144,000 evangelist
Active
If you read revelation in order (and the rest of the bible) you will see that all christians go through tribulation. Ive been through tribulation, you will go through it, anyone who names the name of Jesus will, its part and parcel of having faith.
Look at revelation 6:9-11
The twelve tribes are in heaven all around the throne yea? Why would they NOT have glorified bodies. Paul said there is no difference between jew or greek all are one in christ Jesus. The 144,000 from the tribes are the first fruits and they will have glorified bodies. JEsus new covenant is for all, including gentiles not just the israelite tribes.
Look at revelation 6:9-11
The twelve tribes are in heaven all around the throne yea? Why would they NOT have glorified bodies. Paul said there is no difference between jew or greek all are one in christ Jesus. The 144,000 from the tribes are the first fruits and they will have glorified bodies. JEsus new covenant is for all, including gentiles not just the israelite tribes.
Loyal
The tribulations is not something I believe Christians go through we are raptured is what I believe, if you do not then thats fine. I am not talking about trials we encounter I thought that would of been obvious, I am talking about in revelation the 7 years of tribulation!!!
No one said anything about the twelve tribes in heaven read my question carefully , there are 144,000 evangalist that are selected from the twelve tribes that preach the gospel during tribulation it does not say when they are finished and enter the millennium wheather they are human bodies or glorified bodies, they were in human bodies from what I can tell during the tribulation, so I think they might have human bodies going into the millennium so they can be fruitful and multiply. I see no whear it says they have glorified bodies when they are chosen to spread the gospel during tribulation. They are alive during that period of time is what I understand they are not coming down form heaven they are alive in human form is what I understand please someone correct if I am wrong.
No one said anything about the twelve tribes in heaven read my question carefully , there are 144,000 evangalist that are selected from the twelve tribes that preach the gospel during tribulation it does not say when they are finished and enter the millennium wheather they are human bodies or glorified bodies, they were in human bodies from what I can tell during the tribulation, so I think they might have human bodies going into the millennium so they can be fruitful and multiply. I see no whear it says they have glorified bodies when they are chosen to spread the gospel during tribulation. They are alive during that period of time is what I understand they are not coming down form heaven they are alive in human form is what I understand please someone correct if I am wrong.
Loyal
Revelation 7:1-17 ESV / 359
After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on earth or sea or against any tree. Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel: 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed, 12,000 from the tribe of Reuben, 12,000 from the tribe of Gad, ...
To me this is indicating the 144,000 are on earth living there at the time of tribulation
After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on earth or sea or against any tree. Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel: 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed, 12,000 from the tribe of Reuben, 12,000 from the tribe of Gad, ...
To me this is indicating the 144,000 are on earth living there at the time of tribulation
Loyal
Revelation 14:1-20 ESV / 285 helpful votes
Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps, and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.
well I think I have the best answer to my question here, Looks like they are in throne room, so I do not think you get in the throne room with a human body, unless it is just there spirit that is there ?? so I would imagine they enter the 1000 year kingdom with there glorified bodies.
Then I looked, and behold, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven like the roar of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder. The voice I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps, and they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.
well I think I have the best answer to my question here, Looks like they are in throne room, so I do not think you get in the throne room with a human body, unless it is just there spirit that is there ?? so I would imagine they enter the 1000 year kingdom with there glorified bodies.
Active
look in the bible in the passages referred to and you have your answer.
If you read the bible in order you will see that Jesus came and appointed twelve apostles representing twelve tribes..and Paul being apostle to gentiles, are the multiude the firstfruits were asking about.
See the israelites thought they were the only ones fit to enter the kingdom as they were chosen ones but Jesus brings in sheep from other pastures.
You have some other confusing teaching but am not going to comment on that sorry because if you read the bible in order you can figure it out.. Nobody says they going to be fruitful and multiply, there is only a certain number from the twelve tribes and Jesus says we not getting married in heaven, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. But the deacendants of abraham that are like sand on the sea shore refer to gentiles who have faith in Jesus. These are those multitudes of believers ever since Jesus has opened the way...it is not just referring to people living in earth here and now but since Jesus was resurrected. These belivers are sleeping and not in their glorified bodies yet that we can see on earth.
Please dont try to insert something that isnt there, you will only confuse yourself!
If you read the bible in order you will see that Jesus came and appointed twelve apostles representing twelve tribes..and Paul being apostle to gentiles, are the multiude the firstfruits were asking about.
