“Temporal Salvation!?”

[james1523]

What's the difference between deserting Christ and abandoning his grace? What's the difference between snubbing the sacrifice of Christ and turning back to earthly sacrifices?

Paul is addressing their experience of Christ for sanctification, not their position in Christ for justification. It is falling away from Christ in the sense of the experience of His grace for sanctification. Throughout Galatians and starting from chapter 1, Paul addresses them as brothers and sisters, children and sons of God, heirs. This was their position in Christ that Paul never denied. Perhaps the false teachers were not saved however.

They did not need to repent and believe in the gospel again, being water baptized - they were already saved. They only had to stand fast in liberty and not be entangled again in bondage (Gal 5:1).

 

[spirit1st]

Water Can not wash away even one sin . Only His blood can wash away sins.


Eph_2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Heb_10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,


1Jn_1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Rev_1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,


Rev_12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.


Eph_4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Mar_1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

Mat_3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Lots of people are teaching the carnal work of water baptism is more important than the Spiritual baptism our LORD does at salvation.

We can have salvation without the carnal one. But we cannot have salvation without the Spiritual one He does.

Act_10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
These were already GOD holy children ,before the water baptism .

Good to have both if we can ?

Living water is the most important and the only must one.

 

[Sargento]

Hi NetChaplain...

Humm... ok... I think (I think) I understand where you're at.
However, to be safe, I'm gonna ask you another question.


Lets imagine a case in where a christian (a true christian) knows God, but he for some reason cannot maintain a good conduct before the world... for example, he WANTS to please God and never sin, but he just does not have the strength for it... he loves God but he's simply too weak, and although he hates sin he cannot resist it... he does not sins in his heart (because e loves God and despises sin) but in his works (because his body is still a slave of sin and craves sin).


In other words... can someone be a true believer and love God and still sin everyday of his live since he was born until the day he dies?

 

[DHC]

The book of Galatians is as much proof of eternal security as any. Yes they were bewitched and foolish, but God never abandoned them.

Hello James.

In reference to your post #16.

You stated that "The book of Galatians is as much proof of eternal security as any".

Well James, I have selected a number of verses from the letter to the Galatians.
That certainly do not provide the reader with the impression of eternal security.

Galatians 4:11
I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

Paul is very concerned that they will not stay with Christ.

Galatians 4:19
My children, with whom I am again in labor until Christ is formed in you.

Paul has to labor again with the Galatians until Christ is once again established.
They obviously had strayed from Christ.

Galatians 5:1
It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

Keep standing firm in Christ is not an exhortation of OSAS. Rather it is a serious
warning that the Galatians must maintain the commitment to Christ.

Galatians 5:4
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Here is the proof that a person may fall away, fall from Christ. Attempting to
justify oneself by the law is a fatal mistake. Severed is the word used James.

Galatians 5:7
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Galatians 6:7
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.

What other conclusion is possible, the Galatian church will be severed from Christ.
If they persist in pursuing justification by the law.

Simple and clear instruction. What you sow you reap!

 

[Sargento]

Simple and clear instruction. What you sow you reap!

Hi DHC...

If "for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap" is valid in the matter of salvation who will than be saved then?
Who can reap eternal live for what he as sowed?

Is the anyone so pure in works who can expect salvation from it (if works could generate life)?

When Paul says this he is not talking about salvation, but he is talking about the way we should live ... this is the growing or sanctification or holiness of the reborn (the one that is son of God) ... if you play with fire God will make you learn it burns... if you invest in sin he will grow and take control, then we can only wait God's rebuke like the father who loves his son and teaches him.

Paul is talking about the teaching of God...

Revelation 3:19
"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.

Hebrews 12:2-14
And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:
"My son, do not despise the 3 chastening of the LORD,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives."
If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what m son is there whom a father does not chasten? But if you are without chastening, n of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to o the Father of spirits and live? For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields q the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
Therefore r strengthen the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees, and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be dislocated, but rather be healed. Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord:​

This is the growth and purpose of the reborn on earth... Salvation is never jeopardized.

 

[NetChaplain]

Lets imagine a case in where a christian (a true christian) knows God, but he for some reason cannot maintain a good conduct before the world

Hi Serg - I would think that an uncontrollable conduct means the absence of the Holy Spirit, which means rebirth has yet to occur. To be without the Spirit is to be without the Lord Jesus (Rom 8:9). To have the Holy Spirit would mean He is causing you not to be out of conduct (Gal 5:17).

he WANTS to please God and never sin,

The Father pleasures in our desires for His will, which can only come as the He continually causes this in the believer (Phil 2:13).
The desire for sin will not be within a believer thus his sins are never willful (Heb 10:26). If someone says they want to be in the Lord Jesus and does not yield to God to receive faith in Christ, his ways will not change, because this requires the addition of the new nature which the Spirit uses in the believer for control.

