Brightfame52 said:

The elect are justified before God on the sole basis of Christs death Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

His being risen again is because of their Justification Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification

If Christ didn't Justify them by His death by dying for their sins, He could not have and would not have been raised again ! 27

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You keep conflating the accomplishment of atonement with the application of justification. Christ’s death and resurrection are absolutely the sole grounds upon which anyone can be justified. I agree. But Romans 8:33-34 does not say the elect were justified while unbelieving or prior to faith.

In fact, the same letter repeatedly states justification is “by faith” (Romans 3:28; 5:1). So your interpretation creates a contradiction within Romans itself.

Christ was raised because His atoning work was accepted and sufficient for justification. But Paul still says righteousness is counted “to us who believe” (Romans 4:24), meaning the resurrection secured justification objectively, while faith is the God-ordained means through which it is applied personally.

Brightfame52 said:

The world of 2 Cor 5:19

19 ]To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

This world is a justified world due to the non imputation of their sins, All who belong to this world have been legally discharged from guilt and punishment of their iniquities. God doesn't lay any charge against them which declares them Justified by His own act Rom 8:33

Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.27

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2 Corinthians 5:19 cannot mean every person in the “world” is already justified irrespective of faith, because only a few verses later Paul says, “we implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God” (2 Corinthians 5:20). That would make no sense if reconciliation and justification were already fully applied to them.

Paul’s point is that God accomplished reconciliation in Christ and now proclaims that message to the world. The provision is objective in Christ, but its application is still tied to faith and reconciliation through the gospel response.

Your interpretation creates a serious contradiction. You are saying the elect are already legally justified, forgiven, and have no sin imputed to them even while they are still unbelievers. Yet Scripture describes unbelievers as:

• “condemned already” (John 3:18)
• “children of wrath” (Ephesians 2:3)
• “dead in sins” (Ephesians 2:1)

So under your system, the same person is simultaneously:

• fully justified before God,
• not having sin imputed,
• under no condemnation, while also being condemned already and under wrath.

That is a theological contradiction caused by separating justification from faith in a way the apostles never do.

Christ dying alone is the elect sinners Justification before God ! Hence Paul preached 1 Cor 2:2

For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.


Gal 6:14

But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

Rom 8:33-34

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Mans religion denies this blessed truth of the Justifying death of Christ for elect sinners, and they say no, the sinner must be Justified by Faith, which of course is also true in its proper place, but to preach that in neglect of Justification solely by the Death/Blood of Christ alone is grave error and denounces the meritorious blood of Christ ! 28

KingJ said:

Saying “yes it does”

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Again yes it does, scripture says it which you dont believe

KingJ said:

You keep conflating the accomplishment of atonement with the application of justification.

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I know what Im doing, Preaching the Gospel which you are opposing

KingJ said:

2 Corinthians 5:19 cannot mean every person in the “world” is already justified irrespective of faith,

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No just the elect

Brightfame52 said:

Christ dying alone is the elect sinners Justification before God ! Hence Paul preached 1 Cor 2:2

For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.


Gal 6:14

But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

Rom 8:33-34

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Mans religion denies this blessed truth of the Justifying death of Christ for elect sinners, and they say no, the sinner must be Justified by Faith, which of course is also true in its proper place, but to preach that in neglect of Justification solely by the Death/Blood of Christ alone is grave error and denounces the meritorious blood of Christ ! 28

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Nobody who believes the Bible denies the power or sufficiency of Christ’s blood. The issue is that Scripture repeatedly says justification is received through faith, not apart from faith.

Romans 5:1 — “Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Galatians 2:16 — “a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ…”

Yes, Christ’s death is the sole basis of salvation, but the Bible never says people are justified before they believe. In fact, Romans 3:25 says God set forth Christ “through faith in his blood.”

You are creating a false division between Christ’s cross and faith in Christ. The cross purchased salvation; faith is how we receive it. That does not dishonor Christ’s blood, it honors the biblical gospel.

Brightfame52 said:

Again yes it does, scripture says it which you dont believe

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I see that you really battle with debate and posting rebuttals. Are you simply copying and pasting excerpts from a Calvinist site?

This is a discussion forum. Not a message board.

Brightfame52 said:

I know what Im doing, Preaching the Gospel which you are opposing

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Your view turns the gospel into a terrible message of cherry picking some for heaven. If that were the case, why preach?

Jesus clearly commanded us to preach the gospel to every creature (Mark 16:15) as He wills all be saved (1 Tim 2:4). But you, you don't believe or teach that, so why preach at all? Do you get pleasure from attacking the nature of God and the gospel of Jesus?

