“Come out of her, my people, that you may not participate in her sins and that you may not receive of her plagues;
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Hekuran
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@PloughBoy
I wonder if you have any idea how badly judged, unbiblical and dangerous is your advice on this thread.
First, your contention that the vision of Babylon the Great in the book of Revelation relates to the institutional church is way off the mark.
In Matthew 18: 15-20, Jesus assumes that the church will have an institution robust enough to administer discipline and excommunication.
You can read in the early chapters of the book of Acts that the Apostles set up institutions such as the seven servers of Acts 5 to ensure that every member of the community was treated fairly and the apostles could devote themselves to teaching.
Nowhere in the New Testament is anyone advised to separate themselves from regular fellowship with Christian brothers and sisters. Jesus had periodic retreats from ministry and disciples, going into the wilderness or the mountains to pray, but he always returned to community.
If the institutional church was Babylon the Great of Revelation, then the letters written to the seven churches in the same book would surely have told the fellowships to disband and the members to isolate themselves in order to pray and meditate on scripture individually.
Prayer and Bible reading are vital for the healthy Christian life, but they are never a substitute for regular fellowship that meets under the Lordship of Jesus Christ.
Anyone reading their Bible carefully cannot fail to notice that the whole of the New Testament concerns communities of disciples rather than individual believers. The three New Testament letters that are addressed to individuals (1 and 2 Timothy, Philemon) deal directly with the complexities of living out the gospel of Jesus Christ in a community.
I consider my church fellowship is a God-given gift. In it I have people who support and pray for me, people who care and those who are able to correct me when I go wrong, forgive me as I fail. I am able to offer the same things to the same people.
It is where I receive much of the teaching that benefits me, corporate worship, and sharing in the bread and wine.
To say that I should leave, isolate myself for individual Bible study and prayer is catastrophically reckless. It is a good thing I have no intention of taking your advice seriously.
I am happy to give financially to my church because I know that it supports people who are called by God to do their ministry without having the distraction of earning a separate wage to support themselves and their families.
I remind you that even Jesus was dependent on the gifts of other to support his ministry. See the beginning of Luke 8.
If you really are interested in what the Bible has to say, please read through the New Testament, asking yourself what are the expectations of Christian fellowship.
Doubtless every fellowship falls short of the ideal, but to think that leaving is a positive step is the very height of folly.
I wonder if you have any idea how badly judged, unbiblical and dangerous is your advice on this thread.
First, your contention that the vision of Babylon the Great in the book of Revelation relates to the institutional church is way off the mark.
In Matthew 18: 15-20, Jesus assumes that the church will have an institution robust enough to administer discipline and excommunication.
You can read in the early chapters of the book of Acts that the Apostles set up institutions such as the seven servers of Acts 5 to ensure that every member of the community was treated fairly and the apostles could devote themselves to teaching.
Nowhere in the New Testament is anyone advised to separate themselves from regular fellowship with Christian brothers and sisters. Jesus had periodic retreats from ministry and disciples, going into the wilderness or the mountains to pray, but he always returned to community.
If the institutional church was Babylon the Great of Revelation, then the letters written to the seven churches in the same book would surely have told the fellowships to disband and the members to isolate themselves in order to pray and meditate on scripture individually.
Prayer and Bible reading are vital for the healthy Christian life, but they are never a substitute for regular fellowship that meets under the Lordship of Jesus Christ.
Anyone reading their Bible carefully cannot fail to notice that the whole of the New Testament concerns communities of disciples rather than individual believers. The three New Testament letters that are addressed to individuals (1 and 2 Timothy, Philemon) deal directly with the complexities of living out the gospel of Jesus Christ in a community.
I consider my church fellowship is a God-given gift. In it I have people who support and pray for me, people who care and those who are able to correct me when I go wrong, forgive me as I fail. I am able to offer the same things to the same people.
It is where I receive much of the teaching that benefits me, corporate worship, and sharing in the bread and wine.
To say that I should leave, isolate myself for individual Bible study and prayer is catastrophically reckless. It is a good thing I have no intention of taking your advice seriously.
I am happy to give financially to my church because I know that it supports people who are called by God to do their ministry without having the distraction of earning a separate wage to support themselves and their families.
I remind you that even Jesus was dependent on the gifts of other to support his ministry. See the beginning of Luke 8.
If you really are interested in what the Bible has to say, please read through the New Testament, asking yourself what are the expectations of Christian fellowship.
Doubtless every fellowship falls short of the ideal, but to think that leaving is a positive step is the very height of folly.
PloughBoy
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it is the God given right for a person on this earth to do anything he or she wants to do which that belongs to them. This message is not for your ears. This is not addressing to you. So calm down , that is your church!!!!! I am not talking or addressing you ! So relax. I have never told you to leave your church or come out of it! That sir belongs to you! Your money belongs to you, who am I, to tell you what to do with your own, I AM. Nobody!!!! Sir, I do not know your church, I don’t even know your church’s “name”! Sir, I am not even a member of your church! Sir, I have no right to talk about your church, I add nothing for the up keep of your church. And as I can fully see, you do not want a person like me, to be even a member , of your church. So, calm down. For there is no way in the world, you would want to have “fellowship” with a person such as I
I hope that was clear!!!