 

[B-A-C]

Psa 51:11; Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
Psa 51:12; Restore to me the joy of Your salvation And sustain me with a willing spirit.

Where do we get the idea, that once we have the Holy Spirit that's the end of the story. Why does anyone think we lose freedom of choice after we get the Holy Spirit?
The Bible makes it clear, you can still choose to leave "the faith" if you so desire to.

2 Pet 2:20; For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
2 Pet 2:21; For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
2 Pet 2:22; It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

The Bible makes it clear we can fall away, even after we have received (or tasted) the Holy Spirit.

Heb 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Where did this notion that we are unable to resist the Holy Spirit come from?

Acts 7:51; "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.

2 Cor 1:22; who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
Eph 1:13; In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 4:30; Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

"sealed by the Holy Spirit", what does that mean?
A sealed letter might be handled by several people. Your sister wrote the letter and "sealed it" in an envelope. Your mom put a stamp on it and took it to the post office.
The postal worker, sorted it into distributions. The truck driver drove it to your town, the postman delivered it to your house, your wife set it on the table. It remained sealed all of this time.

In the olden times, a wax seal meant the letter had not been opened. Maybe a courier delivered the message, or a herald presented the message, but no one had opened the letter as long as the seal
was intact. However the intended recipient of the letter was free to open the letter any time he wanted to. And so it is with us. God won't leave us or forsake us, he won't unseal his own letter,
No one can pluck us from his hand, but we are free to open the seal and walk away. I'm a pretty big guy, I played football in school. I won't let any guy take my wife from me. But if she ever wanted to walk away on her own...

How can a shepherd have a sheep that goes astray? Oh he will go look for the sheep and try to get it back into the flock if possible.
Mat 18:12 "What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying?
But it's interesting, that even after he becomes a sheep, he still has the ability to stray. Some say, they never had the faith in the first place. But we can stray from the faith.

1 Tim6:21; which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith. Grace be with you.
2 Pet 2:15; forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

 

[B-A-C]

What if a woman went into Wal*Mart and said, I'd like to exchange this dress for another one. The person behind the counter would look at her and say, ok, what dress are you returning?
The lady would say, I don't have one to return, I just want to exchange for a new dress. I doubt this would fly very well. The point being, we can't exchange something we don't have.

Rom 1:25; For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

The Bible makes it clear we are able to exchange the truth of God for a lie. we are able to stray, we are able to fall away from the faith.

1 Tim 4:1; But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

Notice that verses doesn't say fall away from "a" faith, it says fall away from "the" faith. What is the faith? Aren't we saved by faith?

1 Tim 5:15; for some have already turned aside to follow Satan.

Turned aside from what? If we aren't following Jesus, we are already following Satan. How can we turn aside from Satan to follow satan?

The Bible mentions over and over again that people will be deceived and led astray to follow false doctrines, false teachers, and false Christs.
How can they be deceived into following a false doctrine or teaching, if they are already following a lie? If they are already un-saved, what difference does it make if they follow a different
doctrine? So maybe the Bible means they were deceived into the following the truth? I don't think so. So the only option left is that those following the right way were deceived to follow false doctrines and false teachers.

 

[Sargento]

Hi Chaplain...

Hi Serg - I would think that an uncontrollable conduct means the absence of the Holy Spirit, which means rebirth has yet to occur. To be without the Spirit is to be without the Lord Jesus. To have the Holy Spirit would mean He is causing you not to be out of conduct.

Gal 5:17 does not say that the Spirit causes you not to be out of conduct, but it says that He FIGHTS against the flesh... so there is a fight and two wills do exist!!
... if having the Holy Spirit wold cause me not to be out of conduct there wold be no fight and I would never sin again...

And that in fact happens in the spirit of the reborn, but not in the flesh... not in his body which is still slave of sin although the spirit is slave of Christ... therefore the spirit the spirit (of the reborn obviously) desires Christ but the flesh desires sin.

Paul explains it carefully to the Romans...

Romans 7:13-25
"Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, n sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. o For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that p in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For Iq delight in the law of God according to r the inward man. 23 But s I see another law in t my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me u from this body of death? 25 v I thank God - through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then,with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin."​

Conduct has nothing to do with being or not being a reborn... often the best conduits of this world belong to atheists and unbelievers (which desire to justify them selves before Man - appear just).

The reborn is only noticeable by his faith not conduct... and faith is only revealed by the preaching of the gospel which separates the true faith (gift of God) from the false ones (forged by free will).

The Father pleasures in our desires for His will, which can only come as the He continually causes this in the believer .
The desire for sin will not be within a believer thus his sins are never willful. If someone says they want to be in the Lord Jesus and does not yield to God to receive faith in Christ, his ways will not change, because this requires the addition of the new nature which the Spirit uses in the believer for control.

