I do not disagree with basis of applying our faith in Christ Jesus. The point being is "Love our Neighbors as ourselves" and how it is put to action. The assumption is the foundation of that one has is based upon you being likeminded with your neighbor and knowing first what love is to begin with and that it will be beneficial to them. This is in part is the point that I am trying to show you. Romans 13:10 states Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
I think you are unnecessarily complicating the issue Brother Nick, to "Love our Neighbour as ourselves" and "To treat others as we would want them to treat us" is a basic formula for the application of Justice and Compassion in our dealings with others , especially the poor and Oppressed. The God we serve is a God that has a marked Bias for the poor and oppressed and a marked bias against the Rich and Powerful, as such, it is relatively easy to apply Christs commandments in those situations of injustice and suffering which hundreds of millions of men, women and children find themselves in. Those enduring injustice and oppression need to have the yoke of bondage lifted from them, the hungry need to be fed, the thirsty supplied with water, the homeless housed, the stranger welcomed and the root causes of the burden of poverty and suffering that encompass so many needs to be addressed and as far as possible in this Evil world, corrected. I think we need to remember that in the main Christ delivered his message to ordinary, relatively simple folk and as such was easy to understand, indeed we are told that unless we accept the Kingdom of God as little children we will in no way enter into it. Let us not get too tied up in matters that i believe were intended for relatively uncomplicated applications.
How can you be sure your actions are truly loving, and not unintentionally harming the very neighbor you claim to love through the methods you choose to help them; especially if those methods are simply the ones you prefer? This matters all the more when alternative ways exist that achieve the same goal without the wrongs of the process you have decided to use. Put it another way: if the loving path required the long, difficult, more dangerous road rather than the easier, less dangerous one (even if the easier road is just as long or longer), would you still be willing to accept that danger, especially if it endangered not only you but your family as well and would your neighbor make that same choice? Remember that the ends do not justify the means, particularly when you know the road others will travel is likely to fail and cause them greater harm in the long run. Shelah
I suppose i cant Brother Nick, i can only do what i believe is the best course of action in any given situation using the words of Christ to guide me. As to whether i would follow that road if it led to hardship and danger for myself and my family, thank God i havent yet been tested in that, i hope that i would stay true to my beliefs and convictions, to what i believe is the will of God, but until any of us are in that situation we cannot say in all honesty how we would act.
Agree in part. It still doesn't change what I address above in applying that very love.
You should not disagree "completely"! How can you and still be a Christian, a follower of Jesus. So, you would wrong another by satisfying your professed love for a neighbor? That is not love brother Steve! Far from it. By excusing/disregarding the very things that God has put in place (which I to have covered) to satisfy your particular actions doesn't bring justice to them or in truth change anything. All it does is switch the pain to another to have to deal with, while you walk away in the belief of having shown your love. We should not disagree with Acts 5:29! What I disagree with is how you extrapolated it to cover your own actions above what God has also established to be true.
I believe that my Bias, should always be to the poor and the oppressed, as i believe God commands us to be, as such my actions in the application of Christs commandments should always reflect that bias unless there are specific teachings to the contrary. And we will have to agree to disagree on Acts 5:29 Brother Nick, i see it as telling us to follow the law of the Land only in as much as it doesnt conflict with the teachings and Commandments of our Faith. You i believe see it as a blanket acceptance of the Laws of the land even if by following them you contravene Christs teachings. I hope ive got that right, except in the matter of the Freedom to propagate the Gospel. I must admit i am somewhat confused as to the validity of Earthly Governments. On the one hand you have the Devil offering Christ "All the Kingdoms of the world because they are mine to give to whom i choose", which would imply ALL earthly kingdoms are in the Devils control, conversely we have St Paul saying we must obey Earthly Governments because they are put there by God.Are they indeed instigated directly by God or does God by allowing the Devil control of Earthly kingdoms use his power that way to bring about the destruction of this Earth through our own sinfulness.?
Here is why: No one is stopping you from spreading the Word of God, only identifying your actions as being done that is contrary to what they already have in place and are doing. The issue is that they are not doing it in the way you believe they should be. That makes it your problem not theirs and has nothing to do with what happened in Acts. Scripture calls us to seek justice and care for the vulnerable (Micah 6:8; Matthew 25), and we as Christians can advocate strongly for better approaches, but that doesn't make every enforcement action a violation of 'obey God rather than men.' that you are applying to what you are doing.
