As for "pushing to extremes2, not really ,just want to know how far the means justify the ends, if it could be proved that graphic torture acted as a greater deterrent would you support it?. I'm not sure if deterrents work that well, although i support people that commit violent crimes being taken out of society, from what i've read the countries with the lowest crime rates, have the least emphasis on punishment and much more on understanding why people commit crimes and how to provide them with the resources to reverse their behaviour.
How far depends on the individual as well as the country you are talking about wouldn't you say? Actually, deterrent does work, but it depends on the socioeconomic conditions, systemic factors of the country that you are talking about when one is talking about crime. Think about nuclear weapons, and mutually shared destruction. So, deterrence does work, but it really has other factors that must be considered, before one says it doesn't work or has limited affect.
Some countries go over the top in punishment, and it seems to work. Check out Singapore. While I agree in some countries like Iceland, Denmark, have low crime rates, what you will also find is its racial homogeny is also limited. Not something anyone likes to talk about or take into account either. lol
The quote you provide is interesting, i see it as an acceptance that if we transgress the laws of the state, and for a Christian that transgression should only be as a result of those laws transgressing Christs commandments, then we have to accept the punishment given by the state, for is we are persecuted for Righteousness sake, for following the will of God, then we indeed truly blessed and great will be our reward in heaven. Matthew 5 vs 10-12, for if we lose our life in the service of the Kingdom then we will save it.
Exactly, right. For a Christian, but for the non-believer who are already transgressors against God, and Christ, the laws of the state stand as an acceptable form of punishment to be metered out.
The interesting part of it is, try standing on your forgiveness in Christ Jesus for your sins, in a regular court of law and see how far that gets you! I do believe that Paul saw this, and as a Roman Citizen, was able to plead his case to Cesar.
Not sure what you mean about "forgoing one sin so that another may be committed", please elaborate, and are we not continually sinning, all of us, in thought, in word ,in deed?. What i'm saying is that we can only transgress the laws of a country when those laws transgress the Laws of God, our commitment to our faith and the teachings of Christ are above any man made law and where they clash we must always choose to follow Christs teachings and accept any punishment meted out to us.
And there is "middle ground", the middle ground for me is the gap between the teachings of Christ and knowing what i should do and what i actually do,but there can be no compromise of Christs commandments, only the acceptance of my sin and my feeble attempts to follow him.
As to "what if scenarios", i find they concentrate the miond and make us apply our beliefs to the reality of their working out in the world. Its all to easy to say "I believe this", but when the implications of that belief are applied to practical situations then those beliefs can often seem harder to justify.
Actually, you see the very issue of "forgoing one sin so that another may be committed". You are saying that "we can only transgress the laws of a country...", even though the authority that made the laws of the country is God. You would fall back on man-made law, while the authority is God for them to do so! That's the conundrum you are facing, and why I said what I said.
I agree with your "middle ground". Romans 7:14-20 speaks well to this.
I disagree with your explanation of "what if scenarios". For to you it may be an assist to see if the implications of one's belief can hold water, because it is a too weak version to the actual reality of having to follow through in faith one's belief. In certain instances that is fine, but in the area we are talking about I would say no. Would I rely on those scenarios if I knew I’d have to face the reality of making decisions based on them, knowing they might not truly reflect what my actions would be when the time came to make them if they were personal? Or am I just deluding myself into thinking they would? I am honest to know that I would not want to be tested in this way, for I know my own sinful nature. To do otherwise, is to seek to have your resolve tested in reality, which for me is similar to asking for patience!
I suppose it comes from the general, universal rule of Christ that "We should love our neighbour as ourselves and treat others as we would want to be treated", when theres no specific teaching to the contrary these are the rules i try to follow.
That is why I provided Paul's words.
We can pass judgement on the actions of others and ourselves, but as to passing judgement on their death, then thats specifically spoken against by Christ when confronted by the woman taken in adultery, for all of us are sinners. And how do you know you are a "believer" and not one of those many Christ will say to "i know you not"?
We need to pass judgment brother! In fact, we do it every day of our lives. However, doing it rightly is the conundrum we all must face. Folks like to use the adulterous woman as an example, of forgiveness of sin, but leave out the future behavior being judged not just in this act, but all acts. Forgiveness for that one act of hers does not negate first the consequences of her sin apart from the stoning, but also any future sin being brought to account against her.
