Hi Christ4Ever,

You asked a leading question in your first paragraph and a second question in yiyr second paragraph, but in your last paragraph you want to hold off, so I'll hold off after responding to your post if you also hold off after this post.

At the conclusion of this post is a consideration of alleged Charlie Kirk murderer Tyler Robinson.

Christ4Ever said:

Not to stop what I have since posted on God's Will, but to the dictionary link what does "yielding" mean to you if not a conscious decision by coercion or persuasion of the individual in question?

Click to expand...

The "yielding" in the Webster's Dictionary definition for the word "obedient" that you presented is a work of God according to Christian instruction "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure"
(Philippians 2:13 (NASB1995)).

I look at how you chopped off the quotations of [https://biblehub.com/1_peter/1-22.htm]1 Peter 1:22, YLT[/url] and John 3:21 which make the point about "obedient".

By the way, "yield" means "to give up" or "concede" (yield definition at The Free Dictionary), and the word "yield" lacks inclusion of "choose".

Christ4Ever said:

Just like before, if it doesn’t explicitly say "choose" but is worded in a way that suggests decision-making by a person, and you still reject it. Isn’t decision-making—or the absence of it—exactly what we’re discussing?

Click to expand...

Not exactly yet incidentally because this thread is about Christ's atonement along with the results of whether one believes that the whole world includes everybody everywhere in all time or the whole world includes exclusively the people whom God chooses for Christ's atonement to apply. Please see the original post.

Christ4Ever said:

Yet man has the responsibility of accepting and acting accordingly. (John 3:16, 36)

Click to expand...

There is no "accepting" in:
Which truly contain "believes" for the person having eternal life, and this very "believes" is defined by the Word of God “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) as well as the "acting accordingly" covered by the Word of God “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, that his works may be revealed, that they are having been worked in God” (John 3:21).

God at work in man causes both "believes" and "acting accordingly".

Christ4Ever said:

And non-Free-willian Philosophy has a very weak God who is unable to consider free-will while ensuring atonement. lol

Click to expand...

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Almighty God is Sovereign and unmatchably measurably strong and not dependent on man's purported free-will.

Christ4Ever said:

Let's hold off for now on this back and forth. I want to wait to see about the "God's Will", which is really the driver to whether "Free-Will" exists or not. Thanks.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

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Self-willed Tyler Robinson (2 Peter 2:9-10) confessed to murdering Charlie Kirk according to publicly released text messages.

Tyler Robinson had a will separated from God.

You have confused unbiblical "free-will" with Biblical self-will.

Love,
Kermos

Kermos said:

Hi Christ4Ever,

You asked a leading question in your first paragraph and a second question in yiyr second paragraph, but in your last paragraph you want to hold off, so I'll hold off after responding to your post if you also hold off after this post.

At the conclusion of this post is a consideration of alleged Charlie Kirk murderer Tyler Robinson.



The "yielding" in the Webster's Dictionary definition for the word "obedient" that you presented is a work of God according to Christian instruction "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure"
(Philippians 2:13 (NASB1995)).

I look at how you chopped off the quotations of [https://biblehub.com/1_peter/1-22.htm]1 Peter 1:22, YLT[/url] and John 3:21 which make the point about "obedient".

By the way, "yield" means "to give up" or "concede" (yield definition at The Free Dictionary), and the word "yield" lacks inclusion of "choose".



Not exactly yet incidentally because this thread is about Christ's atonement along with the results of whether one believes that the whole world includes everybody everywhere in all time or the whole world includes exclusively the people whom God chooses for Christ's atonement to apply. Please see the original post.



There is no "accepting" in:

​

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.​

(John 3:16)​

​

He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.​

(John 3:16)​

​

Which truly contain "believes" for the person having eternal life, and this very "believes" is defined by the Word of God “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) as well as the "acting accordingly" covered by the Word of God “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, that his works may be revealed, that they are having been worked in God” (John 3:21).

God at work in man causes both "believes" and "acting accordingly".



The Truth (John 14:6) is that Almighty God is Sovereign and unmatchably measurably strong and not dependent on man's purported free-will.



Self-willed Tyler Robinson (2 Peter 2:9-10) confessed to murdering Charlie Kirk according to publicly released text messages.

Tyler Robinson had a will separated from God.

You have confused unbiblical "free-will" with Biblical self-will.

Love,
Kermos

Click to expand...

Your a very manipulative spirit or your try to be your a funny one too..

I believe you may be like satan himself at this point n that is that you truly believe your lies your half truths .
You can't even come to a conclusion or you just don't want to .

I really hope you encounter the True Creator..

There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his

The two thieves that was by Christ one took responsibility for his actions he new he choose to do evil the other he did not

Ya remind me of the one that don't want to take responsibility for their actions I suppose it's comfortable for you there..

Free will free to make a choice either to do your will the devil's or or try n learn to do good which is The Creators will is your choice n you dancing with Scripture to justify your wants is not a very smart move on anyones part..
Ever wonder what blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is..
I hope you decide to take counsel with the Lord but for some reason I highly doubt you will.. seems you have a problem with that..
Chrstians like you just enforce my conclusion that there is an evil spirit that has mingled itself in the Christianity people.. them leaders got a strong hold spell on many..
Fruits seem to be pride to be honest every one need to teach smh can't even hold a convo no more can't even make a conclusion to come to the Truth..

I gotta go ponder this is a whole lot bigger then I thought to be honest.

My oh my..

Lord have Mercy on us All

ಥ⁠╭⁠╮⁠ಥ

Twistie said:

All questions have a yes and no that's like saying there is no right or wrong
That's why I wrote what is written about people like that..

Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Personally it boggles me idk perhaps I just get on peoples nerves or something n that's why many call me names.. idk I get tired of saying this but perhaps it would help new people I converse with understand me a bit better.