Most a this i already answered above and was explained by Paul... the reborn cannot desire evil, he is UNABLE to do so because his will belongs to Christ like the Eve's (church) desire was ordered by God to belong to Adam (Christ), but the reborn is in flesh body dominated by the will of sin, so many times (under the love of God that want's us to learn to discern the intelligence of sin) we do not have the strength and sin takes over our conduct (never our will or spirit because we are reborn from indestructible seed). .. this happens so that we learn to depend entirely on Him and never think that we can do anything on our own.

We do not desire evil, but our flesh does... however we, the sons of God are not the flesh but we are the spirit like our Father and our older brother (Christ).


About "and does not yield to God to receive faith in Christ":

No one can yield to God BEFORE having faith... because the natural man cannot believe in God...

Corinthians 2:14
"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. "​

If he does not believe in God, and HE is foolishness to him how can he yield to HIM??

If someone runs to Christ it is because he is already been reborn and believes in HIM.... and obviously have faith.
Even if someone not reborn looks like he is believing in God or running towards Christ he is doing it for a idol that he created in his mind, not GOD... only a reborn can accept God has HE is and rejects anything else.

 

[Sargento]

Psa 51:11; Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
Psa 51:12; Restore to me the joy of Your salvation And sustain me with a willing spirit.

Where do we get the idea, that once we have the Holy Spirit that's the end of the story. Why does anyone think we lose freedom of choice after we get the Holy Spirit?
The Bible makes it clear, you can still choose to leave "the faith" if you so desire to.

2 Pet 2:20; For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
2 Pet 2:21; For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
2 Pet 2:22; It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

The Bible makes it clear we can fall away, even after we have received (or tasted) the Holy Spirit.

Heb 6:4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Where did this notion that we are unable to resist the Holy Spirit come from?

Acts 7:51; "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.

2 Cor 1:22; who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
Eph 1:13; In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 4:30; Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

"sealed by the Holy Spirit", what does that mean?
A sealed letter might be handled by several people. Your sister wrote the letter and "sealed it" in an envelope. Your mom put a stamp on it and took it to the post office.
The postal worker, sorted it into distributions. The truck driver drove it to your town, the postman delivered it to your house, your wife set it on the table. It remained sealed all of this time.

In the olden times, a wax seal meant the letter had not been opened. Maybe a courier delivered the message, or a herald presented the message, but no one had opened the letter as long as the seal
was intact. However the intended recipient of the letter was free to open the letter any time he wanted to. And so it is with us. God won't leave us or forsake us, he won't unseal his own letter,
No one can pluck us from his hand, but we are free to open the seal and walk away. I'm a pretty big guy, I played football in school. I won't let any guy take my wife from me. But if she ever wanted to walk away on her own...

How can a shepherd have a sheep that goes astray? Oh he will go look for the sheep and try to get it back into the flock if possible.
Mat 18:12 "What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying?
But it's interesting, that even after he becomes a sheep, he still has the ability to stray. Some say, they never had the faith in the first place. But we can stray from the faith.

1 Tim6:21; which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith. Grace be with you.
2 Pet 2:15; forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

B-A-C...

I don't know if you are talking to me but i answer briefly...

No... no one can receive salvation and than loose it because salvation is not a reward or a salary ... it was not achieved so it can loosed... but it is GIVEN (or denied).

You can look like you are saved, or appear to accept Jesus, but in good time God will reveal the earths of each by the word of gospel ....

The gospel needs to be preached to everyone ... some will be saved by it, and some will be condemn ... that's how every one "knows" the gospel and some return to HIS OWN vomit... but only the ones who believe in it, which are the ones who have eyes to see and hears to hear can KNOW the gospel and understand it for the gospel is GOD, and salvation is to know God.




About the quoting from Psalms... before Christ the Holy Spirit was temporary among man and then he wold be gone again because Christ had not yet send him to be with us forever.... the spirit came and do his work and then he wold be gone again.
But after Christ ascent to heaven HE sent us the Holy Spirit to live IN us forever.

However, even in Psalms we see that he does not relies in him self for the joy of salvation or the power of his own will... instead he asks God to give him that same good will (because God is the one who makes our will, not our selves) and joy because he understands that it is not in his hands!
And that wisdom came from having the Holy Spirit that was above him and made him understand it ...

David just reacted has any son of God under the constraint of the Holy Spirit would... he cried and ask for mercy from the one who sustained him and all his being.


However, if God seals someone has HIS son he can be sure that God loves him and will not ever leave him and that HIS love for HIS sons is not based on their good deeds or own virtues (as if everything did not come from God)...

 

[blackbear4110]

I have a problem with accepting this...not sure what to call it...the idea that Salvation, once obtained, can not be lost.

