God is God of course... He can do whatever He wants, whenever He wants. But He doesn't break His word.

Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

God could have done something in the past, but He's not going to do something ..."until"... the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Matt 24:13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
Matt 24:14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
The "end" could come today, or it could come tomorrow... I don't know... but I do know one thing, it won't happen until the gospel
is preached to "whole world" as a testimony to "all" the nations.
Matt 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
Mark 13:32 "But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
Mark 13:33 "Take heed, keep on the alert; for you do not know when the appointed time will come.

These passages could be interpreted a number of ways.
1. Jesus didn't know then, but He knows now.

Mark 13:14 "But when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION standing where it should not be (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

Surely Jesus will know when the abomination of desolation occurs.
Surely Jesus will know when the man of lawlessness takes his place in the temple.

2. Jesus still doesn't know exactly when it will happen, but He knows the events and seasons that signal that time.

Mark 13:7 "When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be frightened; those things must take place; but that is not yet the end.
Mark 13:8 "For nation will rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; there will be earthquakes in various places; there will also be famines. These things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.
Mark 13:9 "But be on your guard; for they will deliver you to the courts, and you will be flogged in the synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them.
Mark 13:10 "The gospel must first be preached to all the nations.

Surely Jesus will see and hear of these things and He will know the time is close.

The argument is... no will know when it's going to happen... I agree with that.
But they continue on to say... Just go with when the tribulation starts, and add 7 years.

Will we know when the tribulation starts? Some say it has already started. So then.. what date are you adding the 7 years to?
How many days are you adding?

Dan 12:11 "From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.
Dan 12:12 "How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days!

B-A-C said:

God is God of course... He can do whatever He wants, whenever He wants. But He doesn't break His word.

Rom 11:25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

God could have done something in the past, but He's not going to do something ..."until"... the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Matt 24:13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
Matt 24:14 "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.
The "end" could come today, or it could come tomorrow... I don't know... but I do know one thing, it won't happen until the gospel
is preached to "whole world" as a testimony to "all" the nations.
Matt 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
Mark 13:32 "But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.
Mark 13:33 "Take heed, keep on the alert; for you do not know when the appointed time will come.

These passages could be interpreted a number of ways.
1. Jesus didn't know then, but He knows now.

Mark 13:14 "But when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION standing where it should not be (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.

Surely Jesus will know when the abomination of desolation occurs.
Surely Jesus will know when the man of lawlessness takes his place in the temple.

2. Jesus still doesn't know exactly when it will happen, but He knows the events and seasons that signal that time.

Mark 13:7 "When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be frightened; those things must take place; but that is not yet the end.
Mark 13:8 "For nation will rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; there will be earthquakes in various places; there will also be famines. These things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.
Mark 13:9 "But be on your guard; for they will deliver you to the courts, and you will be flogged in the synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them.
Mark 13:10 "The gospel must first be preached to all the nations.

Surely Jesus will see and hear of these things and He will know the time is close.

The argument is... no will know when it's going to happen... I agree with that.
But they continue on to say... Just go with when the tribulation starts, and add 7 years.

Will we know when the tribulation starts? Some say it has already started. So then.. what date are you adding the 7 years to?
How many days are you adding?

Dan 12:11 "From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.
Dan 12:12 "How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days!

Click to expand...

God does not live by His word,
He lives by His Spirit. True or false?

Curtis said:

Nowhere does this scripture say the angels are gathering together of his elec to heaven. It is the gathering together for Judgement as it says here.

Mat 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
Mat 25:32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

None of Gods elect (sheep) at this time are raptured they are gathered together and are allowed to enter the Millennial kingdom of God. The goats are cast into the fire.

Mat 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

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Thank you — you just proved my point.

Matthew 24 and Matthew 25 are describing the same event — not a secret rapture before tribulation, but the visible, glorious return of Christ after tribulation, where He gathers His elect and judges the nations.

Matthew 24:29–31

“Immediately after the tribulation… they will see the Son of Man coming… and He will gather His elect.”

When? After the tribulation.
How? With power, angels, and visible glory.
Who? The elect.
Where to? You say not to heaven — fine. But gathered to Christ nonetheless.

Now…

Matthew 25:31–34

“When the Son of Man comes in His glory… He will sit on His throne… and separate the sheep from the goats.”