Tho I can read I basically can't follow what I read after a certain point I'm also unable to learn new things unless one can sit n show me day after day for about a week n then I gotta do it every day to remember been like this since a youngin I have had some major trauma to the brain a few times just got tired of docs.. learned to live with it..

Everything that I do know about the Word is from Him He has taught and guided me.. n this i do know I know He is not the best of confusion He is never in a grey area I know He means what's He says n says what He means n that He will never steer me wrong..

I know that as close I am to Him now it's of my choice if I wish to praise Him all day or if I wanna go hold up the store down the street I know I am in control of my actions n my decision..
So when I hear one claim he ain't got free will kind sounds to me like they trying to cop out of the responsibility of being responsible for their choice to do evil..

Idk it is written let your yes be yes n your no be no..

Not a difficult thing to do unless one likes the grey area(Luke warm)

╮⁠(⁠╯⁠_⁠╰⁠)⁠╭

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What you wrote illustrates the confusion between two things the Bible is very clear on: God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility. Scripture does not deny that people make choices. Joshua said to Israel, “Choose you this day whom ye will serve” (Joshua 24:15). That is real accountability. But Jesus also said, “Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin” (John 8:34). A slave does not set himself free. That is why Christ also said, “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him” (John 6:44). Both truths stand together: we are responsible for our sin, but only God can free us from bondage.

You said you know it is your choice if you praise God or rob a store. Scripture agrees you are responsible, but it also says apart from Christ our hearts are bent toward evil. Jeremiah 17: 9 says, “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked.” Paul wrote, “For to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not” (Romans 7:18). That is why man cannot boast in his own free will, because without God’s Spirit, man’s will is enslaved to sin.

When you quote, “let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay” (Matthew 5: 37), that is about honesty in speech, not about reducing every truth of God to a simple yes/no box. Some matters in Scripture require both/and answers. Salvation is the perfect example. Yes, man must repent and believe (Acts 17:30, John 3:16). But yes also, it is God who grants repentance (Acts 11:18) and faith (Philippians 1:29).

The bottom line is this: blaming “free will” does not exalt God, it makes man the final decider. But Scripture says salvation is “not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy” (Romans 9:16). That truth strips away excuses and gives all glory to God.

I have explained this best way I know how. So lets just drop it and praise God for who He is.

Christ4Ever said:

Very interesting discussion, we are having here brethren!
Rather than free-willians, how about Compatibilists and those non-free-willians as Determinists.

To get to the crux of this matter concerning free-will, and whether humanity has it or not, and which by the way covers even so much more than just atonement. We must discuss and see if we can come to an understanding about something else. The question we must know is what is God's Will? So, this is where I believe we should start, which is what is God's will and what does it encompass? Does it dictate all of humanities thoughts/actions or just some of them?

The answer each of you give will (no pun intended) align you on one of the sides of this free-will discussion, but more importantly should help us in understanding how we each understand "God's Will" to mean to us and biblically moving forward.

Below is something that I found from Bible Hub that makes it pretty generally speaking clear to the positions we are looking at and gives a general composition of God's Will. You are welcome to add or take away from it to make your own comprehensible to us the reader. Which I hope you do.

"God's Will refers to His sovereign and intentional plan for creation and humanity, as revealed in the Bible. It encompasses both God's decreed will, which is immutable and will come to pass, and God's moral will, which includes His desires for how we should live. While some interpretations suggest that God's Will dictates all human thoughts and actions, others emphasize the importance of free will and personal responsibility."

I can research and find arguments for both sides of the free-will debate, as it has been a topic of discussion long before Christianity. However, they are really based upon how we understand God's Will. Expressing it in our own words would help us clearly and simply convey how we interpret God's Will and its impact on our being/existence in Christ Jesus.

Thank-you for listening, to the above, and I hope you will take it under consideration.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

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Dear Christ4Ever,

I'd prefer for the new topic be moved to it's own thread, but I defer to you on the matter.

God has one will, not two wills as proffered by the BibleHub quotation you presented.

The concept of "desire" is a dissatisfied state of being because of not possessing something, and this concept bears out per James words of "you desire and do not have" (James 4:2).

Desire and will are intimately related.

Do you see that the BibleHub author conflated "God's desire" for what the author calls "God's moral will"?

That human redefinition has a cascade effect within the free-willian framework (I believe it is a lie to use the term "compatibilist" as a replacement for "free-willian" because I believe free-will is incompatible with the Word of God).

Job said to YHWH "no purpose of Yours can be thwarted" (Job 42:2), so God's purpose, which is indicative of God's will, is done/realized/attained whether in the past, present, and/or future.

Thus, the Sovereign Almighty God's will is always achieved, and this Holy God's desire is always satisfied at some point; moreover, God is always good, so God's will is always good.

God's will is that Christ atone for the sin of the world.

Self-willed man is evil (2 Peter 2:9-10), just as shown in post #101. The only Way (John 14:6) for man to be saved from the wrath of God is that "the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost" (Luke 19:10) at God's exclusive discretion "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16) to the righteous glory of God!

Christ-image willed man is good because of being in Christ (Romans 8:29).

The Lord willing, I will make a much more detailed post with the heading of The Unchangeableness of God and the Will of God on this crucial matter, soon.

Love,
Kermos

The Unchangeableness of God and the Will of God​

Many people preach that God has a free-will.

The common free-willian refrain is along the lines of “God has freewill. Christ has freewill. Man was made in their image/likeness. Result? = Man has free will.” (an actual free-willian quote).

So, the free-willian philosophy holds that God free-will chooses to change between good and evil, and, since God created man in God’s image according to God’s likeness (Genesis 1:26), then man does precisely the same as God; therefore, man free-will chooses to change between good and evil.