The Bible gives illustration that our relationship with Christ is like that of a marriage. Christ is our husband, and we are His bride. Yet, in keeping with the marriage illustration given to us in the Bible, marriage is intended to last forever and never be broken, but that does not mean there will never be a divorce. We have the opportunity to come to Christ, and we have the option to "divorce" or walk away from Him. As someone has already said, a good husband won't let anyone or anything take his wife away from him...but there is nothing he can do to stop her from walking away from him.

Another example someone has used is the fact that we are "Born Again", so therefore we can't be "un-born". Well, that's true. But once again we are using an illustration from the physical realm to explain the spiritual realm. So, in the physical, a person is born once. A person can not be un-born, nor can they return to their mother's womb or do anything to change the fact that they were born. But, there is a way to stop being alive...there is a way to put an end to that birth: death. Whether we go naturally, or by way of an accident, or even suicide...the point is, we stop living. We are no longer alive. Being born can't keep us from dying. Being born gives us the opportunity to die (because something that isn't alive can't die).
Flipping back to the spiritual realm, when we come to Christ and accept His free gift of Salvation, we are "Born Again", this time spiritually. We become alive in Christ, and begin living for Him. No, we can't become "un-born". But I believe we can die spiritually. And once you're dead, you can't come back to life (unless God performs a miracle and raises the dead back to life, which is another subject). And I believe this is why Paul emphasized the importance of not falling away, of not severing ourselves from Christ. And why he said it is impossible for them to be brought back to repentance, in Hebrews 6:4-8.
You have one meeting with birth, you have one meeting with death. You can't be born, then die, then be born, then die...not to offend anyone, but I don't believe a person can be saved, then not saved, then saved, then not saved. Christianity is not a light switch. It is being brought to life, a lifestyle, a heart-change, becoming a new creature, being born again. If you have become "unsaved", then you have died spiritually, and there is no way to bring you back to "life" (unless God chooses to work a miracle, but again, that's a different subject).

 

[Sargento]

I have a problem with accepting this...not sure what to call it...the idea that Salvation, once obtained, can not be lost.

The Bible gives illustration that our relationship with Christ is like that of a marriage. Christ is our husband, and we are His bride. Yet, in keeping with the marriage illustration given to us in the Bible, marriage is intended to last forever and never be broken, but that does not mean there will never be a divorce. We have the opportunity to come to Christ, and we have the option to "divorce" or walk away from Him. As someone has already said, a good husband won't let anyone or anything take his wife away from him...but there is nothing he can do to stop her from walking away from him.

Another example someone has used is the fact that we are "Born Again", so therefore we can't be "un-born". Well, that's true. But once again we are using an illustration from the physical realm to explain the spiritual realm. So, in the physical, a person is born once. A person can not be un-born, nor can they return to their mother's womb or do anything to change the fact that they were born. But, there is a way to stop being alive...there is a way to put an end to that birth: death. Whether we go naturally, or by way of an accident, or even suicide...the point is, we stop living. We are no longer alive. Being born can't keep us from dying. Being born gives us the opportunity to die (because something that isn't alive can't die).
Flipping back to the spiritual realm, when we come to Christ and accept His free gift of Salvation, we are "Born Again", this time spiritually. We become alive in Christ, and begin living for Him. No, we can't become "un-born". But I believe we can die spiritually. And once you're dead, you can't come back to life (unless God performs a miracle and raises the dead back to life, which is another subject). And I believe this is why Paul emphasized the importance of not falling away, of not severing ourselves from Christ. And why he said it is impossible for them to be brought back to repentance, in Hebrews 6:4-8.
You have one meeting with birth, you have one meeting with death. You can't be born, then die, then be born, then die...not to offend anyone, but I don't believe a person can be saved, then not saved, then saved, then not saved. Christianity is not a light switch. It is being brought to life, a lifestyle, a heart-change, becoming a new creature, being born again. If you have become "unsaved", then you have died spiritually, and there is no way to bring you back to "life" (unless God chooses to work a miracle, but again, that's a different subject).

Hi Blackbear...

Sorry in advance for my english... if you don't understand something just ask and I will try to explain it again.

I understand what you're saying, but the question is that a man saved by Jesus does not wish to divorce HIM... that reborning that God makes in that man TURNS him into a son of God that loves God as his father and Jesus has his brother... THAT is the transformation of the reborn... without it no man can genuinely love God or Jesus.
But after that work (reborning) of God which happens the moment (not progressively) that someone hears the gospel and believes it (because God give him faith so he can believe) the will of that man CHANGES... all the old things passed and everything is new... what he thought were darkness after all is light, and where he saw light he can now see clearly see darkness after all, and all of this because now God give him eyes to see and ears to hear and he NO LONGER judges the world by flesh ways but by the spirit ways, not by appearance but by the truth... GOD made him a " little child Jesus" thats in growth until he reaches the perfect stature of man, his older brother Jesus.