Thats true Brother Nick, no one is stopping me from spreading the word of God, but the actions of the US and UK Governments are, as i see it, directly contrary to Christs teachings on "welcoming the Stranger" and " Loving your Neighbour as yourself" and "treating others as you'd want to be treated". As such i must speak out and act against what i see as evil policies. To do any less would be an abrogation of the faith i profess to follow, and i believe that yes, every enforcement action in this respect is a violation of "Obey God rather than men", for when i see families being ripped apart, when i see people so desperate that they risk their lives to seek safety or a better life, when i see forced deportations and mass arrests, then that to me is a violation of Christs commandments and teachings on how we should treat the poor and oppressed.
We can hold a wide range of good-faith views on immigration policy while submitting to the rule of law. The verse of Acts 5:29 is powerful for religious liberty; but broadening it risks undermining the very order the Bible says God uses to restrain evil.
I dont think "We can hold a wide range of good-faith views on immigration policy while submitting to the rule of law." Brother Nick, if submitting to the "Rule of Law" means going against the teachings of the saviour we profess to follow. His words in Matthew 25:31-46, "The Sheep and the Goats" go far further than saying "Love your Neighbour" and "Treat others as you'd want to be treated", for in that passage Christ says that in the form of the poor, the hungry, the sick, the STRANGER, you see him, and when you help them you help him and will be saved, but when you ignore them, you ignore him and will be condemned, how many Christs do you think we can ignore because the law of the Land says we must and not be condemned for so doing ?.
True—if you are applying the entirety of Scripture to your actions and are guided by the Holy Spirit. Commands are not isolated in their own bubble, granting carte blanche to do whatever one has decided is right. The negative effect on others is not mere speculation; had the rest of Scripture been weighed beforehand, the harm would be recognized as real rather than dismissed as subjectively inconsequential.
But that again opens up a Pandoras Box of Subjectivity Brother Nick, for we can each believe we are being guided by the Holy Spirit and that our contraventions of Christs teachings are based on Divine inspiration, and again, as illustrated here, we all have our different interpretations of Scripture and what it means, Acts5:29 is just one example, and i know that "loving your neighbour as yourself" and "treating others as you'd want to betreated" are also highly subjective, but nearly all of us, probably ALL Christians if they were honest, would want to be fed if they and their families were hungry, would want shelter if homeless, would want water if thirsty and would want to be welcomed if fleeing, persecution, violence or poverty. Some may say differently, and i wish i could take them and their families and make them live in those situations of suffering, poverty and destruction for a year, and then see what take they have on Christs words, i'd imagine it could be a lot differnt.
Exactly right brother. Kudos!
Now that is within the governance structure set up by God. What did our Lord say when given a Roman coin? Mark 12:17 Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s. Now, Ananias and Sapphira had a choice to make, and they took what they determined was for God, and kept it for themselves. It was the lie that cost them, because they didn't have to do any of it in the first place!
But what of my question Brother Nick, do you believe its right to take off someone, perhaps unwillingly, they may disagree on moral or religious grounds, in the form of taxation, for spending on Defence or the Police, if that taxation is duly implemented through a democratic process?. And if you do, then whats the difference in taking money off someone in the form of taxation, for the spending on Social security, welfare and overseas Aid, provided that taxation is also implemented through a democratic process?
You are right it is not either/or. That is why the example I set before you. You were doing the Christian virtues, but without the Gospel being given. As you now know that won't work and you are changing accordingly. At least I truly hope so!
Yes i have amended my giving accordingly Brother Nick to more reflect my Christian values. To be honest there was always something lacking, something gnawing inside my head that what i was doing wasnt quite right, it took your prompting to finally make me see that, and many thanks for that
Now are you in charge of that 1.5 trillion? But you are in charge of what you have, after taking care of your own, so do with that as supports the helping of others. As we both know, and you have acknowledged as well, we can't take care of everyone. It's not going to happen. So, we do the best we can, in the structure that is set up. And work within the system to make it better. Again, it will come down to is the government doing all it can do? My answer is no! But do we blow it up, and why start with the government that is doing the best? Why not taking down all the other ones first, so that this country with the resources will have an example to follow.
Because if you take this one down, you'll wind up with what until a new one is established? Chaos, and even more poverty and oppression then there was before! Is this helping?
