B-A-C
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Ok, I agree, some are. Some people stay saved. No argument with that.
But some do not "stay saved". They believe for a while... or they quit bearing fruit.
Can Salvation Be lost?
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Ok, I agree, some are. Some people stay saved. No argument with that.
But some do not "stay saved". They believe for a while... or they quit bearing fruit.
JerryfromMass
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All that you've cited clearly points to those that do not truly have faith, trust, and rest in the LORD. They were not truly saved if they forsook the LORD.
Butch5
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There is nothing that says people are once saved always saved. You say you accept Jesus' words and yet ignore his statement about those who fall away.
JerryfromMass
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Yes, once saved always saved are the few that find the strait gate and enter into it.
B-A-C
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Forsaking - betrayal requires a relationship.
If I was never engaged to a woman, or married to her, I can't forsake her. There was nothing to forsake or betray.
But if I was married to her, and then committed adultery with another woman, or decided to leaver her... then I could forsake her.
If you never knew God, you can't forsake Him.
JerryfromMass
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Those who fall away were never truly saved, but those who remain (the goid soil) are once saved always saved.
Butch5
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Can you read minds? How do you know they were never really saved? That's the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. A Christian can't lose his salvation. Some Christians turned away. Well, they weren't real Christians.
JerryfromMass
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Yes, you can know who the Lord is, you can hear his words, many followed Him from town to town to hear Him speak and watch Him work, the words of the Lord can cause you to go through an emotional experience, you might even say to yourself "I believe", yet even the devil and his demons believe. Having a relationship with the Lord requires faith, trust, and rest in the Lord and in all that HE teaches and commands, for forgiveness and for salvation, and this sort of relationship means so much more than simply knowing and believing. Those that are truly saved, who truly put their faith trust and rest in the Lord, and follow HIM and obey HIM and stay with HIM are once saved always saved.
Butch5
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You're imposing your beliefs on others. You have no way to know what others believe. You don't know who is truly saved. You're simply defining who is and isn't a Christian based on your interpretation of what a Christian is. Sorry, but that doesn't fly.
B-A-C
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1Kin 3:3; Now Solomon loved the LORD, walking in the statutes of his father David, except he sacrificed and burned incense on the high places.
1Kin 3:4; The king went to Gibeon to sacrifice there, for that was the great high place; Solomon offered a thousand burnt offerings on that altar.
1Kin 3:5; In Gibeon the LORD appeared to Solomon in a dream at night; and God said, "Ask what you wish me to give you."
Did Solomon know God?
1Kin 11:4; For when Solomon was old, his wives turned his heart away after other gods; and his heart was not wholly devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been.
1Kin 11:5; For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians and after Milcom the detestable idol of the Ammonites.
1Kin 11:6; Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the LORD, and did not follow the LORD fully, as David his father had done.
1Kin 11:7; Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the detestable idol of Moab, on the mountain which is east of Jerusalem, and for Molech the detestable idol of the sons of Ammon.
1Tim 4:1; But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
1Kin 3:4; The king went to Gibeon to sacrifice there, for that was the great high place; Solomon offered a thousand burnt offerings on that altar.
1Kin 3:5; In Gibeon the LORD appeared to Solomon in a dream at night; and God said, "Ask what you wish me to give you."
Did Solomon know God?
1Kin 11:4; For when Solomon was old, his wives turned his heart away after other gods; and his heart was not wholly devoted to the LORD his God, as the heart of David his father had been.
1Kin 11:5; For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians and after Milcom the detestable idol of the Ammonites.
1Kin 11:6; Solomon did what was evil in the sight of the LORD, and did not follow the LORD fully, as David his father had done.
1Kin 11:7; Then Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the detestable idol of Moab, on the mountain which is east of Jerusalem, and for Molech the detestable idol of the sons of Ammon.
1Tim 4:1; But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
A widow should be enrolled if she is at least sixty years old, the wife of one man, 10and well known for good deeds such as bringing up children, entertaining strangers, washing the feet of the saints, imparting relief to the afflicted, and devoting herself to every good work.
11But refuse to enroll younger widows. For when their passions draw them away from Christ, they will want to marry, 12and thus will incur judgment because they are setting aside their first faith. 13At the same time they will also learn to be idle, going from house to house and being not only idle, but also gossips and busybodies, discussing things they should not mention.
14So I advise the younger widows to marry, have children, and manage their households, denying the adversary occasion for slander. 15For some have already turned aside to follow Satan.