This new man now starts to fear God because he now understands who HE really is, but loving HIM at the same time because GOD shows him how much HE loves him and what HE is doing ... and he starts to understand all the words of the apostles and Jesus because he now thinks the same way... he, and Jesus became one.

In this world man and woman can marry (became one) and divorce because it is a union that does symbolize Christ and the Church but it an carnal union in the flesh NOT in spirit; but the church and Christ REALLY do become one, and there's NOTHING that can divide them... the bride desires the groom and the grom desires the bride because GOD joined them and made them love one another.

Just like a natural man cannot choose to want Jesus (he does not even have the capacity to known HIM ), the reborn does not have the capacity to deny HIM... sure, each one of them can SAY they do (for whatever reason) but that does not changes his heart that is carnal or spiritual... the choice is not in the mouth nor in actions, it's in the heart.

Natural men are carnal so they desire the carnal ways (sin), reborned men are spiritual therefor they desire GOD... and no one has the power to dictates the direction of his heart, but is his heart that guides him.... and even if someone decide to hide his heart decision by changing their behavior that will not change his heart and who it belongs to... he may fool other man, but not GOD.

Just like a father or a mother does not loves his son because they choose (which would be a false love) but it happens naturally so it is in any other matter including the love for GOD.... your choice depends on your heart not the other way around...
If God has given you a new heart you love HIM, if you have the natural stone heart you cannot love HIM.

Without being reborn it is IMPOSSIBLE that anyone desire God (only a God that they created in their mind, not THE GOD as HE is, the real and only), but after that man is transformed by GOD, which is to die the old man and in it's place another one is born in the likeness of Christ (the regeneration - reborn) with a new mind, that man can only desire GOD and it is IMPOSSIBLE to desire to be apart of GOD... he cannot desire divorce.... If someone looks reborned (because of his good deeds) but desires to "divorce" from Jesus that only shows that that persons heart DOES NOT belong to God.

Of course not everyone can accept these "prison" they want freedom even from GOD... they prefer to choose even if it leads them to death than to belong to someone.
But that does not change the fact that one's a slave of GOD or of sin, and there's no middle point, no one's master of him self... natural man belongs to sin, reborned man were bought by Jesus.... never of his own so he can decide to want divorce or not.... his choices are up to his master.

I know that this is starting to go off-topic so I will stop here... I hope I have explained myself well my friend.

Matthew 5:5
Blessed are the meek,
For f they shall inherit the 1 earth.​

 

[NetChaplain]

Gal 5:17 does not say that the Spirit causes you not to be out of conduct, but it says that He FIGHTS against the flesh... so there is a fight and two wills do exist!!
... if having the Holy Spirit wold cause me not to be out of conduct there wold be no fight and I would never sin again...

First it must be defined as to what you mean by conduct. To me there are only two overriding conducts; living after the sinful nature (unregenerate) and living after the Spirit (regenerate). The conduct of a believer will progressively ("glory to glory"--2 Cor 3:18) be controlled by the Spirit, which does not mean he no longer sins or can ever live this life without sinning, but that sin will not have rule (Rom 6:12) nor have dominion (v 14) over him in his "mortal body" (and his immortal spirit), so as not to desire to return to living after the "old man".

It also should be understood that I believe the Gal 5:17 passage in reference to "the flesh" is not the physical body or physical flesh, but the carnal, sinful nature, the "old man," as are the majority of all the passages containing the word "flesh". It is the Spirit through the crucifying power of the Cross (Rom 6:6) which keeps the Adamic-nature from overtaking the believer as before rebirth.

 

[DHC]

Hi DHC...

If "for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap" is valid in the matter of salvation who will than be saved then?
Who can reap eternal live for what he as sowed?

Hello Sargento.

Regarding the activity of the sowing and the reaping. I have quoted the verse in order
to examine what Paul is saying.

Galatians 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption,
but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

Paul states that a believer in Jesus Christ who has received the Holy Spirit.
Must sow to the spirit in order to reap eternal life. It holds of course that
should one sow to the desires of the flesh one will not reap eternal life.

I would like to know Sargento just how you read the verse?

 

[blackbear4110]

Hi Blackbear...

Sorry in advance for my english... if you don't understand something just ask and I will try to explain it again.

I understand what you're saying, but the question is that a man saved by Jesus does not wish to divorce HIM... that reborning that God makes in that man TURNS him into a son of God that loves God as his father and Jesus has his brother... THAT is the transformation of the reborn... without it no man can genuinely love God or Jesus.
But after that work (reborning) of God which happens the moment (not progressively) that someone hears the gospel and believes it (because God give him faith so he can believe) the will of that man CHANGES... all the old things passed and everything is new... what he thought were darkness after all is light, and where he saw light he can now see clearly see darkness after all, and all of this because now God give him eyes to see and ears to hear and he NO LONGER judges the world by flesh ways but by the spirit ways, not by appearance but by the truth... GOD made him a " little child Jesus" thats in growth until he reaches the perfect stature of man, his older brother Jesus.