You misunderstand me Brother Nick, i'm not about "blowing up the Government", for i do not believe in violence, but that again is another very controversial topic, my attempts at change are limited to supporting Campaigning groups that go about their work in a peaceful and mainly legal manner. I do believe there are times when peaceful but illegal protest is justified, Christ was crucified because he went against the powers that be, and as in the moneylenders in the Temple, his actions were not always peaceful, but sit ins, and demonstrations, non violent in Nature are justified when facing unjust and evil laws and situations. In my youth i was involved in violent actions, not against people, but property, but i see now how wrong those actions were, both from a moral and practical view, morally they contravene the teachings of Christ and could easily have escalated into something more destructive, practically, they enabled others to paint us as nothing more than mindless vandals intent on destruction, so yes, i see the wrong in violence and do not wish to see anything "blown up", well not in the societal structures i live in atm, but if i had had the chance to blow up the train lines leading to Auschwitz, or the gas chambers themselves, would i have pressed the trigger, yes i surely would.
Oh, when I say give them Jesus, the Gospel which is Jesus is what is meant. You can't have the Gospel without Jesus brother!
Amen to that Brother Nick!
Yes! You have your own government, established by God to work through and will have greater influence than you can as an individual. The budgeting of what is spent is not only the US but done by every other country out there! Stop trying to bring down the one country that has a greater chance of helping instill Christian values throughout the world! Try that with others, like ungodly China, and see where that will get you.
Again i think we will have to agree to disagree Brother Nick, unless you can show me specific Scripture in support of your position, the way i see it there are no man made limits, and yes i understand you see nation states as God created whereas i see them as evil entities under the control of Satan, but regardless of that, i believe our call to Compassion and justice encompasses ALL of Gods creation. What happens to that starving child in Sudan is as much importance as a child starving here in the uK, the only difference is there are millions of Children starving in Sudan and very few, if hardly none at all starving in the UK, the disproportionate effects of Poverty and suffering are felt mainly in countries far away from my rich and comfortable life here in the UK, as possibly your life is in the US, but the effects of policy decisions taken here in the uK and in the US have massive effects on those living in the poorest countries. As such i believe our call to Justice and Mercy must include not only the effects of evil ,but the causes of Evil, and i try to fight those causes wherever they may occur, be it the Uk, the US, China, the UAE, Iran ,or wherever in this world of suffering and death i can try to make a difference and bring Gods light of Justice and compassion into the darkness. For as the founder of Amnesty said, "There is not enough darkness in the world to put out the light of a single candle".
Of course you don't see it as socialism. Yet, it does more to not help the poor or I should say creates poorer people than a democracy does. The incentive that I've spoken of before, is just not there to change the people to increase productivity to allow it to be otherwise. If you don't think any government out there, be it socialism, democracy what have you don't have people lining their pockets of those already wealthy, then you're just not seeing it. For it is there even in China, or any other form of government. As we have both acknowledged before, until Jesus returns its not going to change, try as we might. Oh, and yes, we try, but remember...."process".
Time has caught up with me again Brother Nick, Sorry, but it has been fascinating and deeply challenging to read and reply to your points, and thats good, for it makes us think and question our own beliefs which over time can become more influenced by the culture/Politics/morality of the society around us than by Christs teaching. I will just say that on this issue. i dont believe that any system founded on Evil, as i believe Capitalism to be, as its motivated by greed and selfishness, should be supported by Christians whatever its perceived short term benefits, for that evil will ultimately consume those that implement it and those that are complicit in its application. but i'll have to stop here and if you could leave your reply until ive finished the second part which should be on Tuesday, God willing, that would be greatly appreciated.
With the Love of Christ Jesus Brother Nick
Steve
Because as you've said yourself, the government does a poor job of it, and in truth its not their job! Before technology increased, cars, air etc. Who divided the resources to help the poor??? It surely was not the government, but people in communities who came together to help each other. We are the Church brother!
Agree!
I support that which motivates people to being creative, because they bring to bear talents that I believe are God given. Right now, capitalism is the one system out there, at least until the return of Jesus, that does that. Oddly, enough in the world that we live in, greed & selfishness move more people to do good than the Love of God does.
That is why the Gospel and abiding in Christ Jesus, is more powerful than any other confab that one came come up with to solve that can eradicate "sin", as He did on the Cross!
Well, like you in this post I've finished the first part, but still have your next post to go that is a part of it, so don't reply to this one yet!!!
Love you brother!
With the Love in Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
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Note: Normally, I double check these postings, but it's getting quite long, and I'm tired. Maybe, the next one will be shorter. I haven't looked at it yet, so it may be a couple of days before getting to it. Ah, it should give you some time to digest this long one!
\o/
