Then clearly my assessment is correct in asking the question I asked (see below), because though you insinuate that Christ is necessary, it is also clear by your words, that His sacrifice was insufficient to save anyone, because the need for works is a requirement for said salvation, and not a by-product of said faith in Jesus which I believe to be true. You have made works a requirement of salvation, and not what they are which is evidence of it. I hope you now see the difference.
This is a non sequitur. Just because works are necessary doesn't negate Christ's sacrifice. Again, works cannot be a byproduct of faith. James said Faith without works is dead and asks can that fait save. It's a rhetorical question whose obvious answer is no. Dead faith can't save, only a living faith can save. In order for faith to be living it must contain works. Therefore, works cannot be a byproduct of that faith.
I guess if one were to attempt to label it, would be that you see good in sinners that must contribute to their salvation, while I see all as sinners, who can do nothing to save themselves because as Paul says:
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10 KJV
In this passage Paul is speaking specifically of the Law of Moses. If we continue to read on we find these words.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one,
and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in qordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, thaving slain the enmity uthereby:
The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Eph 2:7–16.
Here Paul is explaining how Christ has brought together both Jew and Gentile. He did so by breaking down the wall of partition. This is a reference to an actual wall in the temple that divided the Jew and the Gentile. He goes on to say that Christ has abolished in His flesh the Law of Commandments contained in ordinances. The Law of commandments contained in ordinances is the Law of Moses. So not being saved by works means no being saved by keeping the Law of Moses.
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9 And being made perfect,
he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; 10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
King James Version, Heb 5:8–10.
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the uGentile;
Holy Bible: King James Version, Ro 2:5–9.
Those doing good deeds are seeking eternal life.
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6
And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord
blameless.
The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Lk 1:5–6.
Luke records that Zacharias and Elizabet were blameless before the Lord.
This is why I previously posted about James and Paul:
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
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They are in agreement. Both teach that works are necessary. Paul makes clear in Romans 2 that those who are doing good deeds are seeking eternal life.