This new man now starts to fear God because he now understands who HE really is, but loving HIM at the same time because GOD shows him how much HE loves him and what HE is doing ... and he starts to understand all the words of the apostles and Jesus because he now thinks the same way... he, and Jesus became one.

In this world man and woman can marry (became one) and divorce because it is a union that does symbolize Christ and the Church but it an carnal union in the flesh NOT in spirit; but the church and Christ REALLY do become one, and there's NOTHING that can divide them... the bride desires the groom and the grom desires the bride because GOD joined them and made them love one another.

Just like a natural man cannot choose to want Jesus (he does not even have the capacity to known HIM ), the reborn does not have the capacity to deny HIM... sure, each one of them can SAY they do (for whatever reason) but that does not changes his heart that is carnal or spiritual... the choice is not in the mouth nor in actions, it's in the heart.

Natural men are carnal so they desire the carnal ways (sin), reborned men are spiritual therefor they desire GOD... and no one has the power to dictates the direction of his heart, but is his heart that guides him.... and even if someone decide to hide his heart decision by changing their behavior that will not change his heart and who it belongs to... he may fool other man, but not GOD.

Just like a father or a mother does not loves his son because they choose (which would be a false love) but it happens naturally so it is in any other matter including the love for GOD.... your choice depends on your heart not the other way around...
If God has given you a new heart you love HIM, if you have the natural stone heart you cannot love HIM.

Without being reborn it is IMPOSSIBLE that anyone desire God (only a God that they created in their mind, not THE GOD as HE is, the real and only), but after that man is transformed by GOD, which is to die the old man and in it's place another one is born in the likeness of Christ (the regeneration - reborn) with a new mind, that man can only desire GOD and it is IMPOSSIBLE to desire to be apart of GOD... he cannot desire divorce.... If someone looks reborned (because of his good deeds) but desires to "divorce" from Jesus that only shows that that persons heart DOES NOT belong to God.

Of course not everyone can accept these "prison" they want freedom even from GOD... they prefer to choose even if it leads them to death than to belong to someone.
But that does not change the fact that one's a slave of GOD or of sin, and there's no middle point, no one's master of him self... natural man belongs to sin, reborned man were bought by Jesus.... never of his own so he can decide to want divorce or not.... his choices are up to his master.

I know that this is starting to go off-topic so I will stop here... I hope I have explained myself well my friend.

Matthew 5:5
Blessed are the meek,
For f they shall inherit the 1 earth.​

You are very easy to understand, and I had no problem reading your English.
And I agree with you. To those on the "outside", it may seem like a prison...but to us who have been Born Again, it is a love-relationship between servant and Master.

The only thing I was trying to point out is that if we do not remain in a healthy relationship with Christ, if we do not live a lifestyle of repentance from our sin, if begin to fall away from God (something that doesn't not happen right away OR very quickly...sometimes we don't even REALIZE it!), we are not bound against our will to remain in Him. The Scripture that DHC pointed out is quite clear that Paul is very concerned for the Christians' relationships with God. If there was no way for us to fall away or be severed from Christ, then why would there be ANY urgency? Why would we need to read our Bibles, or pray, or grow, and so forth?

I'm not saying we can "lose" our Salvation, but that we can let ourselves grow cold, lukewarm, hard-hearted...thus, severing ourselves from God. IF we do not stay in a healthy relationship with Him. We can't lose it, because no one can take it away from us...but we of our own choice could give it back, or reject it even after accepting it. And I'm not talking about someone who is unstable and wavering in and out...I'm talking about the person described in Hebrews 6, who had the experience and the Holy Spirit and everything, yet chose to reject it. That person severs himself from Christ, with no possible way to come back to repentance. The Apostle Paul would not have told us this if it were not true.
It should be the desire of every Christian to enter into and remain in a love relationship with Christ as our "husband" and we as His "bride". But Satan is still here, and he is still working on us, using the weakness of our flesh to deny Christ and turn away from Him. That is why we should be careful for false doctrines and false teachers and the cunning traps of the Deceiver and the wolf in sheep's clothing, etc....why else would we need to watch out for that?

Honestly, I am of the opinion that, just as we can not begin to understand much less explain the Trinity of God, we can not fully know or understand everything about God and His Salvation, try as we might. But this (what I've said) is what I see from the Scripture.

 

[james1523]

Hello James.

In reference to your post #16.

You stated that "The book of Galatians is as much proof of eternal security as any".

Well James, I have selected a number of verses from the letter to the Galatians.
That certainly do not provide the reader with the impression of eternal security.

Galatians 4:11
I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

Paul is very concerned that they will not stay with Christ.