You asked me a question, and I know the answer lies not in anything I’ve done, but in what He, my Jesus, has done for me. So, I ask you this: Do you believe your actions are what will save you? If so, what does that mean for God’s grace?
Do you believe when Christ said, "Love your neighbour as yourself, and treat others as you'd want to be treated", he meant to add " but only in your own country", the parable of the Good Samaritan shows who our neighbour is and depicts a despised minority as being the one that helps, check out the "Sheep and the goats" in Matthew 25, there Christ so identifies himself with the poor and suffering that he says "when you help them you help me", are you going to ignore the suffering Christ just because hes not within an arbitrary line drawn by men.?
Are you aware of the amount of GDP given in Overseas Aid by the US before the cuts by trump?, i read a report by Mercy Corps who estimate that over the next 5 years 14 million people in the poorest countries will die as a result of US aid cuts. is that acceptable to you?, do you think the US is rich enough to both provide a reasonable amount to that "suffering Christs" in other countries as well as provide for its own citizens, Bear in mind Trumps allocated a $1 Trilliojn budget for the pentagon, money for war but not for bread, is that what you think Christ would want?.
Do you believe salvation is individual or can be received as a community?
Then why are you not following our laws that we have in the US, or for that matter, any of the myriad laws for caning, the cutting off limbs, etc.? Which they do to neighbors too who commit the crimes that warrant it or are you saying that if you commit a crime, you should not be punished for it, or only God can punish you, and not by the authority He put in place to do so?
I've asked you to break down which USAID funded programs are acceptable to be cut, but I hear only generalities for funding that is being cut, and not specifics. What falls under what one would consider humanitarian aid, is wide and varied, to were you to know what they were, even the most liberal of people would say "what?". So, what I am saying, is that just saying so does not make it true. Research a little of the programs that Musk's team Doge was suggesting being cut (all placed on line), and you might have a better idea of what is being talked about. Instead of believing everything from the left or right that you've gotten your information from. Also, what is the UN doing? Isn't that their responsibility?
Here's a start: I hope you don't have a problem with these or at least the majority of them.
| Program/Grant Description | Country/Region | Amount (USD) | Rationale for Cut (per DOGE) | Status |
|---|
| Grant to Gavi (global vaccine access organization) | Global | $1.75 billion (claimed; actual prior payout $880 million) | Duplicate funding and lack of oversight; seen as inefficient international handout. | Canceled in full. |
| PEPFAR (HIV/AIDS prevention and treatment, including Ebola efforts) | Africa/Global | $9.4 billion (partial cut from broader USAID health programs) | Accused of "woke" elements; initial freeze disrupted meds for 2M+ people, later partially restored amid backlash. | Partially cut; chaos reported in supply chains. |
| DEI/ESG consultancy services | Africa | $520 million | Corporate-style "woke" consulting with no direct U.S. benefit. | Terminated. |
| Biodiversity conservation and "licit livelihoods" promotion | Colombia | $25 million | Vague environmental/social engineering abroad. | Canceled. |
| Social/economic inclusion for sedentary migrants | Global | $40 million | Unclear value; prioritized foreign migrants over U.S. needs. | Axed. |
| Social and behavioral change research/programs | Uganda | $42 million | Ideological interventions with low ROI. | Cut. |
| Political development and election strengthening | Global (Consortium for Elections) | $486 million | Foreign election meddling; included voter turnout boosts. | Eliminated. |
| Voter turnout enhancement | India | $21 million | Non-essential foreign political influence. | Terminated. |
| Political landscape strengthening | Bangladesh | $29 million | Bureaucratic waste in unstable regions. | Canceled. |
| Fiscal federalism and biodiversity initiatives | Nepal | $39 million ($20M + $19M) | Overlapping, low-impact grants. | Both cut. |
| Social cohesion promotion | Mali | $14 million | Risky funding in conflict zones with fraud potential. | Axed. |
| Inclusive democratic processes | South Africa | $2.5 million | Redundant "inclusion" efforts. | Terminated. |
| Educational outcomes improvement | Asia | $47 million | Broad, untargeted spending. | Cut. |
| Condom distribution | Hamas-linked groups (Gaza) | $100 million | Funding to terrorist-affiliated entities. | Halted. |
| Voluntary medical male circumcision | Mozambique | $10 million | Questionable health priority abroad. | Canceled. |
| Independent media voices strengthening | Cambodia | $2.3 million | Media bias promotion. | Axed. |
