Jesus says there is more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous people, suggesting a divine surprise at the sinner's return.

5. Acts 12 - The miraculous escape of Peter from prison, orchestrated by an angel, is presented as a surprising divine intervention.

6. Jonah - While God foretold the destruction of Nineveh, the city's repentance led to God relenting from his judgment, which could be seen as a divine surprise.

There are many more such examples in scripture.

 

[Garee]

True. Events for sure.



I don't agree. In order for true free will to exist He has to be surprised by our decisions.

Examples:

1. Micah 3:12 - This verse initially predicts the destruction of Jerusalem, but God ultimately relents from judgment when the people repent.

2. Jeremiah 3:6-7, 19-20 - These verses show God's disappointment and surprise at the unfaithfulness of his people, Israel, despite his previous warnings and actions.

3. Isa 59:16 - God is described as "wondering" that there was no one to intervene and save Israel, leading him to act on their behalf.

4. Luke 15:7 - Jesus says there is more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous people, suggesting a divine surprise at the sinner's return.

5. Acts 12 - The miraculous escape of Peter from prison, orchestrated by an angel, is presented as a surprising divine intervention.

6. Jonah - While God foretold the destruction of Nineveh, the city's repentance led to God relenting from his judgment, which could be seen as a divine surprise.

There are many more such examples in scripture.

I would think the other way around. We are surprised having been freely given a new eternal desire to please God not seen.

It's not repetition in itself that is vain. When anxious we are lovingly commanded to cry out like a baby over and over.

The vainness denies Christ already knows before a thought of oneself comes into mind. He teaches how to receive our daily bread

Mathew 6:7But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
;Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.;After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

6. Jonah - While God foretold the destruction of Nineveh, the city's repentance led by God Holy Spirit and not led to relenting from his judgment, which could be seen as a divine surprise to the sinners .No Suprise to the "Let there be" Holy Father.

 

[Bill]

God knows all. That is a given. God does not create evil. The proof is in the scripture itself.
It is written - God is love.
It is also written - where love is evil can not be.

So we know God did not create evil. Yet Lucifer, a prince of Heaven and of angels, scripture states - evil was found in him.

This is proof that Lucifer had to have free will. To choose, to betray, to follow his own path. To say that I am equal with God.

 

[Curtis]

Agreed, so you believe in true free will? In the other thread you were not advocating for it.

I have never advocated that man has no free will. Man has free will to choose, but God provides the choices.

 

[Garee]

God knows all. That is a given. God does not create evil. The proof is in the scripture itself.
It is written - God is love.
It is also written - where love is evil can not be.

So we know God did not create evil. Yet Lucifer, a prince of Heaven and of angels, scripture states - evil was found in him.

This is proof that Lucifer had to have free will. To choose, to betray, to follow his own path. To say that I am equal with God.

Lucifer was to protect the glory of the Lord from the false pride.

The spirit of false prophecy false apostles prophesying his own will .

Adding an oral tradition. "Nether shall you touch". Preparing his two-fold fleshy weapon of warfare. The lust of the flesh along with the lust of the eye the two bulding blocks working as one false pride.

In that parable, the lust of the flesh longing to see drew them to the hidden tree the lust of the eye causing false pride touching they died, eating the evidence of the lusts

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Nothing of itself is evil save the evil one. God as he has with the Jew can cause a evil to discipline bring a unbelieving nation against them

In that way he who is light and not that he can only create it temp hides himself from the darkness as the peace of God, creating an evil for those in darkness and a peace as joy for those in the light

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

 

[B-A-C]

2. Jeremiah 3:6-7, 19-20 - These verses show God's disappointment and surprise at the unfaithfulness of his people, Israel, despite his previous warnings and actions.

Some of these are pretty good examples. Which leads me to another topic.. based on these replies.

 

[Dave M]

God knows all. That is a given. God does not create evil. The proof is in the scripture itself.
It is written - God is love.
It is also written - where love is evil can not be.