Galatians 4:19
My children, with whom I am again in labor until Christ is formed in you.

Paul has to labor again with the Galatians until Christ is once again established.
They obviously had strayed from Christ.

Galatians 5:1
It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

Keep standing firm in Christ is not an exhortation of OSAS. Rather it is a serious
warning that the Galatians must maintain the commitment to Christ.

Galatians 5:4
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Here is the proof that a person may fall away, fall from Christ. Attempting to
justify oneself by the law is a fatal mistake. Severed is the word used James.

Galatians 5:7
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Galatians 6:7
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap.

What other conclusion is possible, the Galatian church will be severed from Christ.
If they persist in pursuing justification by the law.

Simple and clear instruction. What you sow you reap!

Hello DHC. If we are being honest we must admit that there is no sense of losing eternal salvation, or being cast into the lake of fire for eternity in these passages. That it refers to these things is only your man-made assumption. Paul never doubts who they are in Christ, and never calls them apostates, unbelievers, destined for hell for eternity. As I stated in my previous post, it is about continuing with Christ for their sanctification, not their justification. Their position in Christ as children of God was secure. In Gal 4:31 Paul calls them brothers and sisters, and children of the free. Paul uses their position in Christ as the reason why they should continue in Christ also for their sanctification. Paul says Gal 3:3 "Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?"
They began in the Spirit -they were justified. They tried to finish in the flesh - they were not continuing in the Spirit for sanctification.
They only had to continue with Christ for their sanctification. They only had to stand firm and not be entangled again. Failure to do so results in them being saved with loss.. as through fire (as per 1 Corinthians), not being cast into the lake of fire with the unbelievers. It's certainly not pleasant for them, but neither is it total destruction with the unbelievers and Satan.

 

[james1523]

I have a problem with accepting this...not sure what to call it...the idea that Salvation, once obtained, can not be lost.

The Bible gives illustration that our relationship with Christ is like that of a marriage. Christ is our husband, and we are His bride. Yet, in keeping with the marriage illustration given to us in the Bible, marriage is intended to last forever and never be broken, but that does not mean there will never be a divorce. We have the opportunity to come to Christ, and we have the option to "divorce" or walk away from Him. As someone has already said, a good husband won't let anyone or anything take his wife away from him...but there is nothing he can do to stop her from walking away from him.

Another example someone has used is the fact that we are "Born Again", so therefore we can't be "un-born". Well, that's true. But once again we are using an illustration from the physical realm to explain the spiritual realm. So, in the physical, a person is born once. A person can not be un-born, nor can they return to their mother's womb or do anything to change the fact that they were born. But, there is a way to stop being alive...there is a way to put an end to that birth: death. Whether we go naturally, or by way of an accident, or even suicide...the point is, we stop living. We are no longer alive. Being born can't keep us from dying. Being born gives us the opportunity to die (because something that isn't alive can't die).
Flipping back to the spiritual realm, when we come to Christ and accept His free gift of Salvation, we are "Born Again", this time spiritually. We become alive in Christ, and begin living for Him. No, we can't become "un-born". But I believe we can die spiritually. And once you're dead, you can't come back to life (unless God performs a miracle and raises the dead back to life, which is another subject). And I believe this is why Paul emphasized the importance of not falling away, of not severing ourselves from Christ. And why he said it is impossible for them to be brought back to repentance, in Hebrews 6:4-8.
You have one meeting with birth, you have one meeting with death. You can't be born, then die, then be born, then die...not to offend anyone, but I don't believe a person can be saved, then not saved, then saved, then not saved. Christianity is not a light switch. It is being brought to life, a lifestyle, a heart-change, becoming a new creature, being born again. If you have become "unsaved", then you have died spiritually, and there is no way to bring you back to "life" (unless God chooses to work a miracle, but again, that's a different subject).

Hello blackbear. Your post makes a lot of sense. I believe salvation is secure because of the spiritual union between God and man based upon Christ's accomplished work on the cross. The things done by God in the spiritual realm, that can't be done (or undone) by us, and which God did based upon what Christ did on the cross, not what we did. The bible indicates 3 types of salvation - salvation of spirit, salvation of soul, and salvation of body. (Heb 4:12, 1 Thess 5:23, 1 Pe 1:9). Salvation of the spirit is when we are born again.. i.e. the Holy Spirit indwells our spirit, we become one spirit with the Lord (1 Cor 6:17), and is a once time event. If can say that Jesus is Lord and the Son of God come in the flesh, we know we have the Spirit from God (Rom 10:9, 1 John 4:15). Salvation of the soul is when the Spirit fills our soul - mind, emotions, will.. this is otherwise known as sanctification, and is a process continuing until we die. Salvation of the body is when the Lord will resurrect us and give us immortal glorified bodies, and is a future event. So there are 3 types of salvation - past (spirit), present (soul) , and future (body).