See the israelites thought they were the only ones fit to enter the kingdom as they were chosen ones but Jesus brings in sheep from other pastures.
You have some other confusing teaching but am not going to comment on that sorry because if you read the bible in order you can figure it out.. Nobody says they going to be fruitful and multiply, there is only a certain number from the twelve tribes and Jesus says we not getting married in heaven, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. But the deacendants of abraham that are like sand on the sea shore refer to gentiles who have faith in Jesus. These are those multitudes of believers ever since Jesus has opened the way...it is not just referring to people living in earth here and now but since Jesus was resurrected. These belivers are sleeping and not in their glorified bodies yet that we can see on earth.
Please dont try to insert something that isnt there, you will only confuse yourself!
Loyal
Lanolin thanks for the reply
I am not very clear at what you trying to communicate.
You did help me see that the 144,000 will probably have glorified bodies when they enter the 1,000 year rain of Jesus on earth. As they did go to the thrown room after there work was done on earth when they preached the gospel during the 7 year tribulation I missed that before but the scripture I posted above is clear about that. Revelation 14:1-20 proves this point. thanks for helping me find that. I agree scripture says once we receive our glorified bodies we will not marry or reproduce, but you do realize that during the 1,000 rain of Jesus on earth there will be people with glorified bodies and normal bodies and the normal bodies that will produce children dont you???
that was my whole question of the thread and it has been answered and backed up with scripture. thanks for helping me !!!
I am confused by some of what you wrote,
I may be wrong but it seems you think that the 144,000 evangelist have glorified bodies during the tribulation, it not clear to me if you think that or not?? if you do beleive they have glorified bodies could you provide scripture to back that up I can not find any??
----- To me the following scripture would suggest that these were Jews that were living on earth prior to the tribulation and Jesus chose them to evangelize during the tribulation,
Revelation 7:1-17 ESV / 359
After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on earth or sea or against any tree. Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel: 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed, 12,000 from the tribe of Reuben, 12,000 from the tribe of Gad, ..
Another thing I am not clear about from your post is do you believe in the rapture??? no need to explain your answer just a yes or no I would greatly appreciate, the reason I say no need to explain is because many Christian beleive in the rapture and many do not believe in it so I am just curios as your view????? from your above post it seems you do not believe in it but I am 100% clear on that.
thanks Lanolin for taking the time with this slow learner
I am not very clear at what you trying to communicate.
You did help me see that the 144,000 will probably have glorified bodies when they enter the 1,000 year rain of Jesus on earth. As they did go to the thrown room after there work was done on earth when they preached the gospel during the 7 year tribulation I missed that before but the scripture I posted above is clear about that. Revelation 14:1-20 proves this point. thanks for helping me find that. I agree scripture says once we receive our glorified bodies we will not marry or reproduce, but you do realize that during the 1,000 rain of Jesus on earth there will be people with glorified bodies and normal bodies and the normal bodies that will produce children dont you???
that was my whole question of the thread and it has been answered and backed up with scripture. thanks for helping me !!!
I am confused by some of what you wrote,
I may be wrong but it seems you think that the 144,000 evangelist have glorified bodies during the tribulation, it not clear to me if you think that or not?? if you do beleive they have glorified bodies could you provide scripture to back that up I can not find any??
----- To me the following scripture would suggest that these were Jews that were living on earth prior to the tribulation and Jesus chose them to evangelize during the tribulation,
Revelation 7:1-17 ESV / 359
After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow on earth or sea or against any tree. Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel: 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed, 12,000 from the tribe of Reuben, 12,000 from the tribe of Gad, ..
Another thing I am not clear about from your post is do you believe in the rapture??? no need to explain your answer just a yes or no I would greatly appreciate, the reason I say no need to explain is because many Christian beleive in the rapture and many do not believe in it so I am just curios as your view????? from your above post it seems you do not believe in it but I am 100% clear on that.
thanks Lanolin for taking the time with this slow learner
Loyal
@Dave M
It seems like many things in Christianity there are two extremes at opposite ends of a spectrum I think going too far
in either direction can sometimes be a bad thing.
I believe as it seems you do. The kingdom of heaven is both spiritual and physical. Although we are physical fleshly
beings, a part of us is spirit and lives in the "spiritual realm" of heaven.