Are you not afraid of judgement day when you will stand alone before God and need to explain why you taught the lost that God loves and died for that He does not love them nor died for them?

Scripture teaches that God is loving, just, impartial, and righteous in all His ways. “God is light, and in him is no darkness at all” (1 John 1:5), and “The Lord is righteous in all his ways” (Psalm 145:17). Because of God’s perfectly righteous nature, it would be a metaphysical impossibility for Him to be partial, do evil or act unjustly.

The Bible clearly says on numerous occasions (I know of 17 verses) that God is “no respecter of persons” (Acts 10:34) and that He “will have all men to be saved” (1 Tim. 2:4). Christ Himself said, “whosoever believeth in him should not perish” (John 3:16).

Yes, Christ’s death alone is the grounds of salvation, but scripture repeatedly says justification is received through faith (Rom. 5:1; Gal. 2:16). We should therefore be careful not to build a doctrine by isolating certain verses while overlooking the many passages that reveal God’s love for the world and His genuine call for all people to repent and believe.

1 Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Man in his proud religion today detract from the Glory of Christ in Justification by His Blood and righteousness alone by stating not until man believes is he Justified before God. What this does, is to say that Christs blood and righteousness alone was insufficient and lacked merit before God in and of itself to Justify before God, but needed added to it mans act of believing.28

KingJ said:

Nobody who believes the Bible denies the power or sufficiency of Christ’s blood. The issue is that Scripture repeatedly says justification is received through faith, not apart from faith.

Romans 5:1 — “Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Galatians 2:16 — “a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ…”

Yes, Christ’s death is the sole basis of salvation, but the Bible never says people are justified before they believe. In fact, Romans 3:25 says God set forth Christ “through faith in his blood.”

You are creating a false division between Christ’s cross and faith in Christ. The cross purchased salvation; faith is how we receive it. That does not dishonor Christ’s blood, it honors the biblical gospel.

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You are denying the Blood and its Justifying efficacy alone, that's what God given Faith acknowledges, yet you deny it

KingJ said:

I see that you really battle with debate and posting rebuttals. Are you simply copying and pasting excerpts from a Calvinist site?

This is a discussion forum. Not a message board.

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Now slander and misrepresentation

KingJ said:

Jesus clearly commanded us to preach the gospel to every creature (Mark 16:15) as He wills all be saved (1 Tim 2:4). But you, you don't believe or teach that, so why preach at all? Do you get pleasure from attacking the nature of God and the gospel of Jesus?

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I do Preach the Gospel to all.

Brightfame52 said:

Now slander and misrepresentation

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I type a sound rebuttal raising multiple facts, you type a one-liner ''no you are wrong''.

You reply like a teenager not an adult on a discussion forum.

Brightfame52 said:

Man in his proud religion today detract from the Glory of Christ in Justification by His Blood and righteousness alone by stating not until man believes is he Justified before God. What this does, is to say that Christs blood and righteousness alone was insufficient and lacked merit before God in and of itself to Justify before God, but needed added to it mans act of believing.28

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That is a false dichotomy. Saying justification is received through faith does not mean faith adds merit to Christ’s work. Scripture never presents faith as a competing righteousness alongside Christ.

Christ’s blood and righteousness are completely sufficient to save. Faith is simply the God-ordained means by which a person is united to Christ and receives what He accomplished. That is why Paul can simultaneously say:

• salvation is entirely by Christ’s work,
• and yet “we have been justified by faith” (Romans 5:1).

Under your logic, every biblical command to believe the gospel becomes unnecessary, because people would already be fully justified before believing. But the apostles never preached that way.

Now even though God does Justify the elect while they are enemies, ungodly, and unbelievers Rom 4:5,, its not for that reason He justifies them, no He justifies them while they're in that wicked state because He reckons them righteous still with the Gift of imputed righteousness . See even in a wicked state God has still so graciously made Christ to be unto them 1 Cor 1:30

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness/Justification, and sanctification, and redemption:28

KingJ said:

I type a sound rebuttal raising multiple facts, you type a one-liner ''no you are wrong''.

You reply like a teenager not an adult on a discussion forum.

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Ive given many facts in this thread and no one has refuted them including you

KingJ said:

Christ’s blood and righteousness are completely sufficient to save.

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Since Christs blood and righteousness actually saves, you have detracted from it by saying they are merely sufficient to save. Therefore you must contribute the efficient cause to something other than the blood and righteousness of Christ.

Now in what sense is Justification by Faith necessary ? Its very necessary in that Faith gives Gods elect a conscience knowledge of of their Justification before God. Its similar as it was said of Johns ministry Luke 1:77

To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,28