A Will Requires A Host​

First, the definition of free must be considered.

Free denotes:

1. of autonomy:
   • (noun) no constraint, uncontrolled, liberty, not enslaved, emancipation.
   • (verb) disentangled, extricate, untangle.
2. of property:
   • (noun) complimentary, without charge, gratis, no payment required.
   • (verb) give away, sacrifice.

The subject is not of property regarding free-will, so the subject is focused of autonomy regarding free-will.

The word “free” represents a relative concept, as shown in the following paragraph; in other words, a person is “free” from “something”.

A person in a constitutional republic, such as the U.S.A., is free to start a business (free from being captives of the tyranny of the King of Great Britain per the U.S. Declaration of Independence), but a person in a communist country, such as North Korea, is NOT free to start a business (communist citizens are captives (owned) by their government).

Second, the definition of free-will must be considered.

Free-will: an autonomous will, an isolated willpower, detached volition, independent moral agency.

Next, considering “will”, a will exists not in a vacuum; in other words, a will must be part of a host.

Respecting an unsaved person – the default first condition of every person, since a host (person) is required to host a will, then the person’s will is part of the person’s self, so the person’s will is self-will because the person’a will is attached to the self-same person; on the other hand, the person’s will is not free floating detached from the person, so the person’s will is not free-will.

The Apostle proclaims a person’s will is either one of but not both of:

• a person’s will is controlled by God with "Your souls having purified in the obedience of the truth through the Spirit to brotherly love unfeigned, out of a pure heart one another love ye earnestly" ([https://biblehub.com/1_peter/1-22.htm]1 Peter 1:22, YLT[/url]) and “it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure” (Philippians 2:13).
• a person’s will is controlled by man with “the Lord knows how” “to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority, daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties” (2 Peter 2:9-10).

A person’s will is dependent upon God (Christimage-will (bond-will), Romans 8:29), or a person’s will is dependent upon man (self-will, 2 Peter 2:9-10). No other will exists for a person; moreover, free-will is an illusion as conveyed by the Apostle Paul with “I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will” (Philemon 1:14).

While the unrighteous unbelievers daringly revel in their own glory founded in their self-willed “I chose Jesus” (2 Peter 2:9-10) thus their hearts steal King Jesus Christ’s glory, on the other hand, we righteousness of God in Christ believers worship the Glorious One (2 Corinthians 5:21) who sovereignly chose us (John 15:16, John 15:19 includes salvation).

Thus says Adonai YHWH (Lord GOD) “I am YHWH; that is my name; my glory I give to no other” (Isaiah 42:8), yet the free-willians try to steal God’s exclusive glory in the salvation of man.

God’s Will is not free will because a free-will does not have a host, yet a host is required for an associated will to exist; therefore, the Will of God is God’s Will. See God’s Will mentioned in 1 Peter 2:15.

NO SCRIPTURE STATES THAT GOD HAS A FREE-WILL.

God is unchangingly good (Malachi 3:6, Psalm 107:1) for the Word of God says “no one is good except God alone” (Mark 10:18), so God is exclusively good all the time while at the same time God never changes to being evil.

In effect, free-willian philosophy includes that God imparted God-like free-will into man, and it is established that man free-will chooses between being good and being evil according to man’s God-like free-will; therefore, God’s free-will results in God fluctuating between good and evil because man’s God-like free-will fluctuates between good and evil, so God changes to being evil by free-willian philosophers preaching that God has free-will.

THE RESULT, MAN CANNOT HAVE A GOD-LIKE FREE-WILL BECAUSE GOD CANNOT HAVE A FREE-WILL.

NO SCRIPTURE STATES THAT MAN HAS A FREE-WILL.

Free-will philosophy includes the man generated foundation that, by free-will, man can choose to be evil or good, even the ability for a natural man to free-will choose Jesus Christ unto the good of saving himself from the wrath of God.

The Word of God declares:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

The only way for free-willian philosophers to acheive free-will is for free-willians to add to the Word of God, and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

Every person has a will, but a person’s will is either one of but not both of (1) a self-will against God in evil for the natural flesh person (2 Peter 2:9-10) or (2) a will in Christ doing God’s good by the Holy Spirit for the Born of God (Romans 8:29, Philippians 2:13, John 3:3-8).

Hello Kermos,
Since no one wants to address the question about God's Will, it is best to then just continue as we were. In truth until you answer the question of God's Will, you will only have a partial truth. Your additional post does nothing to actually address God's Will, but rather is an extension of your non-free-willian/determinist position. Scripture, is not meant to be seen in bits and pieces to decide upon questions of great conjecture and no sure standing. This deciding on whether free-will exists or not has been ongoing long before any of us here on Talk Jesus even knew there was the possibility of such a thing. With many men more astute and learned than you...or I

We either always assumed it was so, continued that way, or came to a decision that it did not exist when free-will was first brought to our attention. Since, free-will to you does not exist, then someone else must have introduced you to this thought. It could not have been self-realization because that would require free-will. That I continue in free-will thought, would mean if it doesn't exist that it was decided for me as well.

And since the source must be the same, neither can be wrong or the source told one of us a lie. I hope you are beginning to see why God's Will, and understanding it is important to these types of questions. To wrestle with the question of free will, it's essential to consider the entirety of scripture, as it reveals much about God's Will and provides an understanding of who God is. While it may take eternity to fully grasp Him, we cannot overlook this crucial aspect in our exploration of free-will. Claiming something is God's will, even when it conflicts with your non-free-will/determinist beliefs, doesn't invalidate its existence. This is evident in the mention of self-will, which, under a non-free-will/determinist perspective, cannot truly exist unless God's will necessitate compulsion to permit it. Are you suggesting that these actions occur because God ensures there is no alternative no matter how much certain people are self-will, seek or study to do otherwise? You can't use God's Will without explaining how in one part of Scripture it shows He dictates what will happen, while in other parts He requires man to make decisions as to what will happen.