There is a teaching that says our spirit has always existed, but the Bible says the physical comes first.
1 Cor 15:40; There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.
1 Cor 15:41; There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
1 Cor 15:42; So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
1 Cor 15:43; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
1 Cor 15:44; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
1 Cor 15:45; So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1 Cor 15:46; However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
1 Cor 15:47; The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.
We aren't spiritual beings that become flesh, we are flesh beings that have a spirit. The flesh always comes first with men (humans).
With Jesus it was the opposite. He always existed as part of the triune God, but didn't always exist in flesh. He became flesh to dwell
among us. ( John 1:14; )
We could say the kingdom of heaven exists on the earth right now. But that isn't entirely correct.
It exists in some places. Now God is omniscient and exists everywhere, I'm not saying anything different. But He know which
people on the earth belong to Him, and which people choose not to. The vast majority choose not to.
So the kingdom of heaven exists in little camps here and there. Sometimes the camps are quite large, but sometimes there is
only person in the camp. It also exists physically. You and I are part of the kingdom. Perhaps some church buildings might be
considered part of the kingdom. But we certainly can't say it exists physically all over the world currently.
Some believe this "spiritual kingdom" is all there is, and all there ever will be. Some go so far as to say all the events in Revelation have
already happened, Jesus has already came back and set up His kingdom here on the earth. Of course there are many many problems
with this doctrine, but it exists nontheless.
Technically it isn't Jesus dwelling among us right now. It is the Holy Spirit that dwells within us.
Second, the "god of this world", "the prince of the air" ( 2 Cor 4:4; Eph 2:2; ) is still roaming around seeking whom he may devour. ( 1 Pet 5:8; )
When Jesus comes back, everyone will see Him. He will come in power and Glory. He will rule over the entire earth with a rod of iron.
Not just pockets here and there, but everywhere. For the first 1,000 years Satan will be imprisoned. Neither of these things have ever happened
yet. Jesus has never ruled over the entire earth with a rod of iron, and Satan still hasn't been imprisoned.
The new Jerusalem has physical dimensions and will exist physically. Satan and those who follow him will eventually be cast into the
lake of fire. This hasn't happened yet either. The new Jerusalem is not a "spiritual only" kingdom that has already come down.
If we look at all the bowl, trumpet, peals of thunder etc... judgments of Revelation, they haven't happened yet.
The birth pangs Jesus talks about have started, but the events of the great tribulation haven't even begun yet.
The rapture hasn't happened yet (most people who believe in the "spiritual only" kingdom don't believe in the rapture). They would say the rapture can't happen and doesn't need to happen if the events of Revelation have already happened.
Yet despite all these things.. some people still believe it is already here.
I've noticed at least 3 or 4 that believe this way here on TJ. However it isn't really worth arguing over, I don't believe your salvation depends on which way you believe here. In way we believe the same thing, only the timing is different.
It seems like many things in Christianity there are two extremes at opposite ends of a spectrum I think going too far
in either direction can sometimes be a bad thing.
I believe as it seems you do. The kingdom of heaven is both spiritual and physical. Although we are physical fleshly
beings, a part of us is spirit and lives in the "spiritual realm" of heaven.
There is a teaching that says our spirit has always existed, but the Bible says the physical comes first.
1 Cor 15:40; There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.
1 Cor 15:41; There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
1 Cor 15:42; So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
1 Cor 15:43; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
1 Cor 15:44; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
1 Cor 15:45; So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1 Cor 15:46; However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
1 Cor 15:47; The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.
We aren't spiritual beings that become flesh, we are flesh beings that have a spirit. The flesh always comes first with men (humans).
With Jesus it was the opposite. He always existed as part of the triune God, but didn't always exist in flesh. He became flesh to dwell
among us. ( John 1:14; )
We could say the kingdom of heaven exists on the earth right now. But that isn't entirely correct.
It exists in some places. Now God is omniscient and exists everywhere, I'm not saying anything different. But He know which
people on the earth belong to Him, and which people choose not to. The vast majority choose not to.
So the kingdom of heaven exists in little camps here and there. Sometimes the camps are quite large, but sometimes there is
only person in the camp. It also exists physically. You and I are part of the kingdom. Perhaps some church buildings might be
considered part of the kingdom. But we certainly can't say it exists physically all over the world currently.