Same setting. Same Jesus. Same return.
The sheep (the elect) are told to inherit the kingdom.
That is the gathering.
No secret escape. No pre-trib vanishing act.

So your claim that the elect aren’t raptured but are just “gathered for judgment” completely destroys the pre-trib rapture theory. Why?

Because you just admitted that:

The elect are on earth after the tribulation.
They are gathered after the Son of Man returns in glory.
And then they enter the kingdom — not before.

That’s the post-trib gathering — plain as day.

If the elect are raptured before the tribulation,
why does Jesus gather them after the tribulation?

Why are the sheep still on earth when He returns?
Why does He say "Come, inherit the kingdom" — if they’re already with Him in heaven?

Because the truth is what Jesus actually said —
not what Scofield inserted in your study Bible footnotes.

“Immediately after the tribulation… He will gather His elect.” (Matt. 24:29–31)
Not before. Not secretly. Not in stages.

One return.
One gathering.
One judgment.
One Kingdom.

All after the tribulation — just like Jesus said.

And let’s be clear:
Not a single apostle,
not Jesus,
not Paul,
not Peter,
not John,
not one Church Father for over 1,800 years
taught this “secret, pre-tribulation rapture” fantasy you’re pushing.

The early Church faced tribulation, expected persecution, and looked for the glorious return of Christ — after the suffering, just like Jesus said in Matthew 24.

Your position has zero precedent in apostolic teaching, patristic history, or biblical theology.

It was invented in the 1800s by John Nelson Darby, sold to America by the Rockefeller's, Oxford Press and Scofield, and bought by gullible churches more interested in comfort than truth.

If it wasn’t taught by Christ, the apostles, or the early Church —
it’s not Christianity.
It’s a modern delusion with no anchor in the faith once delivered to the saints (Jude 1:3).

And stop twisting the days of Noah.

Jesus said:
“As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man… they were eating and drinking... until the flood came and took them all away; so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.” (Matt. 24:37–39)

Who got taken?
The wicked.
Not Noah.
Not the righteous.
The wicked were “taken” in judgment — and that’s the direct parallel Jesus makes.

So if you’re using that to justify a pre-trib escape pod,
you’ve got it completely backwards.

B-A-C said:

Matt 24:29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Mark 13:24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT,
Mark 13:25 AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.
Mark 13:26 "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27 "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.



That is exactly what it says.

2Thes 2:1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,
2Thes 2:2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
2Thes 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
2Thes 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

It seems anyone who believes otherwise is deceived, or trying to deceive others.
Why would anyone disagree with what the Bible says here?

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The deception is in not "rightly dividing the word of truth". Not "dividing" the difference between Israel as God's elect from the Church as God's elect.

Tit 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness,

Isa 45:4 For Jacob My servant's sake, And Israel My elect, I have even called you by your name; I have named you, though you have not known Me.

If you do not know who God (Jesus) is referring to in his teachings, then you will not understand its meaning.

Jesus never taught any post-tribulation rapture. The resurrection of the dead is NOT a rapture.

Curtis said:

Jesus never taught any post-tribulation rapture

Click to expand...

From what I can see, it's the ONLY rapture He taught.

Matt 24:29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Mark 13:24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT,
Mark 13:25 AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.
Mark 13:26 "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27 "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

Curtis said:

The resurrection of the dead is NOT a rapture.

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I suppose we could argue semantics here, and I would agree they aren't 100% the same exact thing. But they happen at the same time.
Correction. One happens a few milliseconds before the other.

1Cor 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
1Cor 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
1Cor 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

1Thes 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1Thes 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Thes 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

B-A-C said:

1Thes 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
1Thes 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
1Thes 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Click to expand...

These verses describe the rapture of the church. In Jesus second coming there is no rapture only a resurrection of the dead.

Let’s just pretend that there is a rapture of the living and the resurrection of the dead at the end of the great tribulation and all of the wicked destroyed. Who will be left with a human natural body to populate the Millennial kingdom? Who will the church rule over, ourselves?

Curtis said:

The deception is in not "rightly dividing the word of truth". Not "dividing" the difference between Israel as God's elect from the Church as God's elect.

Tit 1:1 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness,

Isa 45:4 For Jacob My servant's sake, And Israel My elect, I have even called you by your name; I have named you, though you have not known Me.