Kermos said:

You asked a leading question in your first paragraph and a second question in yiyr second paragraph, but in your last paragraph you want to hold off, so I'll hold off after responding to your post if you also hold off after this post.

At the conclusion of this post is a consideration of alleged Charlie Kirk murderer Tyler Robinson.

Click to expand...

Christ4Ever said:

Not to stop what I have since posted on God's Will, but to the dictionary link what does "yielding" mean to you if not a conscious decision by coercion or persuasion of the individual in question?

Click to expand...

Kermos said:

The "yielding" in the Webster's Dictionary definition for the word "obedient" that you presented is a work of God according to Christian instruction "it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure"
(Philippians 2:13 (NASB1995)).

I look at how you chopped off the quotations of [https://biblehub.com/1_peter/1-22.htm]1 Peter 1:22, YLT[/url] and John 3:21 which make the point about "obedient".

By the way, "yield" means "to give up" or "concede" (yield definition at The Free Dictionary), and the word "yield" lacks inclusion of "choose".

Click to expand...

Then by your own definition of "yield", it is a free-will decision. That is what you do not want to accept. God, has humanity choosing/deciding all the time. Even if He uses coercion or persuades it still requires free-will in the person to come to deciding His Will is best or not. This is why I went with asking all here to add what they believed what God's Will is. As a non-free-willain/determinist you believe it excludes free-will, while I do not. You rest your case because it lacks one word "choose", while everything else points that is exactly what He is requiring of man to do by using decide.

I'm sure you hang your hat on Proverbs 16:9, while I tell you that Romans 12:2 makes even the thoughts a decision-making requirement of man to fulfill.

Go, to Philippians 2:12-13 and answer me how "working out your own salvation" can be accomplished without humanity having decision making ability?

The questions and verses go on and on, even as scripture shows God's Will. So, just saying it's God's Will, is because you have no answer that allows for man to have decision-making ability, within God's Will by not including free-will as part of God's Will for humanity.

Christ4Ever said:

Yet man has the responsibility of accepting and acting accordingly. (John 3:16, 36)

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Kermos said:

There is no "accepting" in:
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.(John 3:16)He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.(John 3:16)Which truly contain "believes" for the person having eternal life, and this very "believes" is defined by the Word of God “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) as well as the "acting accordingly" covered by the Word of God “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, that his works may be revealed, that they are having been worked in God” (John 3:21).

God at work in man causes both "believes" and "acting accordingly".

Click to expand...

No accepting? So, "whoever believes" is not a decision-making notation? To answer so you don't have to. It falls under a moral responsibility, which is part of God's Will for us. This is also the case in v36.
"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." John 3:36

If that is the case that there is no moral responsibility for humanity within God's Will, then there are no options for humanity to follow God's Laws if one is not compulsed to do so by God. If so, are you believing that God has made man break His Laws just because its His will?

Christ4Ever said:

And non-Free-willian Philosophy has a very weak God who is unable to consider free-will while ensuring atonement. lol

Click to expand...

Kermos said:

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Almighty God is Sovereign and unmatchably measurably strong and not dependent on man's purported free-will.

Click to expand...

You see it as dependence, but I see it as a relationship between God and humanity. Allowing free will doesn't make God reliant on people; rather, it opens the door for a deeper, more authentic connection than one where humans have master/slave with no choice and are simply forced to comply.

Christ4Ever said:

Let's hold off for now on this back and forth. I want to wait to see about the "God's Will", which is really the driver to whether "Free-Will" exists or not. Thanks

Click to expand...

Kermos said:

Self-willed Tyler Robinson (2 Peter 2:9-10) confessed to murdering Charlie Kirk according to publicly released text messages.

Tyler Robinson had a will separated from God.

You have confused unbiblical "free-will" with Biblical self-will.

Click to expand...

Stop overthinking things. I'm not the one who's confused, if that's the impression you got from what I wrote earlier.

Anyway, to play along. Doesn't self-will without free-will suggest that it ultimately aligns with God's will, since humanity does not have the ability to make choices that go against God's plan for them? So, that they are just following God's Will anyway?

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

bdavidc said:

Let’s be clear, this is not my wisdom, it’s simply what God’s Word says. Scripture never speaks of man as having an independent “free-will.” It shows man either as a slave to sin (John 8: 34, Romans 8:7) or as one made alive and led by the Spirit (Romans 8:14). Left to himself, man follows his own corrupt self-will that ends in destruction (2 Peter 2:10, Titus 3:3). When God saves, He changes the heart and the will: “A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you” (Ezekiel 36:26), and “it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure” (Philippians 2:13).

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Praise Jesus!

bdavidc said:

At the same time, God truly calls all to repent: “He now commandeth all men every where to repent” (Acts 17:30), and the promise is real that “whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Romans 10:13). Yet many refuse, just as Jesus said, “Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life” (John 5:40). The Bible shows both truths: salvation is entirely God’s work, and the ruin of the sinner is his own unbelief and rejection of truth. The glory belongs to God alone, because His Word makes it plain: salvation is of the Lord (Jonah 2:9), and damnation is of man’s self-will.

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Hallelujah!

The call to repentance must be heard and understood.

Regarding the hearing, "Everyone who is of the Truth hears My voice" (John 18:37). As I suspect you have heard, Christ is the Truth (John 14:6).

Regarding the understanding, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given" (Matthew 13:11) and "This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand" (Matthew 13:13).

God causes repentance in man:

To God be the glory, now and forever!

