Jonathan_Gale said:

Of course not, I just don't like the sounding of Christianese, you know. That's kind of putting God into a box. If you believe that the blood reaches to the highest mountains and flows to the lowest valleys, then it must be manifested in every facet of life. God is not God of the dead, but the living. His presence is not only in this mystic destination called heaven in another dimension, but in our every day supposedly secular life. You just need to have the eyes to see and ears to hear.

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Jonathan_Gale said:

You just keep repeating the same line without any proof text. Those saints were not raised “with” Jesus, quite the opposite, they were raised when Jesus yielded his last breath, and three days later on the FEAST of first fruits, Jesus was raised.

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Matthew 27:50-53​

King James Version​

StewardoftheMystery said:

I already gave plenty of proof text, all you have given is your opinion.

From post # 26….

Many people miss this resurrection of the “firstfruits” of Israel when Jesus was resurrected….

Matthew 27:50-53​

King James Version​

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”

Again, I believe the words of God, not man’s opinion.

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Lavenderfields said:

Jonathan, I don't know why you keep saying this because we already know that God is in our every day life's. That's secular and spiritual.

You know the saying " preaching to the choir."

We are guided to set our affections on the things from above.

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StewardoftheMystery said:

I already gave plenty of proof text, all you have given is your opinion.

From post # 26….

Many people miss this resurrection of the “firstfruits” of Israel when Jesus was resurrected….

Matthew 27:50-53​

King James Version​

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”

Again, I believe the words of God, not man’s opinion.

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Lavenderfields said:

The passage looks like the resurrection of the saints, occured just after Jesus crucifixion and until after His resurrection.
Though surely that must have been after Jesus resurrection.

Jesus resurrection being the most powerful event ever and the resurrection of the saints must have been the most powerful event the world has ever seen, apart from Jesus resurrection and creation.

Were they raised with terrestrial bodies to relive on the earth, or imperishable bodies and ascended.
Just can't imagine that but if they had spiritual flesh then possible .?

Just a thought I will recheck the posts.
Is that connected to Ephesians 4:10
Will check later.
That would therefore be resurrected saints. Not spirits

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Hebrews 12:22-23​

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King James Version​

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Acts 1:9-11​

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King James Version​

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StewardoftheMystery said:

The scriptures say it was after his ressurection that they were raised. Which makes sense because it is written Jesus is the firstborn from the dead, being the first of the firstfruits to be raised.

Notice the church of the firstborn is mentioned in Hebrews 12, along with those spirits of men made perfect.

Hebrews 12:22-23​

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King James Version​

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22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and “church of the firstborn,” which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,”

Also notice Paul mentions mount Sion there, as that is where we see the 144,000 firstfruits of Israel standing with the Lord in Rev. Chapter 14.

Also notice Paul mentions “a great cloud of witnesses” in Hebrews 12:1, and also notice how Jesus ascended to Heaven in this cloud.

Acts 1:9-11​

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King James Version​

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9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

That cloud represents the saints of the Lord ascending with Jesus.

This same cloud of saints is prophesied to come with Jesus at his second coming.

Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Mark 13:26
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Jude 1:14
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
1 Thessalonians 3:13
To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

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StewardoftheMystery said:

The scriptures say it was after His resurrection that they were raised. Which makes sense because it is written Jesus is the firstborn from the dead, being the first of the firstfruits to be raised.

Notice the church of the firstborn is mentioned in Hebrews 12, along with those spirits of men made perfect.

Hebrews 12:22-23 - King James Version​

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and “church of the firstborn,” which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,”

Also notice Paul mentions mount Sion there, as that is where we see the 144,000 firstfruits of Israel standing with the Lord in Rev. Chapter 14.
Also notice Paul mentions “a great cloud of witnesses” in Hebrews 12:1, and also notice how Jesus ascended to Heaven in this cloud.

Acts 1:9-11 - King James Version​

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven,
shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

That cloud represents the saints of the Lord ascending with Jesus.

This same cloud of saints is prophesied to come with Jesus at his second coming.

Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Mark 13:26
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Jude 1:14
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
1 Thessalonians 3:13
To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

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Lavenderfields said:

The passage looks like the resurrection of the saints, occured just after Jesus crucifixion and until after His resurrection.
Though surely that must have been after Jesus resurrection.

Jesus resurrection being the most powerful event ever and the resurrection of the saints must have been the most powerful event the world has ever seen, apart from Jesus resurrection and creation.

Were they raised with terrestrial bodies to relive on the earth, or imperishable bodies and ascended.
Just can't imagine that but if they had spiritual flesh then possible .?

Just a thought I will recheck the posts.
Is that connected to Ephesians 4:10
Will check later.
That would therefore be resurrected saints. Not spirits

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complete said:

Hello @StewardoftheMystery,

You reference Jude 1:14, in relation to the word 'saints', which in that instance, does not refer to those who have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, but to angels.

Each use of the word, 'cloud,' must be considered in it's context, for it is not correct to say that the word, 'cloud,' represents 'the saints of the Lord' ascending with Jesus. Or that the word, 'saint,' always refers to those who have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ : but is used of Angels too; again the context will reveal it.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

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StewardoftheMystery said:

I believe the Lord is coming with both his saints and his angels as written. I agree the word saint can mean angel, as they are shown as the same word in several places, concerning the “holy ones” of the Lord.

Mat 25:31 - When the Son of man-shall come in his glory, and all the holy G40 angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Notice same word used for saints…

Mat 27:52 - And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints G40 which slept arose,

Jde 1:14 - And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, G40

I would also remind you that Jesus said in the resurrection the saints are equal to the angels.

Luke 20:36
Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

So you could call those resurrected saints angels.

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Lavenderfields said:

Hello @complete @Butch5 @StewardoftheMystery @GodB4Us @Curtis @Br. Bear

There are two threads in relation to the after life.

Please could we continue to discuss them.

It must have been about 2009 and 2010 and I was on a forum from the USA, and they discussed and debated this subject to smithereens.
There was a lot of emotion as well and lots of fierce anger. I know we need to discuss this with respect and aim to be polite and calm.
Then around that time I studied this and didn't form my opinions overnight. It was years.

I would like to discuss the resurrections.
For the dead will be raised.

Acts 24:15 described to be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

Daniel 12:2 Many that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5: 25, 28-29 the resurrection of life and the resurrection of damnation.

In connecting this with 1 Peter 1: 23-25 1 Corinthians 15:38-58

That they surely show that the born again have the imperishable seed , through the living and abiding Word of God.
Consequently this corruptible must put on incorruption,
and this mortal must put on immortality v53

Must only be applicable to the born again children of God.
Thats because " death is swallowed up in victory ." v54
Without the sting of death and without the grave obtaining victory. v55

If 1 Corinthians 15: 53 applied to all having an imperishable body as some believe, then it would make no sense to not have the sting of death, when there is a second death. Therefore they must be raised to have a terrestrial body that is perishable.

I've seen some very disturbing doctrine that all are purposely raised with an imperishable body and some have eternal life and others exist within eternal death.

Surely that is from pagan roots, as there appears to be several sources supporting this, from church history.

In fact some of the things that are considered new , were existing right from the beginning and tradition came in inbetween.

The lake of fire is often believed to be literal, and others believe it to be metaphoric. Some say they suffer but not in a literal fire and others say they may even have a reasonable existance but have regrets, and continually hunger and thirst that will never reach fulfilment.
I like so much to think everyone will be saved but what does the bible say?

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complete said:

Hello @StewardoftheMystery,

With respect, the resurrected saints never can be angels, for they are an entirely different work of creation to man. Our Lord does not use His words indiscriminately, and so neither should we. It can only cause confusion.

See, Matthew 22:30, 'For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.' In relation to marriage they are 'as the angels', but not in every respect.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

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StewardoftheMystery said:

Jesus said the ressurection saints could not die any more and would be equal to the angels being the children (sons ) of God.

Luke 20:36
Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

The angels are called the sons of God.