Some believe this "spiritual kingdom" is all there is, and all there ever will be. Some go so far as to say all the events in Revelation have
already happened, Jesus has already came back and set up His kingdom here on the earth. Of course there are many many problems
with this doctrine, but it exists nontheless.
Technically it isn't Jesus dwelling among us right now. It is the Holy Spirit that dwells within us.
Second, the "god of this world", "the prince of the air" ( 2 Cor 4:4; Eph 2:2; ) is still roaming around seeking whom he may devour. ( 1 Pet 5:8; )
When Jesus comes back, everyone will see Him. He will come in power and Glory. He will rule over the entire earth with a rod of iron.
Not just pockets here and there, but everywhere. For the first 1,000 years Satan will be imprisoned. Neither of these things have ever happened
yet. Jesus has never ruled over the entire earth with a rod of iron, and Satan still hasn't been imprisoned.
The new Jerusalem has physical dimensions and will exist physically. Satan and those who follow him will eventually be cast into the
lake of fire. This hasn't happened yet either. The new Jerusalem is not a "spiritual only" kingdom that has already come down.
If we look at all the bowl, trumpet, peals of thunder etc... judgments of Revelation, they haven't happened yet.
The birth pangs Jesus talks about have started, but the events of the great tribulation haven't even begun yet.
The rapture hasn't happened yet (most people who believe in the "spiritual only" kingdom don't believe in the rapture). They would say the rapture can't happen and doesn't need to happen if the events of Revelation have already happened.
Yet despite all these things.. some people still believe it is already here.
I've noticed at least 3 or 4 that believe this way here on TJ. However it isn't really worth arguing over, I don't believe your salvation depends on which way you believe here. In way we believe the same thing, only the timing is different.
Active
@Dave M, @B-A-C shared a scripture that illuminates this in Corinthians.
With regards to the kingdom of heaven it is here but we cant see it, Jesus has bought it to earth but we need to enter in it, and this can only happen in spirit, but you and I are not in glorified bodies yet, as that can only happen when we are transfigured. (Or resurrected..this happens after we die physically...nobody gets off this planet alive, even Jesus had to die first!!! You cant make yourself an exception! Catholics like to believe Mary ascended to heaven without even dying..um..no. The only people the Bible claims to have ever done that is Enoch and .elijah)
Yes there will be a resurrection which you call a 'rapture' but I do read in my bible about that and scripture does not teach 7 years tribulation for only people living here and now remember revelation was written by John way back to the church, John was witness to Jesus when he was actually here on earth before destruction of Jerusalem and the temple...if you go to Israel the temple is not actually there is it. You wont find the holy of holies there because God is dwelling in us..ie, body of Christ.
It is just what we see now is not all gentiles have come to Christ yet has they worldwide. So what the timing is, we dont know only God knows, however God knows how many people will enter the kingdom and He has specified a number of israelites from each tribe, and this is for all time, not just today. All you need to understand is Jesus has opened heavens gates so that we can enter in and that is the hope we have. We can enter that rest as it says in Hebrews, we dont need to be in limbo as today is the day of salvation.
Before Jesus came we had no way of knowing that paradise existed, and none of us could directly communicate with God except his chosen people in israel, before Jesus made a way.
So some of what you say @Dave M makes sense but some of it I think you have picked up by teachers but you need to search scripture to see if it is so. I believe in Jesus Christ his life, death and resurrection. Christians arent only christians cos they believe they are special and everyone else is going to hell and die and be 'left behind' as many rapture proponents talk about .. this just smacks of smugness and it also is the reverse of what the bible talks about cos the righteous are actually not going to be removed...it is the wicked who are taken away!!!
we are christians because we believe in Jesus. And do what Jesus says.
Please be careful and have discernement over different teachings that people expound..search the scripture to see if things are so, dont believe every spirit but test them.
My devotion today talked about wisdom..and also there will be people who try and say the emperor has new clothes...but dont be scammed.
With regards to the kingdom of heaven it is here but we cant see it, Jesus has bought it to earth but we need to enter in it, and this can only happen in spirit, but you and I are not in glorified bodies yet, as that can only happen when we are transfigured. (Or resurrected..this happens after we die physically...nobody gets off this planet alive, even Jesus had to die first!!! You cant make yourself an exception! Catholics like to believe Mary ascended to heaven without even dying..um..no. The only people the Bible claims to have ever done that is Enoch and .elijah)
Yes there will be a resurrection which you call a 'rapture' but I do read in my bible about that and scripture does not teach 7 years tribulation for only people living here and now remember revelation was written by John way back to the church, John was witness to Jesus when he was actually here on earth before destruction of Jerusalem and the temple...if you go to Israel the temple is not actually there is it. You wont find the holy of holies there because God is dwelling in us..ie, body of Christ.