So we know God did not create evil. Yet Lucifer, a prince of Heaven and of angels, scripture states - evil was found in him.

This is proof that Lucifer had to have free will. To choose, to betray, to follow his own path. To say that I am equal with God.

this is a scripture I have always sort of wrestled with, it plain as day day the Lord create evil,, I do not think we have the mind to understand all that GOd does, I know he does it for our good, and my trust and faith is in God, one thought is that he may of created evil, but he gave us a choice to do evil or not, he may of created evil, just so we so much more appreciate it when he wipes it out !! not al versions use the word evil, some most use calamity or disaster.

Isaiah 45:7
King James Bible
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
New King James Version
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things.’

New American Standard Bible
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating disaster; I am the LORD who does all these things.

NASB 1995
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.

NASB 1977
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.

 

[B-A-C]

What do we consider evil, versus what does God consider evil?

The idea of "collateral damage" in the Bible—where people suffer consequences not directly due to their own actions—does appear in several places, and it raises profound theological and moral questions. Here are some key passages and themes that relate to this concept:

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1. Generational Consequences​

Exodus 20:5 (ESV)

"You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me."

This verse is often cited in discussions about inherited consequences. It suggests that the effects of sin can ripple through generations—not necessarily as punishment, but as a consequence of broken relationships and systems.

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2. The Testing of Job​

Job 1:13–19
Job’s children and servants are killed in a series of calamities allowed by God as part of a test initiated by Satan. These individuals did nothing wrong themselves, yet they suffered greatly. This raises questions about divine justice and the mystery of suffering.

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3. Achan’s Sin and His Family​

Joshua 7:24–25 (ESV)

"And Joshua and all Israel with him took Achan... and his sons and daughters... And all Israel stoned him with stones."

Achan disobeyed God by taking forbidden items, and his entire family was executed with him. Some scholars argue this reflects the communal nature of sin in ancient Israel, though it’s still troubling from a modern ethical standpoint.

Joshua 7:5
"And the men of Ai killed about thirty-six of their men and chased them before the gate as far as Shebarim..."

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4. David’s Census​

2 Samuel 24:15 (ESV)

"So the Lord sent a pestilence on Israel... and 70,000 men died."

David sinned by taking a census, but it was the people who suffered. This is another example of leadership sin affecting the innocent.

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5. Jesus and the Man Born Blind​

John 9:2–3 (ESV)

"And his disciples asked him, 'Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?' Jesus answered, 'It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him.'"

This passage challenges the assumption that suffering is always tied to personal or ancestral sin. It introduces the idea that suffering can have a redemptive or revelatory purpose.

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6. Ezekiel on Individual Responsibility​

Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV)

"The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father..."

This verse seems to counter the idea of generational punishment, emphasizing personal responsibility.

 

[B-A-C]

Joshua 7:5
"And the men of Ai killed about thirty-six of their men and chased them before the gate as far as Shebarim..."

That just goes to show that Ai should be avoided!

 

[Brad Huber]

Joshua 7:5
"And the men of Ai killed about thirty-six of their men and chased them before the gate as far as Shebarim..."

That just goes to show that Ai should be avoided!

LOL!!

 

[Curtis]

5. Jesus and the Man Born Blind​

John 9:2–3 (ESV)

"And his disciples asked him, 'Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?' Jesus answered, 'It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him.'"

This passage challenges the assumption that suffering is always tied to personal or ancestral sin. It introduces the idea that suffering can have a redemptive or revelatory purpose.

It is not because of this man's sin or the sin of his parents, but it was because of sin that he was born blind. If there were no sin in the world, blindness would not be possible.

 

[Curtis]

What do we consider evil, versus what does God consider evil?

The idea of "collateral damage" in the Bible—where people suffer consequences not directly due to their own actions—does appear in several places, and it raises profound theological and moral questions. Here are some key passages and themes that relate to this concept:

1Pe 3:10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:

Evil is not just what people do, but also in what they say. Speaking "evil" is confessing words contrary to what God has said who we are, where we are, and in what he has already given us. I prefer to love life and see good days!