Sue D. said:

KingJ. -- You appear to be the one who is not properly defining and representing God.

That would saying that the cross of Christ is ALMOST sufficient but not quite.

And God IS completely in control when He Does allow certain things to happen.

"We" are Not puppets -- God Does allow us 'free will'. And He can/ Does change things as He sees fit.

God Does have His master plan for this entire world. There Is a constant battle going on between God and satan. God's Will Does supercede Anything that satan is trying to thwart,

And -- like in the world situation right Now -- it's all crazier and isn't going to get any better. Scripture Tells us that all this Will happen. It's All leading up to the rapture of His Church and God giving His people the Jewish segment of the world Another chance to accept Him as their Promised Messiah. And Then after those 7 years, will be His 1,000 yrs of reigning here on earth and Then the Final war and Then judgement and Finally the New Jerusalem and the Lake of fire and brimstone.

Adam and Eve brought sin into this world and God already had a plan in place to remedy That. Their free will with consequences. We've All had the same thing ever since.

And God has a plan for every person's life

Everything in our lives work together for our Good. We are to become more Christ-like.

God would that All would come to Himself But knows that lots of us Won't.

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I agree with most of your post but don't think you properly understand what is meant when someone refers to God as omnipotent and omniscient.

You say you do and then speak of free will. I have asked you nicely many times to explain to me how you connect the dots between true omnipotence and omniscience to true free will.

Pretend I am an unsaved person, hearing ''''God knows all and is all powerful'''....you then say '''God also allows true free will'''. Connect the dots in a logical manner for me please. Or make an argument for God's position that does not incriminate Him.

For One thing -- who so ever will may come. John 3:16 "For God so loved the world (you and me) that He gave His only begotten Son, that who so ever believeth in Him will Not perish but have everlasting life."

1 John 1:9 " If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Romans 10:9-10 "Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus if Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved...... vs 13 "For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

that's not an 'I hope' it will happen that way. It's a 'will be' thing.

Omnipotence = God is All powerful
Omniscience = God has all knowledge.

God draws to Himself the people who He chooses to. We Can resist for a while -- I Did -- but God Also knows When we Will come to Him.

We are Also told to teach the Gospel of salvation to All who will Listen. We don't have the knowledge To know who will accept and who won't.

KingJ -- you seem to think that 'we' have to understand every aspect of God's character in order for it to be true. Well 'we' never will understand all of it. But we Do need to accept it. Well -- there Are lots of people who Don't accept it.

Kind of like gravity. A person doesn't have to Understand How it works in order for it To work -- but we All know it Does work.

So -- has 'this' been sufficient for YOU?

Sue D. said:

For One thing -- who so ever will may come. John 3:16 "For God so loved the world (you and me) that He gave His only begotten Son, that who so ever believeth in Him will Not perish but have everlasting life."

1 John 1:9 " If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Romans 10:9-10 "Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus if Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved...... vs 13 "For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

that's not an 'I hope' it will happen that way. It's a 'will be' thing.

Omnipotence = God is All powerful
Omniscience = God has all knowledge.

God draws to Himself the people who He chooses to. We Can resist for a while -- I Did -- but God Also knows When we Will come to Him.

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You quote John 3:16 which says ''whomsoever will'' and then state ''God draws to Himself the people who He chooses to''. That is 100% contradiction. Did God ''lie'' in John 3:16?

Calvinism teaches that John 3:16 is to be read as '''God died for those He pre-selected''. Not the ''whomsoever will''.

You are speaking as though you are Arminian and Calvinist at the same time.

Sue D. said:

]We are Also told to teach the Gospel of salvation to All who will Listen. We don't have the knowledge To know who will accept and who won't.

KingJ -- you seem to think that 'we' have to understand every aspect of God's character in order for it to be true. Well 'we' never will understand all of it. But we Do need to accept it. Well -- there Are lots of people who Don't accept it.

Kind of like gravity. A person doesn't have to Understand How it works in order for it To work -- but we All know it Does work.

So -- has 'this' been sufficient for YOU?

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We cannot fully grasp God, correct. But that is a cop out on this topic. A Christian can and must properly grasp that God is good, before they open their mouth to the unsaved and make insinuations of Him that can only lead to one believing He is ….evil. In this case you are implying He is partial. You have not given a satisfactory answer. No. 1 John 1:5 The message we have heard from the beginning is that God is light with no darkness in Him at all.

Partiality is wicked. Utter darkness. God is 0% partial.

KingJ said:

All the evidence points to Him being surprised by us

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please provide all the "evidence" you speak of.

thanks

KingJ -- and Why do bring Calvinism / Arminianism into the conversation. They were simply two very human men who had strong views of Scripture. You'd think They were inspired.