11But refuse to enroll younger widows. For when their passions draw them away from Christ, they will want to marry, 12and thus will incur judgment because they are setting aside their first faith. 13At the same time they will also learn to be idle, going from house to house and being not only idle, but also gossips and busybodies, discussing things they should not mention.
14So I advise the younger widows to marry, have children, and manage their households, denying the adversary occasion for slander. 15For some have already turned aside to follow Satan.
KingJ
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Agreed.
When scripture says we are made new creations, grafted into the vine and receive eternal life. What it means is that we are we are made new creations, grafted into the vine and receive eternal life.
KingJ
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You are mixing apples and oranges.
All angels and mankind have free will from day 1 to eternity. A good God can never remove free will from a highly intelligent creation if He wants to continue in ''being righteous in all His ways'' Psalm 145:17 / being good.
Salvation is an event that takes place after we have from free will '''made''' a decision sincere and true, to serve and follow Jesus. A Matt 16:24 type decision. A Psalm 51:17 type decision. A Rev 2:10 type decision.
Salvation is a gift given to those who by their actions and hearts desire prove they ''want'' to be with God in that they hate what is evil and cling to what is good Rom 12:9.
Once a person therefore receives salvation, our intent to serve God, to be with God is ''''''known'''''''''. There is no more '''becoming known'''. We are now '''known''' by Him. Grafted in.
You are living as though you are not saved. There is no works attached to salvation. Works and heart intent exist only before salvation. Before God grafts people in.
This is why the statement that '''God is not a fool who grafts devils into His vine''' is so true.
Just as God did ''not'' make a mistake removing the devil from heaven, likewise God does not make the mistake of grafting a devil into heaven.
KingJ
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If others can be lost, God would be partial. You believe God is partial?
If we who do more for God, more then the criminal next to Jesus did. Do so at the risk of being ''lost'', it would make God partial. You believe God is partial?
I see you say He is not, yet you disagree with my point. Please explain.....
How it is that God says to person A, you will die after this single decision and go to eternal bliss and then to person B, you will stay on earth and serve me for fifty years at the risk of losing your salvation and going to hell for all eternity / or as with your belief, utterly annihilation.
Gee God, no partiality there whatsoever......
What nonsense.
Scripture is crystal clear that fallen angels will go to hell for all eternity.
The OSAS argument is that if God can remove beings for all eternity, He can accept beings for all eternity.
Seriously? Well then I guess you believe even if we make it to heaven, God's love may run out and one-day we will be booted from heaven.
This is hilarious. You have just proven my point.
You make short opinionated statements with no attempt at a rebuttal.
You basically just trolled my post. I feel like you need to go to the dictionary and read the definition of partiality and then come back and have a proper discussion.
KingJ
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Fear driven? I would think anti-OSAS is a fear driven doctrine.
Butch5
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You're basing you argument on the idea that God determines when people die. You'd have to establish that from Scripture. But, even so, that doesn't make God partial. Everyone is saved on the same basis, faith.
That may be so, but that's not what you said, You said no fallen angel would ever desire true repentance. You have no way of knowing that.
Sure, and He does. However, accepting people for all eternity doesn't mean they can't be lost before they get there.
What does this have to do with OSAS?
I simply pointed out the fallacies in you arguments. Since they're fallacious, there's an error in reasoning. There's not really any reason for me to address the errors. If you want to make some valid arguments I'd be glad to address them. Since you said you had hundreds I'm sure you can come up with some valid ones.
No, I didn't troll your post. You said no one could give a logical response. Well, the arguments aren't logical. Why do you expect a logical response to illogical arguments?
glad you know how the story ends....
perhaps one could liken it to conception in the womb? Baby is there and alive... but not yet born, but alive, nonetheless.
Bless you ....><>
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Hello @B-A-C.
I was not going to take part in the thread any further, but this beautiful entry could not be ignored. Thank you for quoting it.
Yes, Paul desired to win the prize, of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. The reward, prize or crown can be lost, but not the promise of life in Christ Jesus. He wasn't running the race in order to win salvation, for that is assured already, in Christ Jesus. He sought to 'work out' in practice, what God, in His abundance of mercy and grace had already 'worked in'.
Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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Hello @Butch5,
Yes, you probably have heard of the need to rightly divide the word of Truth reiterated more than once, and sometimes it can be said simply to act as a shield of defence by the one who says it, to simply deflect the argument away from himself. I know, because I have had it said to me too. It can become a convenient opt out for someone who either has not got the time to explain himself, or the desire to do so. However, in this case, in regard to the choice of verse you quoted, it was a fair statement, and one worth heeding.
With love in Christ Jesus
Chris
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