If you do not know who God (Jesus) is referring to in his teachings, then you will not understand its meaning.

Jesus never taught any post-tribulation rapture. The resurrection of the dead is NOT a rapture.

Click to expand...

Ah yes — the Scofield Jedi mind trick:
“Just rightly divide the Word"… and you’ll magically see two elects, two gospels, two second comings, and two separate peoples of God.

Let’s end the delusion.

First: “Rightly dividing” doesn’t mean dividing God’s people

2 Timothy 2:15 says to handle the Word accurately, not carve it into contradictory covenants.

The word “divide” (Greek: orthotomeō) literally means “to cut straight.”
It’s about accuracy, not Scofield’s schizophrenic timeline.

There is ONE olive tree — Romans 11
ONE new man — Ephesians 2:15
ONE flock, ONE Shepherd — John 10:16
ONE elect people — those in Christ

So stop trying to separate what Christ already made one in His blood (Eph. 2:13–16).

Second: Yes, Israel was called God’s elect — but guess what?

Isaiah 45:4 is Old Covenant.
God’s elect were ethnic Israel — because that’s who He was working through at the time.

But now?

“Not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel.” — Romans 9:6
“If you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring.” — Gal. 3:29
“God’s elect” now refers to those in Christ — Jew or Gentile — Titus 1:1, Col. 3:12, 1 Pet. 1:1.

The real elect are the ones who believe in the Messiah — not those who rejected Him.

Third: Jesus did teach a post-trib rapture — in the plainest words possible
“Immediately after the tribulation...
He will send His angels with a great trumpet, and they will gather His elect from the four winds.”
— Matthew 24:29–31

That’s the rapture — and it blows your Scofield fantasy to pieces.

The resurrection is the rapture — Paul said so

“The dead in Christ shall rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds.” — 1 Thess. 4:16–17

You want to tell Paul that’s not the rapture?
Be my guest — but you’ll be arguing with the guy who wrote most of your New Testament.

Your entire doctrine is a house of charts and dispensational sand, built on twisting two words: "elect" and "divide."
The Scofield disciples love quoting 2 Timothy 2:15 ("rightly dividing the word") like it’s a license to chop the Bible into contradictions.

The early Church never taught this.
Jesus never taught this.
Paul never taught this.

Only Scofield and Darby did — and they did it to serve British Israelism, Zionism, and the illusion of two peoples of God.

There is one Bride.
One resurrection.
One return of Christ.
One elect — and they are all in Him.

You’re not rightly dividing — you’re butchering the Word.
And now you’re acting like a missionary for Scofield’s heresy, dragging others into a doctrine that neither Jesus nor a single apostle ever preached.

It’s like if we just “rightly divide” the Word enough…
we can twist the whole story until Emperor Palpatine is the good guy,
and Luke Skywalker & Leia are actually the evil twins who rebelled against the kind and gentle hearts of Emperor Palpatine and Saint Darth Vader — who were, of course, just misunderstood anointed ones trying to bring peace to the galaxy.

That’s what Scofield theology does:
It flips the narrative, rebrands the enemies of Christ as "the chosen",
and reduces the Body of Christ to a footnote —
while the Antichrist builds a third temple in plain sight.

If the apostles and early Church Fathers saw what passes for “theology” in Western Evangelical churches today,
they wouldn’t just rebuke it —
they’d fall to the floor weeping,
shattered by how far the faith has drifted since the Scofield Bible birthed this hell-born deception in 1909.

Mat 24:15 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),
Mat 24:16 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Mrk 13:14 "So when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not" (let the reader understand), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Luk 21:21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.

Who was Jesus speaking to? Are all church members around the world supposed to buy airline tickets and fly to Israel so they can flee to the Judean mountains?

Curtis said:

Mat 24:15 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),
Mat 24:16 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Mrk 13:14 "So when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not" (let the reader understand), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Luk 21:21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.

Who was Jesus speaking to? Are all church members around the world supposed to buy airline tickets and fly to Israel so they can flee to the Judea mountains?

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The classic Scofield tactic:
Take a literal geographic warning given to first-century Jewish disciples,
rip it out of context, and then mock it to pretend it discredits the entire passage.