It is just what we see now is not all gentiles have come to Christ yet has they worldwide. So what the timing is, we dont know only God knows, however God knows how many people will enter the kingdom and He has specified a number of israelites from each tribe, and this is for all time, not just today. All you need to understand is Jesus has opened heavens gates so that we can enter in and that is the hope we have. We can enter that rest as it says in Hebrews, we dont need to be in limbo as today is the day of salvation.
Before Jesus came we had no way of knowing that paradise existed, and none of us could directly communicate with God except his chosen people in israel, before Jesus made a way.
So some of what you say @Dave M makes sense but some of it I think you have picked up by teachers but you need to search scripture to see if it is so. I believe in Jesus Christ his life, death and resurrection. Christians arent only christians cos they believe they are special and everyone else is going to hell and die and be 'left behind' as many rapture proponents talk about .. this just smacks of smugness and it also is the reverse of what the bible talks about cos the righteous are actually not going to be removed...it is the wicked who are taken away!!!
we are christians because we believe in Jesus. And do what Jesus says.
Please be careful and have discernement over different teachings that people expound..search the scripture to see if things are so, dont believe every spirit but test them.
My devotion today talked about wisdom..and also there will be people who try and say the emperor has new clothes...but dont be scammed.
Last edited by a moderator:
Loyal
What is the Tribulation? How do we know the Tribulation will last seven years?
An understanding of Daniel 9:24-27 is necessary in order to understand the purpose and time of the tribulation. This passage speaks of 70 weeks that have been declared against “your people.” Daniel's people are the Jews, the nation of Israel, and Daniel 9:24 speaks of a period of time that God has given “to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.” God declares that “seventy sevens” will fulfill all these things. This is 70 sevens of years, or 490 years. (Some translations refer to 70 weeks of years.) This is confirmed by another part of this passage in Daniel. In verses 25 and 26, Daniel is told that the Messiah will be cut off after “seven sevens and sixty-two sevens” (69 total), beginning with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. In other words, 69 sevens of years (483 years) after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, the Messiah will be cut off. Biblical historians confirm that 483 years passed from the time of the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the time when Jesus was crucified. Most Christian scholars, regardless of their view of eschatology (future things/events), have the above understanding of Daniel's 70 sevens.
With 483 years having passed from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the cutting off of the Messiah, this leaves one seven-year period to be fulfilled in terms of Daniel 9:24: “to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.” This final seven-year period is known as the tribulation period—it is a time when God finishes judging Israel for its sin.
An understanding of Daniel 9:24-27 is necessary in order to understand the purpose and time of the tribulation. This passage speaks of 70 weeks that have been declared against “your people.” Daniel's people are the Jews, the nation of Israel, and Daniel 9:24 speaks of a period of time that God has given “to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.” God declares that “seventy sevens” will fulfill all these things. This is 70 sevens of years, or 490 years. (Some translations refer to 70 weeks of years.) This is confirmed by another part of this passage in Daniel. In verses 25 and 26, Daniel is told that the Messiah will be cut off after “seven sevens and sixty-two sevens” (69 total), beginning with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. In other words, 69 sevens of years (483 years) after the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, the Messiah will be cut off. Biblical historians confirm that 483 years passed from the time of the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the time when Jesus was crucified. Most Christian scholars, regardless of their view of eschatology (future things/events), have the above understanding of Daniel's 70 sevens.
With 483 years having passed from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the cutting off of the Messiah, this leaves one seven-year period to be fulfilled in terms of Daniel 9:24: “to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.” This final seven-year period is known as the tribulation period—it is a time when God finishes judging Israel for its sin.
Loyal
The pre... mid... post... rapture has been debated here on TJ several times. I don't know the answer for sure, but I lean towards mid-trib.