Love,
Kermos

Christ4Ever said:

Hello Kermos,
Since no one wants to address the question about God's Will

Click to expand...

Hi Christ4Ever,

I honored your request about God's will with two posts, starting with post #104. I imagine you are quite busy or maybe the system didn't update your alerts with that reply to you.

The Lord willing, I will respond to the remainder of your post that I truncated off after I respond to others.

In Christ's service,
Kermos

Christ4Ever said:

Hello Kermos,
Since no one wants to address the question about God's Will

Click to expand...

Christ4Ever said:

Your additional post does nothing to actually address God's Will, but rather is an extension of your non-free-willian/determinist position.

Click to expand...

Kermos said:

I honored your request about God's will with two posts, starting with post #104. I imagine you are quite busy or maybe the system didn't update your alerts with that reply to you.

Click to expand...

I guess I should have used the post number as another way of acknowledging having seen it.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

Kermos said:

The only way for free-willian philosophers to acheive free-will is for free-willians to add to the Word of God, and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

Every person has a will, but a person’s will is either one of but not both of (1) a self-will against God in evil for the natural flesh person (2 Peter 2:9-10) or (2) a will in Christ doing God’s good by the Holy Spirit for the Born of God (Romans 8:29, Philippians 2:13, John 3:3-8).

Click to expand...

Determinist philosophy, or the belief in non-free will, suggests that humanity lacks the ability to make decisions independently of God's will. According to this view, God must be the ultimate puppeteer, as the only will that truly exists is God's, which humanity perceives as their own. This implies that the measure of faith given to everyone by God cannot save anyone on its own and must either be discounted or categorized. Since all possess this measure of faith, it is insufficient to save without God's will. This faith must also be divided or seen as different—guiding some to fulfill God's will and others to follow self-will. One faith, two distinct outcomes.

I included this part to show that I didn’t overlook your post, and as I mentioned, it wasn’t really about God’s will but rather about free will.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

Jeff Bacon said:

Christ died for all sins for every person for all time.

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Hello Jeff Bacon,

Your statement "Christ died for all sins for every person for all time" leads directly to the following:

• if Tom of the world chooses to believe in Christ before he dies, then God must profit Tom with eternal life being saved from the wrath of God.
• if Nancy of the world chooses to believe not in Christ right until her dying thoughts, then God must punish Nancy with eternal damnation being under the wrath of God.
• The conclusion: Christ's atonement succeeded in saving Tom of the world, and Christ's atonement failed in saving Nancy of the world.

So, your statement indicates that you believe in Christ's failure atonement.

Jeff Bacon said:

However, in His sovereignty, he established free will.

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Your philosophy has two unfractureable foibles, listed in order of importance:

• No Word of God declares man was imparted a free-will by God, so free-will of man is an illusion developed by man.
• Logical examination dictates that free-will of man is illogical.

Many engaged in discourse about the first crucial point in this thread, in a direct manner.

Now, let's you and I look at the second point in a direct manner.

"Not forced" and "detached" are referring to the the same concept with respect to free-will. Perhaps an analogy will help.

Car and Tow Truck Analogy​

Imagine a shiny red sports car free and zipping through mountain roads. The car's engine roaring through the straight aways, and the car coasting into the curves with the racer's foot anticipatorially over the accelerator pedal, ready for the scream of the tires as the car leaves the curve entering the next straightaway.

When the car is detached from a tow truck, then the self-propelled car is not forced by the tow truck; moreover, the car moves because of the car's engine, so the car is forced by the car's own engine itself.

On the other hand...

When the car is attached to a tow truck, then the car is forced by the tow truck; moreover, the car moves because of the tow truck's engine, so the car is not forced by the car's own engine.

We do not say "the engine is free to drive the roads", but we do say "the car is free to drive the roads". After all, the engine by itself goes nowhere because it requires the drivetrain, the wheels, the chassis, and so on; therefore, we refer to the whole system as a car, and "car" is the proper level of abstraction (or classification) to indicate as "free to drive the roads". A tow truck is also "free to drive the roads", so "car" and "tow truck" are at the same abstraction level in reference to "free to drive the roads".

In contrast, "engine" is at the wrong abstraction level in reference to "free to drive the roads" when "car" and "tow truck" are being compared and contrasted with respect to "free to drive the roads". The "car" and the "tow truck" are vehicles, and each vehicle has it's own "engine".

There is no such thing as a free-engine driving around the roads because a free-engine lacks wheels, a passenger compartment, chassis, etc. A free engine does not have a car, so a free-engine is an absurd and nonsense concept.

We must compare like-for-like to arrive at accurate conclusions, so the "car" and the "tow truck" are similarly classed as vehicles for truthful comparison purposes, yet the "tow truck" is dissimilar to the "car engine" which means these fail like-for-like comparison purposes; in other words, the tow truck being compared to the car's engine is a comparison at two different levels of abstraction which renders an illogical comparison resulting in a false conclusion.

For purposes of this car and tow truck analogy, the engine is analogous to "will", and the car is analogous to a person, and the tow truck is analogous to God. As can be endemic to analogies, this analogy employs shadow that is overwhelmingly inferior to the substance, yet it accurately and sufficiently conveys the concept.

Essentially, the word "free" is the wrong terminology in the phrase "free-will" because a "will" is attached to a particular person; therefore, the appropriate terminology for a person's self-controlled "will" is "self-will" for humans (2 Peter 2:9-10).

Truly, you are talking about "detached will" in reference to free-will, so freewill is a nonsense word.

Since the word free-will is a senseless, self-contradictory word, then the word freewill is also an unbiblical word.

In Biblical terminology, a person is "driven" by self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10), or a person is "driven" by the Will of God (Philippians 2:13).