Physical death is separation of the body from the spirit/soul. Spiritual death is separation of the soul from God (who dwells in our spirit).
I believe a person who was once a believer and has become cold, lukewarm, etc.. their soul (mind emotions, will) has become separated from God in their spirit.. they lose salvation of their soul but their spirit will still be saved. To prove loss of eternal salvation once and for all, we must be able to prove that the Holy Spirit leaves a believer's spirit.. that is, loss of salvation of the spirit. No matter how corrupt a person may be in their emotions, mind or will (soul).. does the Spirit leave their spirit? is the question.

The spirit is the deepest part of man, and from experience myself and of others, even if everything on the outside looks very sinful, wrong, degraded, corrupt, evil.. in the deepest part of us God is always there with us, never leaving nor forsaking us, because once we are His child in the spirit we are always His child, we have His seed, His DNA in us, so I don't think that can be removed, by us anyway.

 

[B-A-C]

No... no one can receive salvation and than loose it because salvation is not a reward or a salary ... it was not achieved so it can loosed... but it is GIVEN (or denied).

You can look like you are saved, or appear to accept Jesus, but in good time God will reveal the earths of each by the word of gospel ....

I've gotten birthday presents, I didn't do anything to receive them. I've gotten Christmas presents from people I've never even met. I've gotten millions of coupons in the mail, I didn't ask for.
I've given many of these things away, I've refused some of them. I've thrown some in the trash before I've even looked at them. I'm not sure what it being a gift has to do with anything.

As far as being saved, I've been saved 42 years. Gone to seminary and Bible school. Led Bible study at 4 different churches and been on TJ for over 5 years. But you're right, there's always more to learn.
I feel the truth God has revealed to me, is that we have a part in salvation. God's plan for us is NOT to sit back and do nothing.

However, if God seals someone has HIS son he can be sure that God loves him and will not ever leave him and that HIS love for HIS sons is not based on their good deeds or own virtues (as if everything did not come from God)...

No one said God will leave us, but nothing says we can't leave him.

Gal 1:6; I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ

 

[DHC]

Hello blackbear. Your post makes a lot of sense. I believe salvation is secure because of the spiritual union between God and man based upon Christ's accomplished work on the cross. The things done by God in the spiritual realm, that can't be done (or undone) by us, and which God did based upon what Christ did on the cross, not what we did. The bible indicates 3 types of salvation - salvation of spirit, salvation of soul, and salvation of body. (Heb 4:12, 1 Thess 5:23, 1 Pe 1:9). Salvation of the spirit is when we are born again.. i.e. the Holy Spirit indwells our spirit, we become one spirit with the Lord (1 Cor 6:17), and is a once time event. If can say that Jesus is Lord and the Son of God come in the flesh, we know we have the Spirit from God (Rom 10:9, 1 John 4:15). Salvation of the soul is when the Spirit fills our soul - mind, emotions, will.. this is otherwise known as sanctification, and is a process continuing until we die. Salvation of the body is when the Lord will resurrect us and give us immortal glorified bodies, and is a future event. So there are 3 types of salvation - past (spirit), present (soul) , and future (body).

Physical death is separation of the body from the spirit/soul. Spiritual death is separation of the soul from God (who dwells in our spirit).
I believe a person who was once a believer and has become cold, lukewarm, etc.. their soul (mind emotions, will) has become separated from God in their spirit.. they lose salvation of their soul but their spirit will still be saved. To prove loss of eternal salvation once and for all, we must be able to prove that the Holy Spirit leaves a believer's spirit.. that is, loss of salvation of the spirit. No matter how corrupt a person may be in their emotions, mind or will (soul).. does the Spirit leave their spirit? is the question.

The spirit is the deepest part of man, and from experience myself and of others, even if everything on the outside looks very sinful, wrong, degraded, corrupt, evil.. in the deepest part of us God is always there with us, never leaving nor forsaking us, because once we are His child in the spirit we are always His child, we have His seed, His DNA in us, so I don't think that can be removed, by us anyway.

Hello James, your reply is most welcome, I do appreciate your civilized replies.

You did state the following in post # 36.

"Hello DHC. If we are being honest we must admit that there is no sense of losing eternal salvation,
or being cast into the lake of fire for eternity in these passages. That it refers to these things is only
your man-made assumption."

I have made no assumption James, my reading is the simple literal reading.

Galatians 5:7
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

The key words are 'severed' and 'fallen'. Severed means a separation or disconnection.
If you have been severed from Christ then you are no longer in relationship with Christ.
It is a warning James, very abrupt and strong language.

Your assumption is that God conducts an unconditional election!

The scripture declares an election with personal and corporate provisions!

 

[james1523]

I can never escape from your Spirit! I can never get away from your presence! (Ps 139:7, NLT)