Let’s be clear:
Jesus was speaking to His disciples — real, historical people in first-century Judea — warning them of the coming destruction of the Temple, which occurred in 70 A.D. under the Roman siege.

Luke 21:20 makes this crystal clear:
“When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near…”

This was a literal, historical warning. And guess what?

The early Church obeyed it —
when they saw the Roman legions approaching, the Christians fled to Pella, in the mountains of Judea, and were spared while the rest of Jerusalem was slaughtered.

So no, we’re not buying airline tickets to flee to the Judean hills in 2025.
That’s a mocking strawman built by someone who hasn’t understood the dual-layered prophecy of Matthew 24.

The Real Interpretation:

Matthew 24 has both immediate and eschatological fulfillment.

First layer: The 70 A.D. judgment on Jerusalem — fulfilled within one generation, just as Jesus said (Matt. 24:34).

Second layer: A picture of the end-time global tribulation, where similar principles apply — warning, persecution, endurance, and the visible return of Christ after tribulation (Matt. 24:29–31).

Even in the end-times layer, Jesus never said anything about the Church flying to Israel.

He said:
“He who endures to the end will be saved.” (Matt. 24:13)
“Immediately after the tribulation… He will gather His elect.” (Matt. 24:29–31)

No rapture escape.
No plane tickets.
No Scofield nonsense.

You're mocking Jesus' words because they don’t fit your Scofield chart.
But the irony is, it’s your theology that’s absurd:

You expect believers to vanish in a secret rapture that Jesus never taught,
while the enemies of Christ inherit the world, rebuild a temple,
and receive God's favor for rejecting the Messiah?

No thanks.

I’ll stick with what Jesus actually said —
not what Satan via Scofield inserted in 1909.

Because if your end-times doctrine
requires you to rewrite the Gospels,
ignore the apostles,
and call those who reject Christ the “chosen people”…
then it’s not prophecy —
it’s blasphemy in a study Bible.

Jud 1:14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints,
Jud 1:15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

Wait a minute.....How can Jesus come back with tens of thousands of His Saints in His second coming unless they have already been raptured and the dead have been raised back to life before this event?

The rapture and the second coming are distinct operations that separate mankind in very different ways.

In rapture passages, we see the saints taken and the ungodly left.
In second-coming passages, we see the ungodly taken and the saints left.

Failure to recognize this distinction leads to confusion.

Rapture passages. The removal of the godly is clearly stated in several passages. In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, the church is snatched out of the world to meet the Lord in the clouds. In John 14:1-3 the church is taken to heaven when the Lord comes for her. In Revelation 4-5 the church is present in heaven before the beginning of the tribulation in Revelation 6. The removal is also implied in various passages. For instance, in Revelation 3:10 we read, “I will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon all the world.” This is definitive if you let the words have their natural force. if the hour of trial comes upon the entire planet, then the only way to keep a man from the hour is to remove him from the planet. We go up. The hour of trial comes down. Second coming passages.

The ungodly are taken away at the second coming because they do not meet the sole qualification to enter the promised kingdom—the new birth. Men must be born again to enter the kingdom (John 3:3). We find the removal of the ungodly very clearly stated in the judgment of the sheep and goats (Matt. 25:31-46), where the goats are removed and cast into hell while the sheep are granted entrance into the kingdom. The removal of the ungodly is also clearly stated in the parable of the net, where the bad fish are removed and the good fish are retained (Matt. 13:47-50), and in the parable of the wheat and tares, where the tares are gathered and burned, while the wheat is gathered into the barn (Matt. 13:24-30, 36-43).

Curtis said:

Jud 1:14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints,
Jud 1:15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."

Wait a minute.....How can Jesus come back with tens of thousands of His Saints in His second coming unless they have already been raptured and the dead have been raised back to life before this event?

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Let me make this painfully clear, because this confusion has gone on long enough — and the wolves who keep peddling it are leading entire churches off a cliff while grinning about their Scofield footnotes.

You’re quoting Jude 1:14 —
“Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints…” —
and using that to argue that Jesus must have already raptured the Church seven years earlier in some secret event nowhere taught by Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, or any apostle.

But that idea is completely made up. It is not in Scripture. It was invented in the 1800s by John Nelson Darby, sold to American evangelicals by C.I. Scofield, and has been warping the Gospel ever since.

