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1 John Epistles - Discussion - Are we SINNERS when Saved?

Hekuran
Loyal

Hekuran

#101
You've got only half the message about sin that John was teaching the church. Here's the extract where he first introduces his concern about sin in the church

This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light and in him there is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him while we are walking in darkness, we lie and do not do what is true; but if we walk in the light as he himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he who is faithful and just will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

There are two main statements in this. The first, as you say, is that anyone who has fellowship with Christ does not sin. You can't mix darkness and light. The second is the reality that only the self-deceived in the church say they have no sin.

John is deliberately putting these contradictory statements together.

It's clear from later on in the passage that deceivers had entered the church and thrown the believers into confusion with false teaching. From the content of the letter, it's reasonable to believe that it was their teaching about sin that caused the problems. Perhaps 'immorality doesn't matter if we live by grace' or something of that nature.

So first is the clear teaching that a sinning Christian is a living contradiction. You can't belong to the light yet walk in darkness. Second is the reality that we miss the mark all time.

The good news - the way out of the contradiction - is Jesus himself

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

So we must urgently deal with sin wherever we find it in ourselves. And we can trust Jesus whenever we fall short.

The other major theme in the letter is the command for the brothers and sisters to love one another. These two concerns take up almost the whole content of the letter.
 
D
Member

David1954

#104
I don't mean to obfuscate. Catholics and Orthodox and Protestants were never Christians. In fact Catholics killed off every Christian they could find for centuries.
 
Hekuran
Loyal

Hekuran

#109
I'll try a practical example. John says: "If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person?"

What would you say about a Christian who has the means and opportunity to give to a brother or sister in need and yet fails to be generous? Have they sinned or not? How should they address this before God?
 
D
Member

David1954

#110
You must be born again. So every Catholic and Orthodox and Protestant pronounces themselves born again. Without ever knowing what it is.

What exactly I am is born again.
 
D
Member

David1954

#111
No one who is born of God sins. He cannot sin. If you see a brother commit a sin, we know that no one who is born of God sins.
 
D
Member

David1954

#112
So I see a hobo on the street begging for money.

I say, Hobo, go **** yourself.

Catholics and Orthodox and Protestants will say I sinned.

But, wait... God says I cannot sin!
 
Hekuran
Loyal

Hekuran

#113
But he might say, “You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.”
 
C
Member

CareGiver

#114
Dave M said:
we ourselfs are made righteous only because of Jesus in us, I think it is very important to Give Jesus the credit here and not to claim it ourselfs, (not saying that you are)
Click to expand...

In what respect are you saying we are made righteous? We should understand the difference between a "righteous" believer as being someone who practices righteousness, and a believer being declared righteous by having the righteousness of Christ imputed unto them when they are born of God, which does not happen until the believer comes to repentance or overcomes the world and the sins of the flesh. In Acts 10:22 Cornelius the Roman centurion is described as being a righteous man, and that was before the Spirit of Christ came upon him. The word righteous (G1342) is an adjective describing someone to be as they should be in respect to practicing righteousness. A "sinner" is not born "of God" until they are seen as a believer who has come to repentance by overcoming the world (lust of the flesh, lust of the eye, and the pride of life) and the sins of the flesh (1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21) when the righteousness of Jesus Christ is imputed unto them by being quickened together with the Spirit of Jesus Christ, Who is the life in and through us.

Thayer Definition: G1342
1) righteous, observing divine laws
1a) in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God
1a1) of those who seem to themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves to be righteous, who pride themselves in their virtues, whether real or imagined
1a2) innocent, faultless, guiltless
1a3) used of him whose way of thinking, feeling, and acting is wholly conformed to the will of God, and who therefore needs no rectification in the heart or life
1a3a) only Christ truly
1a4) approved of or acceptable of God
1b) in a narrower sense, rendering to each his due and that in a judicial sense, passing just judgment on others, whether expressed in words or shown by the manner of dealing with them
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G1349
Citing in TDNT: 2:182, 168

And there are different ways we can look at "cannot sin." A believer cannot sin because sin is transgression of the Law, and we cannot transgress the Law when there is not Law to transgress because we are under the grace of God for our faith.

Another way we "cannot sin" is when we are born of God, we have died and no longer live, but are one with the Holy Spirit of God the Son and God the Father (Eternal life within us) Who cannot sin.

There can be sin in our life as we spiritually mature and are continually being purified of unrighteousness, but it is no longer we who sin, but sin that dwells in our flesh (Romans 7:20).

That's why believers should work out their own salvation (Philippians 2:12) , or, strive to enter in at the strait gate (Luke 13:24).

Salvation is: (1) Being forgiven of past trespasses and sins,
(2) Not being condemned by the curse of the Law by being under the grace of God for our faith in Jesus Christ,
(3) Being saved from death by the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ as the life in and through us,
(4) Being purged/purified/cleansed of unrighteousness by the workings of the Holy Spirit in our life to be made holy.