1 John 3:1
Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

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complete said:

' And Jesus answering said unto them,
The children of this world ( or age ) marry, and are given in marriage:
But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world,
and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels;
and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.'
(Luk 20:34-36)

Hello @StewardoftheMystery,

No more births, marriages or deaths! ( 1 Corinthians 15:52 & Revelation 21:4 ) - Children of the resurrection!

Praise God!
In Christ Jesus
Chris

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Butch5 said:

Hi Lavenderfields,

Sorry I'm late to the party. One point I would like to point out is that of the idea of immortal bodies. I don't believe we will be inherently immortal. The Bible indicates that the same body that goes into the grave will be raised. We see this with Jesus. There are several reasons I believe this. One is that Paul attributes immortality to the Father alone. Thus, if we were immortal we would have a divine quality. Secondly, we would not have to rely on God for life. Another reason is because Jesus says in Revelation that He will give to the one who overcomes the right to eat from the Tree of Life. If we were inherently immortal what need would there be to have to eat from the Tree of Life? Also, John tells us that when Christians are raised they will be like Jesus. When Jesus was raised and seated at the Father's right hand, Paul said that the Father alone has immortality. So, the statement excluded the resurrected Christ. Jesus is not inherently immortal. If we're going to be like Him we won't be either.


Regarding the Lake of Fire. The book of Revelation is full of symbolism. I believe the Lake of Fire is a real place, however, the term "Lake of Fire" symbolizes something else. I believe that something else is Gehenna. Jesus said that the wicked would be cast into Gehenna. John said they'd be cast into the Lake of Fire. Either there is a contradiction or these two places are one and the same. Also, consider this, Gehenna is a valley outside of Jerusalem. Standing on the top of the mountain and looking out over a valley full of dead, burning bodies how would it appear? Would it not look like a lake of fire?

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Lavenderfields said:

Do you believe that entails an imperishable body or another perishable body?

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Lavenderfields said:

Isn't being immortal having no beginning and no end. That's God alone.
However there is the gift of eternal life, through Jesus Christ.
I'm a bit puzzled though on your view. Do you believe that entails an imperishable body or another perishable body?

That is more than a terrible vision in the way God communicates regarding the second death but is nevertheless in the bible.
Many believe that to be perpetual and the process of death never ending. Others believe that to be the eternal result.
I've prayed enough , felt in my inner self enough, read the old testament and new testament enough to know that it is a finality.
All the scriptures need to be looked at together in all 66 books.
That the finality of a person is more than horrendous.
God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked.
God is our Creator and being with Him in creation , we know, feel and sense His presence and divinity.
God is very benevolent in nature and that is what His wrath is about.
Eg. The Pharisees pretending to be righteous but exploited the widows and the attitude to the downtrodden.
Also excluding God and abusing His wonderous plans in creation.

Why would God allow death to continue perpetually, where people are existing in the process of death and there's no finality or end to it. That would ruin His perfect plans.

As it is we would be so disturbed by that now because of compassion.
Yet some view that as worldly. That can't be right if we truely love and know God.
Why in the future would that quality be lost and look like lacking that and something like haughtyness.
For want of the right word.
There's mention of them being tormented in the presence of the holy angels in people being in the eternal fire but the angels are not omnipresent. Revelation 14:10
And the Lamb- Jesus.
Total ruin of creation.
It's though:
Death swallowed up in victory.
I know what that means.

Sorry not giving this time to put more scriptures in and more details.

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Butch5 said:

That's still the plan. Man is to rule over creation. In the beginning we see Adam has access to the tree of life and can live forever. In Revelation we see the same thing, man once again having access to the tree of life and man ruling over the creation. There has been so much extra baggage added to Christianity over the centuries that the church is off base. That's one reason we have so much confusion. As the Gospel went out to the nations, pagan nations, the natural effect is that people view the Scriptures through their own worldview. This is how Scripture gets changed. People have certain beliefs through which they interpret Scripture. Often these beliefs are wrong and thus they come to wrong conclusions. It's a normal process but we have to try to set aside those beliefs and/or verify through Scripture that the are correct.

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Butch5 said:

I believe the body we have now is the same that will be resurrected.

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Corinthians 15:35-44​

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King James Version​

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