Let’s break this down:

1 Thessalonians 4:16–17 gives us the actual sequence — not the Scofield, fantasy novel timeline:

“The Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout… and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air…”

So what happens?

1. The dead in Christ are raised.

2. The living believers are caught up with them.

3. Then together, we meet the Lord in the air.

4. From that point on, we are with Him — and yes, we return with Him to judge the world.

The saints He returns with in Jude 1:14?
That’s us.
The ones He just resurrected and raptured.

No need for a seven-year gap. No secret pre-trib vanishing act. No Scofield escape clause.

Paul says the exact same thing in 1 Corinthians 15:52:
“At the last trumpet… the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

And in Matthew 24:29–31, Jesus flat-out tells you:
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days… He will send His angels to gather His elect from the four winds.”

That is the rapture.
That is the resurrection.
That is the gathering of the saints.

AFTER the tribulation.
At the return of Christ.
At the last trumpet.

There is no separate event seven years earlier. There is no disappearing act. There is no Scofield chart in heaven.

The saints Jesus comes with are the saints He just resurrected and gathered — just like He said He would.

If you can’t see that, it’s not because the Bible is unclear —
it’s because you’ve traded the words of Christ for the lies of a 19th-century heretic.

Stop twisting first-century prophecy into a modern political blueprint.
Stop pretending Jude’s poetic reference to Enoch supports your two-stage Scofield rapture when Paul and Jesus already laid out the timeline.

There is one return.
One resurrection.
One rapture.
One judgment.
One Kingdom.
And it all happens after the tribulation — exactly like Jesus said.

If you believe otherwise, you’re not just confused —
you’re actively spreading a satanic delusion
that turns Christ’s enemies into “chosen people,”
replaces the Church; The Body of Christ with an unbelieving, secularist nation of dirt,
and prepares the world to welcome the Antichrist in the name of “prophecy.

Scofield Dispensationalists aren’t just wrong — they’re worse than the Church of Satan.

Why?

Because at least Satanists admit what they are.
They don’t pretend to follow Christ while promoting a theology that calls Christ’s enemies the “chosen,” splits His Body from His Kingdom, and rewrites His second coming to serve an Antichrist agenda.

But Dispensationalist Evangelicals?
They sit in pews.
Quote Scripture.
Raise their hands in worship.
Then turn around and preach that those who reject Christ are still God's people, that the Church will be evacuated before the tribulation, and that Jesus will restore the Old Covenant system He already fulfilled.

They wear the name of Jesus —
but preach a gospel He never spoke,
prophesy a kingdom He never promised,
and exalt a people who still reject the Cross.

That’s not Christianity.
That’s spiritual treason.

It’s the dragon's doctrine — wrapped in a Christian flag and printed in Scofield’s footnotes.

Jesus said “My sheep hear My voice.” (John 10:27)
Scofield’s sheep hear the voice of Darby, Rothschild, and Zion.

And if that’s what you’re spreading —
you’re not defending the Gospel.
You’re undermining it while pretending to protect it.

That’s worse than open rebellion.
That’s counterfeit Christianity.
And it’s leading millions straight into deception.

Curtis said:

The rapture and the second coming are distinct operations that separate mankind in very different ways.

In rapture passages, we see the saints taken and the ungodly left.
In second-coming passages, we see the ungodly taken and the saints left.

Failure to recognize this distinction leads to confusion.

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You’re the last person on this forum who should be talking about “confusion.”

Your theology is a schizophrenic maze of contradictions and cut-and-paste prophecy fragments.
You’re out here warning people not to be “confused” while preaching that Jesus is coming back twice,
for two different groups,
in two separate phases,
under two covenants —
one for a Church that disappears without warning,
and another for a Christ-rejecting nation of Gentile converts you dare to call “chosen.”

That’s not theology.
That’s Scofield-induced eschatological delirium.

No Apostle, and not a single early Church Father,
preached what you’re shoveling for over 1,800 years.
Your doctrine is so foreign to Scripture it would’ve been anathematized on sight by the early Church.

This warped system —
birthed in the depths of Hell in 1830 and marketed to the West in 1909
through millions of so-called “free Bibles” —
wasn’t designed to reveal the Gospel.
It was engineered to weaponize confusion,
to disarm discernment,
and to pave the way for a Church that calls Christ’s enemies “chosen”
while silencing the very words of Jesus Himself.