As I wrote previously, largely, I use free will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ. This narrows the focus, so the distinction between salvation (Philippians 2:13) and damnation (2 Peter 2:9-10) is highly relevant.

Jeff Bacon said:

Everyone has a choice to accept or reject Jesus.

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Your statement "Everyone has a choice to accept or reject Jesus" is untrue because Lord Jesus says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation).

Jeff Bacon said:

That is not a failure. That is God's sovereign plan. If someone rejects Jesus, that is their own failure.

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Intertwined inside of your statements of "Christ died for all sins for every person for all time" (about atonement) and "That is not a failure. That is God's sovereign plan. If someone rejects Jesus, that is their own failure" (about salvation), you detached atonement from salvation in your explanation, after which you left atonement as everyone everywhere in all time but you limited your focus down to only people who have salvation. You broke the classes of people about whom you were talking because when you changed your focus to salvation then you left Christ's atonement in a state of failure.

You switched from atonement over to salvation, then you tried to use your wrongly shifted argument for salvation to address the specific point about atonement.

You believe that Christ's atonement applies to everybody everywhere in all time (the whole world) which means that you believe Christ atoned for people in hell. See the opening post in this thread.

I believe that Christ's atonement applies to only the people whom Christ chooses (the whole world) which means I believe Christ atoned exclusively to people Christ places in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Jeff Bacon said:

If God wants to extend grace to someone who has never heard the gospel, that is His prerogative.
The debt is paid in full. Some just love the darkness more than the light. John 3:19-21.

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Lord Jesus is the Light (John 1-4)!

You closed your post by adulterating Christ's words in your paraphrase of:

Now, the contrast is plainly obvious:

Free-will is a conjured concept of the traditions of men leading to worship in vain (Matthew 15:9).

In Truth (John 14:6), the Almighty God is Sovereign (Genesis 1:1) in man's salvation and affairs of man (Daniel 4:34-35)! PRAISE JESUS!!!

Love,
Kermos

Twistie said:

Let your yes be yes n no be no very simple something that it seems many can't do..

◖⁠⚆⁠ᴥ⁠⚆⁠◗

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Would you explain why you wrote the above in response to the following?

Twistie said:

And that is why He put a new heart why one must ne born again of the spirit n you are still in the flesh it's why your so stuck on what your stuck in lol imagine the Creator got a force Love lol
Y'all flesh born is funny creatures..
I surely hope you humble yourself to allow the Spirit of the Lord to show you just How powerful He is n He don't need to force nothing to Love Him for if He was gonna do so then the Angels never would of been able to seek their will over His..

Sure hope you encounter the Living God tho..

ᕙ⁠[⁠･⁠۝･⁠]⁠ᕗ

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Twistie said:

If I tell you you make no sense to me why would you write all that stuff do you think imma take in your words when you don't even make no sense?

You can't answer simple questions you give half answers n like to word dance I'm not into that..

Your not interested in discussing your interested in converting and teaching others your way(pride)

Hope you encounter the Living God The True Creator because He is beautiful..


ʘ⁠‿⁠ʘ

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Hi Twistie,

You wrote "I tell you you make no sense to me" in response to the Word of God “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation); therefore, this Holy Spirit inspired word applies to you "natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (1 Corinthians 2:14).

Love,
Kermos

KingJ said:

You want to take a stab at a formal debate? You need to answer a question without dancing. Direct question, direct answer.

I am up for trying.

1. Provide a dictionary definition for the word 'partial'.
2. Since there is an eternal heaven and hell, how is God removing our free will not partiality? or
3. Explain how God is just if He is partial.

The problem is that in every post so far you dance on point 1.

Click to expand...

Barrister KingJ,

You do not define procedure. You closed out the Truth (John 14:6) in your #2.

1. The adjective partial defines as:

2. There is no such thing as "free-will", so there was no free-will for God to remove (see post #72):
3. Your self-contradictory statement shows your antipathy against Spiritual Truth (John 14:6) discourse.

A Child of God,
Kermos

Kermos said:

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

Click to expand...

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?"

Sometimes Jesus chooses those He knows are going to fail. So the fact that Jesus chooses some... matters not.

Kermos said:

The call to repentance must be heard and understood.

Regarding the hearing, "Everyone who is of the Truth hears My voice" (John 18:37). As I suspect you have heard, Christ is the Truth (John 14:6).

Regarding the understanding, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given" (Matthew 13:11) and "This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand" (Matthew 13:13).

God causes repentance in man:

The Christ of us Christians says
“I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25).

And, the apostles and elders are in accord with Jesus’ words with thier saying, “Well then, God has given to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life” (Acts 11:18).

So, clearly, Jesus’ words in Matthew 11:25 state that God exclusively causes man to think differently after an encounter with God (repent means to think differently afterward)

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I certainly agree with much of what you have written. God does call all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17: 30), and whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved (Romans 10:13), so all the glory goes to God because salvation is of the Lord (Jonah 2:9). And yet, Jesus was just as clear that the sinner’s ruin is of his own unbelief and rejection of the truth: “Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life” (John 5:40).

Yes, it is true that repentance is something God grants. The apostles said, “Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life” (Acts 11:18). Paul told Timothy that God might “peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth” (2 Timothy 2:25). But this doesn’t mean that God repents in place of man, nor that there is no responsibility placed on the sinner’s shoulders. The command remains direct: “Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out” (Acts 3:19). God grants, God enables by His Spirit, God draws. But the sinner must respond.

The error comes when we take the truth that God grants repentance and contort it into something that says man has no accountability. That flies in the face of the rest of Scripture. It is God’s will that “all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2:4), and yet they rebel. Jesus wept over Jerusalem and said, “How often would I have gathered thy children together… and ye would not” (Matthew 23:37). Both of these are true, and they stand side by side. God grants, and man is commanded.

