No

You can do want you want to do. But when you stand, before GOD! what it is, is what it is. For there will no explanations, absolutely No "Dialogue" what so ever. Now what do you think? And He is A "Holy GOD" not a man, and not your husband Think,Think. And The BOOKS was Open and Another BOOK was open. Everything you have done and said and thought is recorded in those Books. Now, Think think, and let no one deceive you. For there are many deceivers in this world. 'and Misery loves company" and "two wrongs does not set things right". Think, Think.

Hello @K9Buckeye,

I agree with @PloughBoy and @Rebal, there is no Scriptural case that can be made. 2 Samuel 13 records an incestuous rape having taking place and it's consequences for the perpetrator, but nothing is said concerning the outcome for the woman.

I also don't know of a Biblical argument wherein abortion is ever acceptable. But, I am not a Bible scholar, hence my question.

Nowhere in the Bible addresses abortion directly. You could consider Exodus 21:22-25

When people who are fighting injure a pregnant woman so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no further harm follows, the one responsible shall be fined what the woman’s husband demands, paying as much as the judges determine. If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Here the value of the foetus and the woman are judged differently, one as compensation for property and the other as a human life.

From Genesis, human life starts with breath.

Hekuran said:

From Genesis, human life starts with breath.

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I think it's saying that the FIRST human life started with a breath. Am I mistaken?

K9Buckeye said:

I think it's saying that the FIRST human life started with a breath. Am I mistaken?

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That's true. In the Bible, though, breath is always the sign of life.

Hekuran said:

That's true. In the Bible, though, breath is always the sign of life.

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: Breath

www.biblegateway.com

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Thank you.

I believe life starts at conception. That obviously wasn't possible with Adam and Eve so God had to "breathe" life into them. I suspect some pro-abortionists might try to claim that a baby's life doesn't begin until they are out of the womb and breathing on their own.

And I've just found a passage that complicates (maybe contradicts) what I just said. Ecclesiastes 11.5

Just as you do not know how the breath comes to the bones in the mother’s womb, so you do not know the work of God, who makes everything.

Hekuran said:

And I've just found a passage that complicates (maybe contradicts) what I just said. Ecclesiastes 11.5

Just as you do not know how the breath comes to the bones in the mother’s womb, so you do not know the work of God, who makes everything.

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Thanks. That is a great verse!

You have to take all human, secular and worldly thought out of it.

As horrible as it may be, in God's eyes, all life is precious, no matter how He has chosen or allowed that life to exist...we have no right to end that existence!

Born Again 2004 said:

You have to take all human, secular and worldly thought out of it.

As horrible as it may be, in God's eyes, all life is precious, no matter how He has chosen or allowed that life to exist...we have no right to end that existence!

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So then based on this perspective out of the 1000s of living ***** out of which only one penetrates the egg the others are murdered by God's design? Is every man that has ever swatted a mosquito or killed bacteria with mouthwash also a murderer? Or does only some life count in God's eyes and He gives us the power to decide which OTHER life lives and dies? Are cow killers also murderers or did God predetermine that this one dies and that one lives? He certainly knows about this but foreknowing does not equal causation. Certainly He breathed life into the first couple but after that it is all pro-creation that brings about the physical life which is disposable according to man's plans, politics, and propensities. When we kill a foreign or domestic terrorist we see it as for the greater good but e have also killed all their potential offspring who may have been of no threat. Are we all murderers?

As much as I am pro-life we must realize that good women and even godly women have on occasion been seeking this process for many centuries...some of them from need, or because of abuse, and some because of convenience, but none the less, for those who will or must seek this process it is better that this help would be available in a clean medically directed place. Making it illegal again will NEVER stop it. Men are pigs and if they had their way women would be slaves or worse and we all would have 10 or more children....as caring and intelligent people we must think on these things. The Bible says nothing one way or the other on this matter and if God felt it was of major importance He would have told us (and He does not)....now what I see in the American politic is mostly MEN and most of them men who are greedy and power hungry and apart from their mouth do NOT follow Jesus and do as Jesus would do in almost all areas of life..