And now here you are,
handing out directions like an end-times tour guide,
pointing souls straight toward apostasy,
while calling it “rightly dividing.”

Here’s the real truth:
There is no confusion — unless you’re trying to defend a system
that Jesus never taught,
Paul never preached,
and the apostles never believed.

“Immediately after the tribulation… He will gather His elect.” (Matthew 24:29–31)

That’s the rapture.
That’s the second coming.
That’s the end of the age.

If that confuses you,
it’s not because Scripture is unclear —
it’s because you’ve traded the words of Christ for the madness of Scofield,
and now you’ve mistaken delusion for doctrine.

Curtis said:

the difference between Israel as God's elect from the Church as God's elect.

Click to expand...

why do you always make a distinction between the church and Israel? in lite of scripture that says God does not make a distinction, he sees as believers or non believers in Christ, it is all about Christ not Israel.

Who is this Israel you speak of? is it the Pharisee who Jesus said your father the devil? or is the thousands that God had the earth swallow up in one day in the desert.

Would love to hear more about the Israel you are talking about ,,,that is different then the church but yet are elect? do they have another Shepherd other then Jesus ??because Jesus has only one flock,,,

Galatians 3:28-- There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.​

Romans 10:12---For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.​

Colossians 3:11---Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.​

Acts 10:34-35---So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.​

Romans 2:11--For God shows no partiality.​

As far as trying to make Israel another group what do you do with this scripture where it says Jesus has 1 flock and one shepherd.

John 10:16​

And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

Dave M said:

why do you always make a distinction between the church and Israel? in lite of scripture that says God does not make a distinction, he sees as believers or non believers in Christ, it is all about Christ not Israel.

Who is this Israel you speak of? is it the Pharisee who Jesus said your father the devil? or is the thousands that God had the earth swallow up in one day in the desert.

Would love to hear more about the Israel you are talking about ,,,that is different then the church but yet are elect? do they have another Shepherd other then Jesus ??because Jesus has only one flock,,,

Galatians 3:28-- There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.​

Romans 10:12---For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.​

Colossians 3:11---Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.​

Acts 10:34-35---So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.​

Romans 2:11--For God shows no partiality.​

As far as trying to make Israel another group what do you do with this scripture where it says Jesus has 1 flock and one shepherd.

John 10:16​

And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

Click to expand...

Amen to that post calling out Curtis and the entire Scofield cult for their two-elect schizophrenia.

Let’s get one thing straight lurkers:
There is no “Israel” apart from Christ.
There is no second flock, no side deal, and no future redemption plan for Christ-rejecting nationalists waving a white & blue, demonic Star of Remphan flag in the desert while mocking the Gospel.

“For all the promises of God find their Yes in Him.” — 2 Corinthians 1:20
Not in Tel Aviv. Not in a rebuilt temple. In Him.

Yet these Scofield disciples keep trying to resurrect a fulfilled covenant like Christ never came.
They treat Jesus like a pause button for their Zionist prophecy chart.
They want to climb back into the Old Covenant grave He already rolled the stone away from.

You want to talk about “Israel”?
You mean the same nation that murdered the prophets?
That crucified the Messiah?
That rejected the cornerstone and was told “the kingdom will be taken from you” (Matthew 21:43)?

That “Israel”?

Sorry Scofieldians, but Jesus already told you who true Israel is:

“They are not all Israel who are descended from Israel.” — Romans 9:6

True Israel = those in Christ. Period.

There is ONE olive tree — Romans 11
ONE new man — Ephesians 2:15
ONE body — 1 Corinthians 12:13
ONE temple — Ephesians 2:21
ONE elect — Colossians 3:12
ONE flock, ONE Shepherd — John 10:16

The Scofield brainwashing runs so deep, they’ll quote Paul talking about the “irrevocable calling” in Romans 11 — and ignore that he immediately says those who remain in unbelief will be cut off.

“They were broken off because of unbelief.” — Romans 11:20
“God is able to graft them in again... IF they do not continue in their unbelief.” — Romans 11:23

IF.
Not “when.” Not “no matter what because they're "cHoSeN!.”
IF.

Yet these prophecy junkies have convinced themselves that Christ-denying rebels are still “God’s chosen people” — while the actual Body of Christ is just a parenthetical blip in history.