Matt 24:29; "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30; "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
1 Thes 4:15; For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1 Thes 4:16; For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1 Thes 4:17; Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
Matt 24:29; "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30; "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
1 Thes 4:15; For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1 Thes 4:16; For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1 Thes 4:17; Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
Loyal
Yes I can respect all thoughts on the matter, I lean towards pre tribulation, I reason this because of a few things, like the reason for tribulation seems to be all about the Jewish nation and judgement to them and finally so they come back to Christ, has nothing to do with the church is my thought not sure though, . Paul speaks of the church not having to go through the wrath of God which I am thinking is the tribulation IMO very interesting topic for sure with no definitive answer fun to specualte
1Th. 1:10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.
1Th. 5:1 Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you.
1Th. 5:2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.
1Th. 5:3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.
1Th. 5:4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
1Th. 5:5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
1Th. 5:6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
1Th. 5:7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
1Th. 5:8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th. 5:9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th. 5:10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.
Rev 3-10 Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.
1Th. 1:10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.
1Th. 5:1 Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you.
1Th. 5:2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.
1Th. 5:3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.
1Th. 5:4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
1Th. 5:5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
1Th. 5:6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
1Th. 5:7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
1Th. 5:8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th. 5:9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th. 5:10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.
Rev 3-10 Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.
Loyal
another aspect of the pre-trib theory that seems to strengthen the theory is that God has a history in the bible of sparing the righteous from his wrath.
1. Noah and his family spared from the flood.
2. Lot spared from the destruction of sodom
Of course there are weakness in the pre- trib as well the bible does not come out and tell plainly that is for sure, so we will have to wait and see. at least if we do have to go through the tribulation we do know what is going to take place, anyone notice the coexist movement that is taking place now?? anyone else think that is the foundations being laid for a one world religion?
1. Noah and his family spared from the flood.
2. Lot spared from the destruction of sodom
Of course there are weakness in the pre- trib as well the bible does not come out and tell plainly that is for sure, so we will have to wait and see.
at least if we do have to go through the tribulation we do know what is going to take place, anyone notice the coexist movement that is taking place now?? anyone else think that is the foundations being laid for a one world religion?
Active
All religions aim to be a one world religion... way back just after Noahs flood the children of men only had one language and built a city and a tower whos top would reach to heaven...
Except God confused the languages so they could not.
Think of the cities today almost every one if them has a tower now.
I dont think God is impressed with these towers!
Wrath...is different from tribulation. Jesus says in this world you will have trouble, but take heart I have overcome the world. The christian life is not always going to be an easy life. But tribulations refine us, they show us what we are made of.
Gods wrath is for unbelivers. Think of it this way..Noah was in the ark but he still had to endure 40 days and nights of flooding, and years before that, probably ridicule from everyone else..why are you building an ark? He had tribulation and he witnessed Gods wrath on everyone else. It wasnt as if he was spirited away.
Lot...was rescued from sodom and gomorrah but he also had tribulation, he was vexed by all the unrighteousness in that city and even his daughters were affected by sinful lifestyle. He saw Gods wrath too and it hit close to him as his wife was not spared.
Some of this rapture teaching seems to give the impression that christians will vanish into some hidy hole having a holiday while God is being wrathful. All I can say is thats wishful thinking...we are sheltered and find refuge in Him but we arent made invisible! You only have to look outisde to realise it actually does rains on the righteous and unrighteous alike. Christians arent living in this little bubble.
Except God confused the languages so they could not.
Think of the cities today almost every one if them has a tower now.
I dont think God is impressed with these towers!
Wrath...is different from tribulation. Jesus says in this world you will have trouble, but take heart I have overcome the world. The christian life is not always going to be an easy life. But tribulations refine us, they show us what we are made of.
Gods wrath is for unbelivers. Think of it this way..Noah was in the ark but he still had to endure 40 days and nights of flooding, and years before that, probably ridicule from everyone else..why are you building an ark? He had tribulation and he witnessed Gods wrath on everyone else. It wasnt as if he was spirited away.
Lot...was rescued from sodom and gomorrah but he also had tribulation, he was vexed by all the unrighteousness in that city and even his daughters were affected by sinful lifestyle. He saw Gods wrath too and it hit close to him as his wife was not spared.
Some of this rapture teaching seems to give the impression that christians will vanish into some hidy hole having a holiday while God is being wrathful. All I can say is thats wishful thinking...we are sheltered and find refuge in Him but we arent made invisible! You only have to look outisde to realise it actually does rains on the righteous and unrighteous alike. Christians arent living in this little bubble.
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Loyal
Lanolin said
"Some of this rapture teaching seems to give the impression that christians will vanish into some hidy hole having a holiday while God is being wrathful. All I can say is thats wishful thinking...we are sheltered and find refuge in Him but we arent made invisible! You only have to look outisde to realise it actually does rains on the righteous and unrighteous alike. Christians arent living in this little bubble".
HI Lanolin Pre-trib rapture theory believe exactly that, all believers will be removed from the tribulation period referred to in the book of revelation when God pours his wrath down on the world one last time. This is often referred to as the great tribulation and has nothing to do with the tribulations and trials a christian goes through in life. It has a lot of support from most of the greatest theologians of today. Most agree that the rapture will take place it is the timing that most dis agree on.
you can read more about it here if you are not familiar with the rapture What are the strengths and weaknesses of the pretribulational view of the rapture (pretribulationism)?
The one world religion I am referring to is the one that the anti Christ is trying to establish in order to do away with the one true religion of Jesus Christ, I believe the Coexist movement is the foundation of this. He establishes it during the 7 year period in the book of revelation and has a statue built that talks and walks and demands all people worship it. this is at the 3.5 year mark in tribulation in the book of revelation, and is the halfway point when Jesus will return after this happens. TO understand this a little more you may find the following article helpful What is the abomination of desolation?.
Matthew 24-14“So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand)
The bible is one book you have to take the new and the OT and NT in order to understand eschatology hope those help, when you study the book of revelation it is I very good idea to study the book of Daniel at the same time they go together.
Lot's wife was spared technicallyshe chose not obey and therefore was killed, if she did not look back she would of NOT been killed and she would of been spared, the lesson here is obedience to what God says..
have a great day and Praise Jesus in all we do
"Some of this rapture teaching seems to give the impression that christians will vanish into some hidy hole having a holiday while God is being wrathful. All I can say is thats wishful thinking...we are sheltered and find refuge in Him but we arent made invisible! You only have to look outisde to realise it actually does rains on the righteous and unrighteous alike. Christians arent living in this little bubble".
HI Lanolin Pre-trib rapture theory believe exactly that, all believers will be removed from the tribulation period referred to in the book of revelation when God pours his wrath down on the world one last time. This is often referred to as the great tribulation and has nothing to do with the tribulations and trials a christian goes through in life. It has a lot of support from most of the greatest theologians of today. Most agree that the rapture will take place it is the timing that most dis agree on.
you can read more about it here if you are not familiar with the rapture What are the strengths and weaknesses of the pretribulational view of the rapture (pretribulationism)?
The one world religion I am referring to is the one that the anti Christ is trying to establish in order to do away with the one true religion of Jesus Christ, I believe the Coexist movement is the foundation of this. He establishes it during the 7 year period in the book of revelation and has a statue built that talks and walks and demands all people worship it. this is at the 3.5 year mark in tribulation in the book of revelation, and is the halfway point when Jesus will return after this happens. TO understand this a little more you may find the following article helpful What is the abomination of desolation?.
Matthew 24-14“So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand)
The bible is one book you have to take the new and the OT and NT in order to understand eschatology hope those help, when you study the book of revelation it is I very good idea to study the book of Daniel at the same time they go together.
Lot's wife was spared technically
she chose not obey and therefore was killed, if she did not look back she would of NOT been killed and she would of been spared, the lesson here is obedience to what God says..have a great day and Praise Jesus in all we do
Loyal
another view on the rapture from one of my favorite teachers and world–renowned author Randy Alcorn
What is your position on the timing of the rapture? - Resources - Eternal Perspective Ministries
"If forced to take a position, I personally think the best arguments lie in historic premillennialism, which believes in one return of Christ rather than a rapture, followed by a physical return seven years later. That’s the position taken by the majority of believers throughout church history (along with the amillennial position). I’m intimately familiar with the arguments for the pre-tribulational rapture, as it was the position I was taught in Bible college and seminary, and which I used to teach others. It could certainly be correct, but I believe the biblical evidence is stronger for a single return of Christ at the end of the tribulation period. Could I be wrong? Of course. Could pre-tribulationalists be wrong? Of course".
one thing is clear, you can only speculate you can not confirm any one position any one who does that is only fooling themselves, so I respect all peoples thoughts on it.