Brother Paul said:

So then based on this perspective out of the 1000s of living ***** out of which only one penetrates the egg the others are murdered by God's design? Is every man that has ever swatted a mosquito or killed bacteria with mouthwash also a murderer? Or does only some life count in God's eyes and He gives us the power to decide which OTHER life lives and dies? Are cow killers also murderers or did God predetermine that this one dies and that one lives? He certainly knows about this but foreknowing does not equal causation. Certainly He breathed life into the first couple but after that it is all pro-creation that brings about the physical life which is disposable according to man's plans, politics, and propensities. When we kill a foreign or domestic terrorist we see it as for the greater good but e have also killed all their potential offspring who may have been of no threat. Are we all murderers?

As much as I am pro-life we must realize that good women and even godly women have on occasion been seeking this process for many centuries...some of them from need, or because of abuse, and some because of convenience, but none the less, for those who will or must seek this process it is better that this help would be available in a clean medically directed place. Making it illegal again will NEVER stop it. Men are pigs and if they had their way women would be slaves or worse and we all would have 10 or more children....as caring and intelligent people we must think on these things. The Bible says nothing one way or the other on this matter and if God felt it was of major importance He would have told us (and He does not)....now what I see in the American politic is mostly MEN and most of them men who are greedy and power hungry and apart from their mouth do NOT follow Jesus and do as Jesus would do in almost all areas of life..

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Why did you block out that word. It is just a word...not evil or dirty....are you sick?

K9Buckeye said:

Thanks in advance.

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It depends. By which moral standard? By strictly Biblical standards, occurring to the society abroad at the time and context of the composition of Scripture, abortion has no moral valence beyond “destruction of property” whatsoever (more on this below). By modern Western standards, there are ethical complications when the fetus is a viable baby. This standard, however, is unjust in so far as viability depends heavily upon the standard of medical care in the pregnant woman’s community. A miscarriage in rural El Salvador might easily be an (otherwise uncomplicated) premature delivery in Santa Barbara. This is why I wish so fervently that the vast energies and resources applied by good Christians to America’s “pro” life movement would instead devote them to providing better social services to needy communities around the world.

To the extent “anti-abortionism” is a major cause among American evangelicals, it is a much more modern concept with no basis in Scripture. In the few cases when premature termination of a pregnancy is mentioned in the Bible, it is neither called a murder nor is it punished as if it were. Indeed, in the Ordeal of the Bitter Waters, Israelite temple priests are commanded BY GOD to subject a wife suspected of pregnancy by infidelity to a procedure intended to abort an illegitimate pregnancy.

The Bible makes no mention, ever, that a human life “begins” at “conception” (itself a vernacular word with no clinical meaning). Moreover, in every verse describing the beginning of a human life, the moment specified is BIRTH, when the newborn draws its first breath of LIFE. Indeed, this is precisely the language used in Genesis to describe God’s vivification of Adam. God formed the first man fully out of clay (which is interesting in that he alone among the creatures required ingredients for assembly) but he was not alive until God blew the breath of life into his nostrils. My understanding is this interpretation is still common among Jewish communities. Life begins with the first breath.

In any case, the concept of the immorality of abortion is not Biblical. The Catholic Church adopted it as doctrine in the 1300s. And American evangelicals who argue against ANY abortion whatsoever suffer the same problem of like-minded Catholics. If “Morality” is absolute, objective, unchanging, and explicitly delineated in Scripture, then abortion neither is, nor can it be interpreted as, immoral. On the other hand, if abortion is immoral, then “Morality” is a spoken and unspoken code of behavior we all agree to (albeit inconsistently and imperfectly) and strive to abide (just as inconsistently and imperfectly) drawing whatever information and inspiration from God we can glean from Scripture, dogma, and examples of piety throughout history and in our community.

Personally, I hold that preventing a woman’s access to any abortion before the fetus is a viable baby is without question LESS moral than granting that access. I have a long list of reasons for this opinion and am happy to discuss them, but I am aware mine is a minority and unpopular perspective here and don’t want to deliberately spark brush fires needlessly. I merely wanted to lay out that the argument can be made by someone while still considering themselves a true Christian.

@Kirby D. P. I'm interested in hearing more.

My own view is firmly pro-life. I also see legislation as a very poor way to prevent abortion.