| Public procurement enhancement | Serbia | $14 million | Administrative bloat. | Terminated. |
| Political participation and inclusion | Moldova | $22 million | Foreign political activism. | Cut. |
| Voter confidence boosting | Liberia | $1.5 million | Minimal U.S. strategic value. | Canceled. |
| Sesame Street educational programming | Iraq | $20 million | Cultural exports with no security return. | Eliminated. |
| Meals for al-Qaeda-linked group | Syria | $10 million | Direct aid to terrorists. | Halted. |
| Combating disinformation | Kazakhstan | $4.5 million | Censorship tool disguised as aid. | Cut. |
| Avoiding binary-gendered language training for journalists | Sri Lanka | $7.9 million | Extreme ideological training. | Terminated. |
| LGBT advocacy | Jamaica | $1.5 million | Non-core U.S. foreign policy. | Axed. |
| LGBT causes/activism | Guatemala (sex changes), Uganda, Western Balkans, Armenia, Honduras, South Africa, Latin America, Global | $2M + $5.5M + $3.9M + $1.1M + $1.9M + $6.3M + $2M + $6M (total ~$28M) | "Woke" priorities over essentials. | All canceled. |
| Equity and inclusion education | Global (USAID Education) | $8.3 million | DEI in foreign schools. | Cut. |
| EcoHealth Alliance (bat virus research funding) | Global (Wuhan lab ties) | $5 million (x2 instances) | Links to controversial origins of COVID-19. | Terminated. |
| Gas station construction | Afghanistan | $43 million | Unused infrastructure boondoggle. | |
| Pottery classes and promotion | Morocco | $2 million | Cultural frivolity. | Canceled. |
| Transgender opera | Colombia | $47,000 | Artistic propaganda. | Axed. |
| Transgender comic book | Peru | $32,000 | Niche ideological media. | Terminated. |
| Reintegration gift bags for deportees (incl. Barbie dolls) | Global | $27 million | Silly, low-value items. | Cut. |
Controversies: While DOGE touted fraud reductions (e.g., $1B recovered), global health experts estimated 14 million+ preventable deaths by 2030 from disrupted programs like PEPFAR and malaria aid. Legal challenges temporarily blocked some cuts, but courts largely upheld DOGE's authority.
I'm talking about what Christians should advocate, i criticise ALL rich nations for their lack of Compassion and Justice for the worlds poorest, you said that Pedos and those that destroy childs lives should be execvuted, i am just following thorugh on your logic, if Trumps decision to cut aid kills 14 million over the next 5 years, many of them children, then what do you think should be his punishment?, and if you believe in the death penalty for sins, then yes ,the line of those to be executed would be unending, but for myself, i recognise that none of us are worthy enough to cast that first stone, we live in an evil and corrupt world, driven by greed and lust, hate and indifference, and the only one that can truly judge us is God alone.
And ive campaigned over many years, 40 years plus, for an increase in Aid from ALL countries, the UK has just cut its aid programme back by £4 billion which will cost millionsw of lives and push hundreds of millions more into lives of abject poverty and suffering, i can not ignore the suffering Christ in my midst, can you?.
What Christians should advocate? Want me to add a verse for you to say, that we are in the World but not of it?
You suffer for people, so turn them to Jesus! I knew of an organization that decided not to try to use the giving of food with the Gospel of Jesus. Do you know why? Not to upset the people who believed differently!!! These same organizations if you were to tell them, that they could have all the money they needed, but the Gospel of Jesus would have to be spread along with it...do you know what they'd say??? "NO THANK-YOU"! That is how ultraistic the organizations you are dealing with are!!! Saving their bodies seems so important to them, but losing their eternal lives doesn't matter as much!
So, what should Christian's advocate? The Gospel!!!!
People often approach me outside grocery stores asking for money to buy food. Instead of giving them cash, I offer to shop for food with them and cover the cost, but so far, no one has taken me up on it! You can’t be sure where the money actually goes. You want to believe it’s all helping the poor and hungry, but the reality is often darker than what you imagine about those who are cutting funding.
Oh, and please don't put the blame of poverty and suffering on the people who did not create the problem in the first place! (Matthew 26:11)
I am with you, but I'm also a realist, to the grey areas that have caused the problems that we see worldwide. Give them Jesus, and you will have given them what all the resources in the world could never give them and won't be able to!
That is the focus, as a Christian, in disciple making, and all else we do is so that we can give them Jesus! If you don't include that with what you do, and hope that they'll get it some other way...well...
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
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