I really Don't Care what Mr. Calvin taught.

And You somehow believe that You are grasping God's Word the Correct Way. Nope.

How about that God is HOLY.

Sue D. said:

And You somehow believe that You are grasping God's Word the Correct Way. Nope.

How about that God is HOLY.

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What comes to your mind when you think of ''holy''?

Isa 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

Note how they say ''whole earth full of His glory''. God is holy because of His excellence, beauty, righteousness, purity. Because of who He is.

Nobody would call Him holy if He were partial and wicked. God is a righteous God. Right.....eous in ''ALL'' His ways.

Psalm 145:17 The Lord is righteous in all His ways and faithful in all He does.

Dave M said:

please provide all the "evidence" you speak of. thanks

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Literally everything Dave.

God is not limited by the realm of physics. God can create you and I to be with Him ''right'' now. As He did with the angels. But.....He doesn't.

He ''''goes through the motions with us'''', why?

Every single thing on this earth. Our bodies in their entirety. The CROSS. All the death, pain and suffering He allows to take place. ALL this for what?

It ALL points to God dealing with mankind respectfully. He did not have to do ANY of it!!!!!!!!! But He has!!!!

So when someone comes with the view that ''''there is no true free will as God is omnipotent and omniscient''', they are in essence mocking the cross. The cross is evidence that God is dealing with us on a very respectful, righteous, honest, truthful, sincere, impartial basis.

Everything around us points to true free will. To God limiting His omnipotence and omniscience to uphold what is good and righteous.

EVERYTHING!!!!

Sue D. said:

I really Don't Care what Mr. Calvin taught.

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A lot of racism taught at churches over the ages were inspired by lines from him.

KingJ said:

What comes to your mind when you think of ''holy''?

Isa 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

Note how they say ''whole earth full of His glory''. God is holy because of His excellence, beauty, righteousness, purity. Because of who He is.

Nobody would call Him holy if He were partial and wicked. God is a righteous God. Right.....eous in ''ALL'' His ways.

Psalm 145:17 The Lord is righteous in all His ways and faithful in all He does.

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I actually looked it up -- 'the term holiness is applied to God in two senses. First - God is separate, set above all which is created. And second -- things are regarded holy because of their connection with God -- holy ground.

God Almighty -- God the Creator of all -- in the Old Testament the tabernacle -- the innermost part was the Holy of Holies. I believe it was called.

The burning bush in which God appeared to Moses.

God's righteous judgement. His judgements are always right. And there are - at times - Negative consequences to our actions. We don't like or want the negatives in our lives.

God's holiness isn't really talked about much in churches probably lots of churches don't teach Bible. All they teach is that God is Good all the time. Because that's what people like to hear. They don't want to hear that homosexuality is putrid in God's eyes. That same sexes are NOT to be 'together'. People don't want to hear that divorce is wrong and that marriage is serious commitment and to be until the death of a spouse separates them.

God is to be reverenced. We are to be quiet in His presence. God allowed His people to wander for 40 years. He hardened Pharoah's heart time after time even with all the plagues.

No one wants to reminded that God Destroyed Sodom and Gohmorrah because of their wickedness. Their homosexuality.

And people don't want to think of people ending up in hell of all places. As in Why would a 'good / loving' God allow Anyone to end up there.

Do we give God the honor and respect due to Him. Probably in church -- but some churches are not 'holy ground' either.

And a good , loving God wouldn't allow anything bad to happen to anyone at any time. And we All know that That isn't the case.

It's hard to describe or understand God's holiness. People choose to either ignore Him or put Him on our level. But God is Very much alive and definitely NOT on our level.

KingJ said:

A lot of racism taught at churches over the ages were inspired by lines from him.

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Ya know something -- in all the churches I've ever been in -- Calvinism / Armenianism are never brought up. Bible / God's Word Is taught.

Your comment speaks volumes. Maybe that's why you made the comments that you did regarding the Jews. Wouldn't That be considered as 'racism'?!

KingJ said:

Literally everything Dave.

God is not limited by the realm of physics. God can create you and I to be with Him ''right'' now. As He did with the angels. But.....He doesn't.

He ''''goes through the motions with us'''', why?

Every single thing on this earth. Our bodies in their entirety. The CROSS. All the death, pain and suffering He allows to take place. ALL this for what?

It ALL points to God dealing with mankind respectfully. He did not have to do ANY of it!!!!!!!!! But He has!!!!