What is your position on the timing of the rapture? - Resources - Eternal Perspective Ministries
"If forced to take a position, I personally think the best arguments lie in historic premillennialism, which believes in one return of Christ rather than a rapture, followed by a physical return seven years later. That’s the position taken by the majority of believers throughout church history (along with the amillennial position). I’m intimately familiar with the arguments for the pre-tribulational rapture, as it was the position I was taught in Bible college and seminary, and which I used to teach others. It could certainly be correct, but I believe the biblical evidence is stronger for a single return of Christ at the end of the tribulation period. Could I be wrong? Of course. Could pre-tribulationalists be wrong? Of course".
one thing is clear, you can only speculate you can not confirm any one position any one who does that is only fooling themselves, so I respect all peoples thoughts on it.
Active
I dont speculate on things Jesus have given assurance of blessed salvation. He died and rose again...we who believe will also.
I'm not a theologian just read the Bible.
What book of Daniel and all the other books of the prophets show is the prophecies of Jesus which speak of Him. They all point to Him.
If you ask him He can open your understanding to scripture.
I didnt go to a seminary so cant really comment on what they teach there. It does seem they teach a lot of nonsense at times thats why theres so much confusion over pretrib and midtrib and aftertrib and whatevertrib.
Its ridiculous because how can people say christians will have seven years of this or that there are people that dont even have seven years because nobody knows the exact times appointed for each and every individual soul. Only God knows this! If people think about this, according to these theories nobody would ever die and we would all be waiting around for Jesus to return but people die everyday. Christians die. We are not exempt.
It will be an interesting exercise to search scripture and count how many had faith in the Bible, if you want to do some research, book of Hebrews mentions many names in chapter 11. How many of these faithful saints will we see in the kingdom, starting with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
I'm not a theologian just read the Bible.
What book of Daniel and all the other books of the prophets show is the prophecies of Jesus which speak of Him. They all point to Him.
If you ask him He can open your understanding to scripture.
I didnt go to a seminary so cant really comment on what they teach there. It does seem they teach a lot of nonsense at times thats why theres so much confusion over pretrib and midtrib and aftertrib and whatevertrib.
Its ridiculous because how can people say christians will have seven years of this or that there are people that dont even have seven years because nobody knows the exact times appointed for each and every individual soul. Only God knows this! If people think about this, according to these theories nobody would ever die and we would all be waiting around for Jesus to return but people die everyday. Christians die. We are not exempt.
It will be an interesting exercise to search scripture and count how many had faith in the Bible, if you want to do some research, book of Hebrews mentions many names in chapter 11. How many of these faithful saints will we see in the kingdom, starting with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
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Loyal
Actually anyone who reads the bible is a theologian according to the dictionary, so yes you are a theologian .
the definition of theologian
a person versed in theology, especially Christian theology; divine.
I wish you would not use words like "ridiculous" in regards to the study of eschatology, very disappointing to see a fellow believer speaking in such a negative way in regards to Christ return.
Yes the book of Hebrews is often referred to as the "faith hall of fame", very familiar with it, do you know the author of the book of Hebrews?
I was not asking you to speculate on salvation, I hope you do not think that is what I was talking about, when I said its fun to speculate because I was talking about eschatology, which every believer should be aware of, and you must know that is what Daniels book is all about.
the definition of theologian
a person versed in theology, especially Christian theology; divine.
I wish you would not use words like "ridiculous" in regards to the study of eschatology, very disappointing to see a fellow believer speaking in such a negative way in regards to Christ return.
Yes the book of Hebrews is often referred to as the "faith hall of fame", very familiar with it, do you know the author of the book of Hebrews?
I was not asking you to speculate on salvation, I hope you do not think that is what I was talking about, when I said its fun to speculate because I was talking about eschatology, which every believer should be aware of, and you must know that is what Daniels book is all about.
Active
It could be both. They start the rebellion to the anti Christ which leads to Armageddon. I would imagine most be killed but it is very likely some lead the Jewish rebellion and survive.
However there is a different perspective based on an understanding of the purpose for the millennium. What is the purpose of the millennium? I believe its purpose is to test those who have not yet been tested. As the devil is released to test mankind for the absolutely last time Rev 20:7. As such these witnesses have no need of living on with mortal bodies, unless perhaps they live on among those who re-populate the earth. Which is also unlikely as their purpose seems specific. I would imagine them remaining celibate as Paul was.
Interesting topic Dave :smile:
(ok, see you solved it in post # 7, sweet)