That’s not the Gospel.
That’s a Zionist heresy wrapped in Scofield footnotes and sold by cowardly preachers afraid to offend their donors.

Christ is not coming back to bless a nation that denied Him, rejects Him, and exalts itself above Him.
He’s coming back to judge the nations — and only those in Him will be spared.

So no, Curtis and other Evangelical lurkers.
There is no second elect.
There is no dual covenant.
There is no future apart from Christ.
And your UN/Rothschild-backed abomination in the Middle East isn’t a prophecy — it’s an open rebellion.

History proves it. Scripture declares it. And Jesus Christ settled it.

“It is finished.” — John 19:30

Stop trying to undo what the Cross already fulfilled.

Let’s be crystal clear here:
The Christ-denying nation squatting in Rothschild’s False Israel™ is not “God’s chosen people.”

They are not “Israel.”
They are Gentile converts to Pharisaic Talmudism who REJECT the Son — and no one who rejects the Son has the Father.

“No one who denies the Son has the Father.” — 1 John 2:23
“Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist.” — 1 John 2:22

So tell me again how they “worship the same God”?
They don’t. It’s not just wrong — it’s blasphemy.

They worship the spirit of Antichrist.
And behind that veil?
The Dragon himself.

“The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.” — Revelation 13:2

The modern, Christ-hating abomination propped up in 1948 isn’t some "holy miracle".
It’s a demonic counterfeit.
It didn’t come from Mount Zion — it came from the United Nations, the British Crown, and the House of Rothschild.
And it exists not to fulfill prophecy — but to mock it.

“Woe to those who call evil good and good evil.” — Isaiah 5:20

They call Jesus a false prophet.
They spit on His name.
They persecute His Gospel.

And yet Scofield disciples dare to call them “God’s elect”?

What Bible are you reading?
Because the Word of God says this:

“There is no distinction between Jew and Greek... the same Lord is Lord of all.” — Romans 10:12
“You are all one in Christ Jesus.” — Galatians 3:28
“One flock, One Shepherd.” — John 10:16

If they’re not in Christ, they’re not the flock.
If they reject the Shepherd, they’re not elect.
If they deny the Son, they worship the dragon.

This is not complex.
It’s only confusing if you’ve been fed Scofield Kool-Aid laced with Zionist poison your whole life.

So wake up.
Jesus isn’t coming back to set up a third temple for goat sacrifices.
He’s coming to judge the world — and only those washed in His blood will stand.

Dave M said:

why do you always make a distinction between the church and Israel? in lite of scripture that says God does not make a distinction, he sees as believers or non believers in Christ, it is all about Christ not Israel.

Who is this Israel you speak of? is it the Pharisee who Jesus said your father the devil? or is the thousands that God had the earth swallow up in one day in the desert.

Would love to hear more about the Israel you are talking about ,,,that is different then the church but yet are elect? do they have another Shepherd other then Jesus ??because Jesus has only one flock,,,

Galatians 3:28-- There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.​

Romans 10:12---For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.​

Colossians 3:11---Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.​

Acts 10:34-35---So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.​

Romans 2:11--For God shows no partiality.​

As far as trying to make Israel another group what do you do with this scripture where it says Jesus has 1 flock and one shepherd.

John 10:16​

And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

Click to expand...

How the Lord deals with Israel is different from how he deals with the Church. Promises made to Israel are still going to be kept in the future. We can be sure that all God has said is true and will take place, because of His character and consistency. The Church does not replace Israel and should not expect a symbolic fulfillment of the promises of the Old Covenant. As one reads Scripture, it is necessary to keep Israel and the Church separate. In the end Israel will be saved through faith in Jesus Christ just like the body of Christ.

God made specific promises to Israel, including blessings, prosperity, and the promise of a specific land, the "Promised Land". These promises were part of the Abrahamic Covenant, which involved a land inheritance and a covenant relationship with God. While some biblical promises extend to all believers, others are specifically directed towards Israel as God's chosen people.
Isa 11:12 He will set up a banner for the nations, And will assemble the outcasts of Israel, And gather together the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth.

This promise from God is NOT directed toward the Church; it is directed to Israel!