..............and the "dead in Christ" shall rise first: (1 Thessalonians 4:16)

May GOD bless,.........
 
S
Loyal

Sue D.

#115
It Almost sounds like you're suggesting salvation through our works.

Scripture does need to be kept in context and allowed to say what it is saying and not being adjusted by 'us' to say something that it isn't really saying.

''we' Do need to be in God's Word consistently and be open to the leading of the Holy Spirit in our lives. He will let 'us' know when something needs to be corrected. But for every 'thing' we Do 'adjust' , there will always be something else coming along To adjust. Through Adam and Eve we Do have the propensity For sin/ sinning. Because of the cross -- we are no longer a Slave to sinning, But we still have the tendency towards sinning. And every so often we will end up giving in to some temptation or another.

And during some day or other, 'we' Might think to ourselves -- hmmm -- today I've been doing pretty good at Not sinning. And, there we go -- being prideful.

Even as believers -- we are very capable Of sinning.

I get a bit frustrated with other posters occasionally -- so I bow out for a bit and go do something else. And then get busy doing something and get sidetracked while I'm doing something else that should have been done. Hopefully THAT didn't sound Too confusing. Maybe more the concept of sins of Ommission and well as sins of Commission.

Just sayin
 
C
Member

CareGiver

#116
Sue D. said:
It Almost sounds like you're suggesting salvation through our works.

Scripture does need to be kept in context and allowed to say what it is saying and not being adjusted by 'us' to say something that it isn't really saying.

''we' Do need to be in God's Word consistently and be open to the leading of the Holy Spirit in our lives. He will let 'us' know when something needs to be corrected. But for every 'thing' we Do 'adjust' , there will always be something else coming along To adjust. Through Adam and Eve we Do have the propensity For sin/ sinning. Because of the cross -- we are no longer a Slave to sinning, But we still have the tendency towards sinning. And every so often we will end up giving in to some temptation or another.

And during some day or other, 'we' Might think to ourselves -- hmmm -- today I've been doing pretty good at Not sinning. And, there we go -- being prideful.

Even as believers -- we are very capable Of sinning.

I get a bit frustrated with other posters occasionally -- so I bow out for a bit and go do something else. And then get busy doing something and get sidetracked while I'm doing something else that should have been done. Hopefully THAT didn't sound Too confusing. Maybe more the concept of sins of Ommission and well as sins of Commission.

Just sayin
Click to expand...
It Almost sounds like you're suggesting salvation through our works.
The Law as a means of being made right with God is done away with because Jesus Christ became a final sacrifice for sins to atone for sin and to redeem us from the curse of the Law so that we are delivered from condemnation by the curse of the Law and forgiven of trespasses and sins by the grace of God for our faith when we repent and confess our sins as we trust in Jesus Christ to have our sins forgiven. The righteousness of the Law is fulfilled in us by Jesus Christ being formed in us as we are purged/purified/cleansed of all sin/unrighteousness/iniquity/depravity by sanctification of the Spirit to make us holy when sanctified wholly by being anointed with the Holy Spirit of God to "put on" immortality. God saves us by forgiving us of our sins (transgressions/trespasses), and cleansing us our our sin (unrighteousness/iniquity) by the grace of God for our faith, as we repent by confessing and turning from the sin in our life to overcome the world. We are not saved by the "works of the Law," the offering sacrifices to be forgiven of sins and the following of procedures for the cleansing of sin, neither are we saved by doing deeds (works) of goodness unto being saved by earning the favor of God for our works of good deeds.

Scripture does need to be kept in context and allowed to say what it is saying and not being adjusted by 'us' to say something that it isn't really saying.
We were trying to say, the meaning of a verse/passage can be misunderstood if we do not understand the meaning of the words.

Because of the cross -- we are no longer a Slave to sinning
We remain a slave to sin when we live in it until we repent and are cleansed of each particular sin in our life. We are forgiven of past sins committed, we are free from condemnation by the curse of the Law for sin, but we are not free from the sin in our life until we have been cleansed of it through our repentance and the workings of the Spirit with us in our life.

And during some day or other, 'we' Might think to ourselves -- hmmm -- today I've been doing pretty good at Not sinning. And, there we go -- being prideful.
Self-esteem us good and it is not being prideful to feel good about oneself for doing a good job. We should not be prideful in a haughty manner as to put our-self above others.

We are trying to get to the place of having a full confidence of understanding to share the difference between being saved by being quickened together WITH Christ (when forgiven of all trespasses) and being conformed to the likeness of His death to be born of GOD by being baptized with the Spirit INTO Christ Jesus and His death to be raised incorruptible. We are asking our-self if this interpretation is accurate and if this did/does pertain only to first century "Gentiles" without Christ and "Israelites", or to believers today. We are open to thoughts from whoever.

We never do our best, because we can always do better,
Take care, and may GOD bless,............with love in Christ
 
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