Sir serve your “god” anyway you please, I have nothing against the way you serve your “god” . I have nothing against your church. You have the right of “freedom” of speech” , “freedom of choice”, freedom to express yourself“, to choose as you please, so do others. I will repeat this again, because to relieve you from tension, this it is not address to you:
“Come out of her, my people, that you may not participate in her sins and that you may not receive of her plagues;
Now for those who has eyes to see and ears to hear”. “Shalom”
I hope that was clear!!!
Sir serve your “god” anyway you please, I have nothing against the way you serve your “god” . I have nothing against your church. You have the right of “freedom” of speech” , “freedom of choice”, freedom to express yourself“, to choose as you please, so do others. I will repeat this again, because to relieve you from tension, this it is not address to you:
“Come out of her, my people, that you may not participate in her sins and that you may not receive of her plagues;
Now for those who has eyes to see and ears to hear”. “Shalom”
Hekuran
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Look back at your own posts. When I outlined the institutions of my church, you said I'd described a cult.
Whether you are speaking directly to me, or to anyone else, you are terribly mistaken. Some errors have only trivial consequences. But I fear that if anyone took your words and direction seriously it could be fatal for their walk in Christ.
And despite your protestations and the number of exclamation marks used, you advised to replace regular fellowship with Bible reading and prayer.
Please, anyone with eyes and ears to hear, test this advice before acting upon it. Ask, 'what kind of culture and community were the writers of the New Testament trying to establish in their letters and sermons?' and 'how can I live in a way that embodies the same culture and community today?'
Whether you are speaking directly to me, or to anyone else, you are terribly mistaken. Some errors have only trivial consequences. But I fear that if anyone took your words and direction seriously it could be fatal for their walk in Christ.
And despite your protestations and the number of exclamation marks used, you advised to replace regular fellowship with Bible reading and prayer.
Please, anyone with eyes and ears to hear, test this advice before acting upon it. Ask, 'what kind of culture and community were the writers of the New Testament trying to establish in their letters and sermons?' and 'how can I live in a way that embodies the same culture and community today?'
PloughBoy
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Sir, worry about YOUR church, correct your church, , I am not your “”disciple” neither do I go by the rules of “Your church or Their teaching! Neither do I wish too! What part of this you do not understand! I AM, Not your “disciple” I am just a member of TalkJesus” and I try to abide by the rules and guidelines of the“Moderators” in which I value so much! So I stand to be “discipline”, “corrected”, and directed into a more perfect avenue of approach. For those are part of the rules that I agree too, by membership, with all respect to the “membership”.
But Sir, with all respect, I am not a member of “Your church” neither am I “Your disciple “ neither do I hold to the teachings of “the Nicolaitians”.
But Sir, with all respect, I am not a member of “Your church” neither am I “Your disciple “ neither do I hold to the teachings of “the Nicolaitians”.
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Greetings brothers @PloughBoy @Hekuran
As there seems to be an increasing degree of disagreement/dispute here, the thread will be temporarily closed, for moderation. (Please could you look at this thread @Br. Bear @Christ4Ever)
Brother Hekuran, I agree with you that if your fellowship is sound and blessed then there should be no reason to up and go.....knowing that you would trust the Lord to lead you according to His will.
At the same time Ploughboy is raising an ever increasing issue of today's liberal churches.....lukewarm and abominable.
From personal experience we attended a church for sometime where fellowship and the pastors teaching was Biblically sound. Then one day the Pastor stood to give his opening message, he stated that the elders of the church had taken a vote to agree with homosexuality, and therefore he would be leaving this abomination. He and his family got up and left. A number of others including my children and I did the same with the clear message in my heart "Come out of her my people"
The words of a hymn come to mind.....The churches one foundation is Jesus Christ her Lord.
As there seems to be an increasing degree of disagreement/dispute here, the thread will be temporarily closed, for moderation. (Please could you look at this thread @Br. Bear @Christ4Ever)
Brother Hekuran, I agree with you that if your fellowship is sound and blessed then there should be no reason to up and go.....knowing that you would trust the Lord to lead you according to His will.
At the same time Ploughboy is raising an ever increasing issue of today's liberal churches.....lukewarm and abominable.
From personal experience we attended a church for sometime where fellowship and the pastors teaching was Biblically sound. Then one day the Pastor stood to give his opening message, he stated that the elders of the church had taken a vote to agree with homosexuality, and therefore he would be leaving this abomination. He and his family got up and left. A number of others including my children and I did the same with the clear message in my heart "Come out of her my people"
The words of a hymn come to mind.....The churches one foundation is Jesus Christ her Lord.
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