Israelites are called outcasts. The term is used several times with the word Israel. It speaks of the outcasts of Israel being gathered when God builds Jerusalem. it is predicted that the outcasts of Israel will be in Palestine and then flee from the Antichrist into Moab for protection for the last three and a half years of this age. All outcasts of Israel will be gathered one by one back to Jerusalem.

Israel, just like the church (body of Christ), is both called God's elect. In the great tribulation, God returns to his chosen people, Israel, to deal with them and to fulfil his promises he made to them.

God will gather his elect (Israel) from the four winds and four corners of the earth back to the original boundaries of Israel, in which God promised Abraham. All this happens in the great tribulation, and the Jews will make up a lot of the people who will populate the Millennial Kingdom, which happens to be in their own promised land.

.

The Gospel of Christ said:

So some drunk from 300AD overrides Jesus Christ?

“Immediately after the tribulation… He will gather His elect.” (Matthew 24:29–31)

I don't think so...

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You have a cherry picked theology as you believe in a works based salvation. The context of that verse is clearly tribulation saints and after the tribulation. Other verses given to you speak of a rapture event. Probably one of the clearest being:

Mat 24:44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

Now the tribulation is a seven year period, so the end is most certainly not an 'hour we do no expect'. I know that you don't believe scripture that clearly states it is seven years, but you still don't have a scapegoat. You surely have to believe in Armageddon, and the end of that, will also not be 'at an hour we do not expect'.

So, it seems there are quite a few scripture you are throwing out of your bible.

Curtis said:

Nowhere does this scripture say the angels are gathering together of his elec to heaven. It is the gathering together for Judgement as it says here.

Mat 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
Mat 25:32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
Mat 25:33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

None of Gods elect (sheep) at this time are raptured they are gathered together and are allowed to enter the Millennial kingdom of God. The goats are cast into the fire.

Mat 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

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Yes, the dynamic dual.

The eternal Father not seen demonstrating his powerful labor of love in dying mankind the Son of man Jesus' temporal seen.

Born again sons of God all die nor receiving the promise of a new incorruptible body as the wife of Christ . Named Christian by the Holy Father named after the husband and founder of the eternal city

1 John 3:1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: (neither male nor female Jew nor gentile) therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God,(neither male nor female Jew nor gentile) and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is

It does not yet appear what we shall be as the wife/bride. No procreation

Believers are given the understnding that their spirit will not re-enter dying flesh (reincarnation or transmigration) implying migration from one life form to another.

No such thing as angel a third element. The Greek word Angelos in English is messenger as in the beatiful feet of the apostles. Again, not angels (patron saints)

Its Christ Holy Spirit (Emanuel) in us not a legion of disembodied workers with a familiar spirit gods male and female . today some call patron saints

The reincarnation recipe below

Acts1411And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.;And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker.

Mat 25:31 "When the Son of Man (Jesus) comes in His glory (Father's) , and all the holy angels apostles with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.

The Son of man Jesus in his temporal flesh has come and is gone. One demonstration was all that was promised His body returned to the dust .
Some did know Christ that worked in the Son of man Jesus

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

Curtis said:

God made specific promises to Israel, including blessings, prosperity, and the promise of a specific land, the "Promised Land". These promises were part of the Abrahamic Covenant, which involved a land inheritance and a covenant relationship with God.

Click to expand...

HI Curtis thanks for the thoughtful reply, I do not agree, and I think it starts at the Abrahamic Covenant,

when I look at the Abrahamic Covenant,, you mention the land inheritance, I hear a lot of people say that has never been fulfilled, but scripture says it has been fulfilled to who it was promised to....

Joshua 21:43 Thus the LORD gave to Israel all the land that he swore to give to their fathers. And they took possession of it, and they settled there.
Kings 8-56
“Blessed be the LORD who has given rest to his people Israel, according to all that he promised. Not one word has failed of all his good promise, which he spoke by Moses his servant.

So why do you think it is for a ethnic Jew when Galatians spells it out so clearly.THe Bible defines for us who will inherit the promise, seems it was fulfilled in the OT and in the NT it is only those who believe in Christ.
Now we also have Paul reveling the truth about the AC
Promise to abraham see below

Galatians 3:​

26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave[g] nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

Galatians 3:​

7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham.

Galatians 3:​

14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles so that we might receive the promised Spirit[e] through faith.

Galatians 3​

16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.