Dealing with poverty, improved education, access to support for parents, challenging the behaviour of men, and more is far more effective. I'm sure you know that already.

Best,

Hekuran

Hekuran said:

@Kirby D. P. I'm interested in hearing more.

My own view is firmly pro-life. I also see legislation as a very poor way to prevent abortion.

Dealing with poverty, improved education, access to support for parents, challenging the behaviour of men, and more is far more effective. I'm sure you know that already.

Best,

Hekuran

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i do. And wholeheartedly agree, Hekuran.

Brother Paul said:

So then based on this perspective out of the 1000s of living ***** out of which only one penetrates the egg the others are murdered by God's design? Is every man that has ever swatted a mosquito or killed bacteria with mouthwash also a murderer? Or does only some life count in God's eyes and He gives us the power to decide which OTHER life lives and dies? Are cow killers also murderers or did God predetermine that this one dies and that one lives? He certainly knows about this but foreknowing does not equal causation. Certainly He breathed life into the first couple but after that it is all pro-creation that brings about the physical life which is disposable according to man's plans, politics, and propensities. When we kill a foreign or domestic terrorist we see it as for the greater good but e have also killed all their potential offspring who may have been of no threat. Are we all murderers?

As much as I am pro-life we must realize that good women and even godly women have on occasion been seeking this process for many centuries...some of them from need, or because of abuse, and some because of convenience, but none the less, for those who will or must seek this process it is better that this help would be available in a clean medically directed place. Making it illegal again will NEVER stop it. Men are pigs and if they had their way women would be slaves or worse and we all would have 10 or more children....as caring and intelligent people we must think on these things. The Bible says nothing one way or the other on this matter and if God felt it was of major importance He would have told us (and He does not)....now what I see in the American politic is mostly MEN and most of them men who are greedy and power hungry and apart from their mouth do NOT follow Jesus and do as Jesus would do in almost all areas of life..

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Humans are in God's image mosquitos and bacteria are not .. It is not the moderators who are sick but those who do not respect the image of God.

God tells us that all manner of sin will/can be for given but Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit never will!

HE also tells us that everything is permissible but everything is not profitable

Your relationship with Man is profane; your relationship with God is spiritual, is it profitable?

Kirby D. P. said:

Life begins with the first breath.

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Kirby D. P. said:

Indeed, in the Ordeal of the Bitter Waters, Israelite temple priests are commanded BY GOD to subject a wife suspected of pregnancy by infidelity to a procedure intended to abort an illegitimate pregnancy.

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I suspect that law was given out of the hardness of man's hearts, like many others were in my opinion. a certain rabbi taught my friend that the method by which that misscarriage occurred was a miracle if it did, as they simply wrote the name of God on a piece of parchment and shredded it and dumped it in some water and the woman drank it.

as far as life goes, there is plenty of evidence that people can be spiritually and physically traumatized even before birth. in my case, i sinned in the womb and became affected by a generational curse of powerlessness. witchcraft on my mom's side of the family was of course also responsible, but i still had to confess those sins after discovering them buried in my own memories. this information came to me 8 years after salvation so i don't think its a very high priority for God to deal with. however, God reserves harsh judgement for those who cause children to sin, which implies that.. they do indeed.. go somewhere unfavorable after judgement. if they were just forgiven since "they are children they don't know what they are doing" then why would the abuser not get off scott free?

yet for thousands of years mankind have never held children morally accountable for their sins until after puberty. this was traditionally 13 in Jewish culture but now that women can become of age as early as 5, we need to take seriously these matters earlier in life than in prior generations.

so anyhow, i'm not going to judge a woman who aborts her rape baby, but she will incur the cost of the externalities of that decision.

but so will every citizen of a country who goes to war in another land for no good reason, and those externalities may be far higher than they want to think about as well.

then again the folks who deceived them with false flags.. I would not want to be in their shoes on judgment day either.

making abortion illegal is a good example of "pull the beam out of your own eye before you pull a speck out of your brothers"

not long ago i found a study that tracked women who had an abortion and found 98% of them did not regret it after 5 years. certain Christian groups said.. sure, 5 years, that's not actually that long try 50 years we have folks coming to terms with their decision, heart broken and traumatized by their past actions.