Yes, repentance is the gift of God. But it is also the responsibility of man. Anything less is less than the full counsel of God’s Word.

bdavidc said:

Yes, repentance is the gift of God. But it is also the responsibility of man. Anything less is less than the full counsel of God’s Word.

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Since you and Kermos don't believe in free will, and it's humanity's responsibility to make decisions, how can he do that without the free will to act, even if he has a presumed measure of faith sufficient to do so?

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

Christ4Ever said:

Since you and Kermos don't believe in free will, and it's humanity's responsibility to make decisions, how can he do that without the free will to act, even if he has a presumed measure of faith sufficient to do so

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Since I only go by what the bible actually teaches and not man's opinion, what I believe comes straight from the bible. The bible says man must choose. “Choose you this day whom ye will serve” Joshua 24:15. “Choose life” Deuteronomy 30:19. You can repent and follow Jesus, or you can go your own way.

But Jesus also said, “No man can come to me, except the Father… draw him” John 6:44. God pulls on every heart, but He does not force anyone. If a person refuses, that’s their choice.

At Pentecost, Peter preached, the people felt cut to the heart, and they chose to repent Acts 2:37–41. God called, they answered.

So it’s both: God draws, and man must choose. Without Him we can do nothing John 15:5. With Him, we can believe and follow.

Christ4Ever said:

Hello Kermos,
Since no one wants to address the question about God's Will, it is best to then just continue as we were. In truth until you answer the question of God's Will, you will only have a partial truth. Your additional post does nothing to actually address God's Will, but rather is an extension of your non-free-willian/determinist position.

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Hello Christ4Ever,

In Truth (John 14:6), God controls me (2 Corinthians 5:14) with prior proclamation of the Word of God detailing God's will "I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me" (John 5:30) and in "I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do" (John 17:4).

In stark contrast to Christ's words of "I can do nothing on My own initiative", you say you do choose God in your own initiative/will.

Christ says "I have given you an example" (John 13:15).

Christ4Ever said:

Scripture, is not meant to be seen in bits and pieces to decide upon questions of great conjecture and no sure standing. This deciding on whether free-will exists or not has been ongoing long before any of us here on Talk Jesus even knew there was the possibility of such a thing. With many men more astute and learned than you...or I

We either always assumed it was so, continued that way, or came to a decision that it did not exist when free-will was first brought to our attention. Since, free-will to you does not exist, then someone else must have introduced you to this thought. It could not have been self-realization because that would require free-will. That I continue in free-will thought, would mean if it doesn't exist that it was decided for me as well.

And since the source must be the same, neither can be wrong or the source told one of us a lie. I hope you are beginning to see why God's Will, and understanding it is important to these types of questions. To wrestle with the question of free will, it's essential to consider the entirety of scripture, as it reveals much about God's Will and provides an understanding of who God is. While it may take eternity to fully grasp Him, we cannot overlook this crucial aspect in our exploration of free-will. Claiming something is God's will, even when it conflicts with your non-free-will/determinist beliefs, doesn't invalidate its existence. This is evident in the mention of self-will, which, under a non-free-will/determinist perspective, cannot truly exist unless God's will necessitate compulsion to permit it. Are you suggesting that these actions occur because God ensures there is no alternative no matter how much certain people are self-will, seek or study to do otherwise? You can't use God's Will without explaining how in one part of Scripture it shows He dictates what will happen, while in other parts He requires man to make decisions as to what will happen.

Click to expand...

Do realize, Christ4Ever, that you spent your opening 3 paragraphs without quoting any Holy Scripture yet you tried to correct me with your "To wrestle with the question of free will, it's essential to consider the entirety of scripture, as it reveals much about God's Will and provides an understanding of who God is. While it may take eternity to fully grasp Him, we cannot overlook this crucial aspect in our exploration of free-will. Claiming something is God's will, even when it conflicts with your non-free-will/determinist beliefs, doesn't invalidate its existence", but no Holy Scripture states man was imparted a free-will which means man does not have a free-will ability to choose Lord Jesus, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ declares “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation) which eliminates any latitude for the free-willian precepts of men (Matthew 15:9).

God has had me quote Holy Scripture from the Old Testament and throughout the New Testament, and the whole of Scripture reveals the Sovereignty of God (Daniel 4:34-35) and the helplessness of man apart from God (John 15:5) and the blessing of salvation in God (Matthew 16:17).

Christ4Ever said:

Then by your own definition of "yield", it is a free-will decision. That is what you do not want to accept. God, has humanity choosing/deciding all the time. Even if He uses coercion or persuades it still requires free-will in the person to come to deciding His Will is best or not. This is why I went with asking all here to add what they believed what God's Will is. As a non-free-willain/determinist you believe it excludes free-will, while I do not. You rest your case because it lacks one word "choose", while everything else points that is exactly what He is requiring of man to do by using decide.

Click to expand...

Your presented definition of "obedient" is within the following indented section:
which is from Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - Obedient .

Your term "yielding" is a part of (embedded in) "obedient" which means that "yielding" is not "it is" not "a free-will decision" because "Your souls having purified in the obedience of the truth through the Spirit to brotherly love unfeigned, out of a pure heart one another love ye earnestly" ([https://biblehub.com/1_peter/1-22.htm]1 Peter 1:22, YLT[/url]), so you intentionally yet mistakenly wrote 'Then by your own definition of "yield", it is a free-will decision'.

Christ4Ever said:

I'm sure you hang your hat on Proverbs 16:9, while I tell you that Romans 12:2 makes even the thoughts a decision-making requirement of man to fulfill.

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Then you are surely wrong.

Christ4Ever said:

Go, to Philippians 2:12-13 and answer me how "working out your own salvation" can be accomplished without humanity having decision making ability?

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Holy Spirit inspired Apostle Paul:

Paul expresses that obeyed is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

Paul expresses that work out your salvation is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

Do not be deceived, the good work of obedience is God's will working the Christian's will by the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24).

Christ4Ever said:

The questions and verses go on and on, even as scripture shows God's Will. So, just saying it's God's Will, is because you have no answer that allows for man to have decision-making ability, within God's Will by not including free-will as part of God's Will for humanity.

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I didn't write that man doesn't make decisions, so you do worse than misrepresent that which Christ's love controls me (2 Corinthians 5:14) to post.

See the Car and Truck Analogy at post #72 in this thread which was posted to your attention.

Christ4Ever said:

No accepting? So, "whoever believes" is not a decision-making notation? To answer so you don't have to. It falls under a moral responsibility, which is part of God's Will for us. This is also the case in v36.
"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." John 3:36

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You nullified “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29) with your paragraph, there.

Christ4Ever said:

If that is the case that there is no moral responsibility for humanity within God's Will, then there are no options for humanity to follow God's Laws if one is not compulsed to do so by God. If so, are you believing that God has made man break His Laws just because its His will?

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Your "If that is the case that there is no moral responsibility for humanity within God's Will" contradicts "those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment" (John 5:29).

Christ4Ever said:

You see it as dependence, but I see it as a relationship between God and humanity. Allowing free will doesn't make God reliant on people; rather, it opens the door for a deeper, more authentic connection than one where humans have master/slave with no choice and are simply forced to comply.

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I am a son of my Father in Heaven, and the Author and Perfecter of the Faith (Hebrews 12:2) established this blessed relationship! I depend on my Lord Jesus Christ to keep me safe!

You wrote "non-Free-willian Philosophy has a very weak God who is unable to consider free-will while ensuring atonement. lol" - see your "laugh out loud" about the Lord's salvation.

The Free-willian Philosophy has a very weak God who cannot securely choose man unto atonement and is dependent upon men to free-will choose God ensuring atonement.

Christ4Ever said:

Stop overthinking things. I'm not the one who's confused, if that's the impression you got from what I wrote earlier.

Anyway, to play along. Doesn't self-will without free-will suggest that it ultimately aligns with God's will, since humanity does not have the ability to make choices that go against God's plan for them? So, that they are just following God's Will anyway?

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

Click to expand...

Stop underthinking. Self-willed Tyler Robinson (2 Peter 2:9-10), the self-confessed murderer of Charlie Kirk according to publicly released text messages, acted according to his self-will separated from God.

Only the Sovereign God has the ability to choose Tyler unto salvation and to have Christ's finished atonement apply to Tyler and for Tyler to become a Christ image bearer with a Christ-like will.

Without God's intervention, self-willed Tyler goes to hell.

You have confused unbiblical "free-will" with Biblical self-will. It is confusion to add free-will where free-will is absent in the Word of God.

Love,
Kermos

Kermos said:

Barrister KingJ,

You do not define procedure. You closed out the Truth (John 14:6) in your #2.

1. The adjective partial defines as:

​

2. Favoring one person or side over another or others; biased or prejudiced: a decision that was partial to the plaintiff.​

Click to expand...

There we go, so nice to see you type this. Note the words BIASED. PREJUDICED. FAVORING.

Kermos said:

2. There is no such thing as "free-will", so there was no free-will for God to remove (see post #72):

​

No Holy Scripture indicates man was imparted a free-will by God to even be able to choose Lord Jesus because the Word of God declares:​

• "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16), so God chooses people to be friends (John 15:15, the prior verse) and to believe (John 6:29) and to be born again (John 3:3-8) and for righteous works (John 3:21, John 15:5) and to repent (Matthew 11:25) and to love (John 13:34) and unto salvation (John 15:19 the same passage).
• "I chose you out of the world" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19, includes salvation), so God exclusively chooses people unto salvation.
• "What I say to you I say to all" (Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 13:37 - Jesus had taken the Apostles Peter, Andrew, James, and John aside in private and said this), so all the blessings of God mentioned above are to all believers in all time.

The only way for you to acheive free-will is for free-willians to add to the Word of God, and it is written "do not add to His words or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).​

Click to expand...

You are DODGING the question, in light of YOUR correct line on the definition of partiality above, please re-read and try again.

Kermos said:

​

3. Your self-contradictory statement shows your antipathy against Spiritual Truth (John 14:6) discourse.

​

You believe that God, the Righteous Judge, gives credence to your free-will choosing God, which is, by definition, God being partial to men with their works including you; furthermore, your belief leads to Christ's failure atonement as outlined in the original post.​

​

You believe God trusts your free-will choice, yet it is written "Behold, His servants, He does not trust" (Job 4:18).​

​

I believe that God, the Righteous Judge (Psalm 7:11), gives credence to Lord Jesus, the One Mediator (1 Timothy 2:5), which is, by definition, God being impartial to men with their works including me; furthermore, I believe in Christ's finished atonement as outlined in the original post.​

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You are DODGING the question, in light of YOUR correct line on the definition of partiality above, please re-read and try again.

B-A-C said:

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?"

Sometimes Jesus chooses those He knows are going to fail. So the fact that Jesus chooses some... matters not.

Click to expand...

Hello again, B-A-C,

You exalt yourself above the Sovereign Lord Jesus Christ with your "the fact that Jesus chooses some... matters not" in yoyr reply to the wonderful quotation of His sayings.

Judas Iscariot succeeded at that which was prophesied about him (Zechariah 11:12-13), and Lord Jesus knew the betrayer was Judas Iscariot (John 6:70).

Judas Iscariot departed (John 13:21-30) prior to Lord Jesus issuing the blessings of “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation and atonement) to all believers in Christ.

Love,
Kermos