So when someone comes with the view that ''''there is no true free will as God is omnipotent and omniscient''', they are in essence mocking the cross. The cross is evidence that God is dealing with us on a very respectful, righteous, honest, truthful, sincere, impartial basis.

Everything around us points to true free will. To God limiting His omnipotence and omniscience to uphold what is good and righteous.

EVERYTHING!!!!

Click to expand...

God created angels entirely different from human beings. Scripture says that we were created a little lower than they were. We don't become angels when we die and angels don't become Us.

You Do have a 'thing' regarding God's absolute power and knowledge and with our ability to make decisions. Only God knows who will and who Won't accept His plan for our salvation. And God Also knew that it would take me longer to come to Himself. He / the Holy Spirit / would be working with me for quite a while before I'd come to Him.

IF God was really limiting Himself -- the power and knowledge -- then He would Not have been able to raise Jesus Christ from the dead. And He wouldn't have known from the very beginnn that Adam and Eve Would touch / eat that fruit and we would , therefore Need a Savior. And His / Holy Spirits' Keeping power / our souls safety with Him until we are with Jesus Christ.

Sue D. said:

Your comment speaks volumes. Maybe that's why you made the comments that you did regarding the Jews. Wouldn't That be considered as 'racism'?!

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Racism? What comment?

KingJ -- look back at # 48

@KingJ -- And your comments on the other thread "David's Sin " post # 18.

combine those two comments and you almost sound racist.

Sue D. said:

@KingJ -- And your comments on the other thread "David's Sin " post # 18.

combine those two comments and you almost sound racist.

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Post # 18 ''A Christian is a new creation. Nothing like a Jew. It is the difference between a helper in the house and a bride. We are the bride of Christ Eph 5:22-33.''
Post # 48 ''A lot of racism taught at churches over the ages were inspired by lines from him. ''

These two comments?

Christians are different to everyone. Christians ''choose'' to serve God. Jews, had no choice. You were born a Jew. Serving God, living by the law, was forced on them. It is not a racist statement.
The second comment, I am saying that the guy you sound like in your posts made many lines of God's partiality that racists used. In America for example, just google your history on black slavery. Many slavers were church goers.

Sue D. said:

God created angels entirely different from human beings. Scripture says that we were created a little lower than they were. We don't become angels when we die and angels don't become Us.

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Never said they did.

Sue D. said:

You Do have a 'thing' regarding God's absolute power and knowledge and with our ability to make decisions. Only God knows who will and who Won't accept His plan for our salvation. And God Also knew that it would take me longer to come to Himself. He / the Holy Spirit / would be working with me for quite a while before I'd come to Him.

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Was your 'coming to Him' inevitable? He has cherry picked you. You are lucky. Those around you are not?

Sue D. said:

IF God was really limiting Himself -- the power and knowledge -- then He would Not have been able to raise Jesus Christ from the dead. And He wouldn't have known from the very beginnn that Adam and Eve Would touch / eat that fruit and we would , therefore Need a Savior. And His / Holy Spirits' Keeping power / our souls safety with Him until we are with Jesus Christ.

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God only limits His omniscience when it is necessary to uphold being good. He is righteous in all His ways. Your example is not something He would need to limit Himself on. Understand that ''He limits''. He is not ''limited''.

KingJ. --- you seem to be an authority on when God decides to limit or Not His omniscience / omnipotence. Almost sounds like You have 'all knowledge' yourself.

As for Me -- this discussion has run it's course.

Have a great Mother's Day with your family tomorrow.

So if God is sovereign why do we pray to him?

I believe God is sovereign. But that doesn't mean we don't have free will.

1Tim 2:3; This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Tim 2:4; who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

If it's God's will for "all" men to be saved. Why aren't ALL men saved?

B-A-C said:

I believe God is sovereign. But that doesn't mean we don't have free will.

1Tim 2:3; This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Tim 2:4; who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

If it's God's will for "all" men to be saved. Why aren't ALL men saved?,

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I think the issue is with mans will, some men wish they're will to be Gods will and are saved or another way to say it is , they do Gods will instead of they're own will,.... but many more men are content at doing only they're own will and are not saved. In other words they ignore Gods will

Jesus is a prime example of the point I am trying to make. His own will was to pass on the work that was set before him, yet he was willing to the will of the father who set the work before him. So even tough it was not Jesus will he chose to the will of his father over his own will. so it seems we have free will,

Matthew 26
39. Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”



not sure we can ever understand how Gods sovereignty and human responsibility work together.

I know one scripture that seems to suggest to me this very thing is
Matthew 18:3
And said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.


So in conclusion to free will, I do not think free will has any impact on Gods sovereignty, or Gods over all plan.
Proverbs 19:21
Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand.