JerryfromMass
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Sure is relevant when that cult teaches its followers you can't know you are saved until you're dead.
Can Salvation Be lost?
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Butch5
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How does that address the question, "can salvation be lost"?
JerryfromMass
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Why are you concerned? I asked @Downunder directly, not you. Do you know something about whether he or she is in a cult? Because if she is, she needs our help.
Butch5
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You commented on my post. I don't know Downumder so I can't answer your question. However, just because someone believes something different than what is considered "orthodox" doesn't mean it's a cult. If that was the case modern Christianity would be cult because much of what modern Christians believe was considered heresy in the early church
JerryfromMass
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Heterodox is bordering on heresy, and heresy being taught in the name of Christianity is characteristic of a cult.
Butch5
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Then what does that make this? Virtually all of the early writers who write on the subject warn against Christians losing their salvation. The possibility of losing one's salvation was universal teaching in the early church. It was the heretics that taught one couldn't lose salvation. So, according to your statement, "heresy being taught in the name of Christianity is characteristic of a cult" what dos that make this? Aren't you teaching that salvation can't be lost? According to the first Christians that is heresy. You're teaching that. Does that mean you are in a cult?
Downunder
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she ???
JerryfromMass
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Scripture is clear: when you are regenerated you're saved and you are HIS and HIS eternally. If someone claims they are saved yet live like the devil or later renounce their faith, they were never saved to begin with. Good soil, good servants, wise virgins, all of whom were saved once and saved eternally. Anti-osas people can't seem to see through their misguided teachings that there is confident assurance for the truly saved born again believer, that you are presently eternally sealed and saved as a child of God.
JerryfromMass
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Her??? Him???
Downunder
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where is that consistent with scripture and the doctrine of the NT??
Butch5
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But you didn't answer the question. The early church, those taught by the apostles, universally taught that Christians could loose their salvation. There was no question about that. That was the church's position until about the 16 th century. According to your statement. "heresy being taught in the name of Christianity is characteristic of a cult" , what does that mean?
What modern Christians may misunderstand doesn't change what the apostles taught the early Christians.
Reba1
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one place is 1 John 2:19
JerryfromMass
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The teachings of scripture are clear on the issue of confident assurance of eternal salvation for the born again believer. When the seed lands on furtile soil, once saved always saved. When the Holy Spirit of promise seals the born again believer, once saved always saved. Round and round it goes. Done.
Butch5
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Justin Martyr
Dialog with Trypho, Chapter 47
Chapter 47. — Justin communicates with Christians who observe the law. Not a few Catholics do otherwise.
And Trypho again inquired, “But if some one, knowing that this is so, after he recognises that this man is Christ, and has believed in and obeys Him, wishes, however, to observe these [institutions], will he be saved?”
I said, “In my opinion, Trypho, such an one will be saved, if he does not strive in every way to persuade other men, — I mean those Gentiles who have been circumcised from error by Christ, to observe the same things as himself, telling them that they will not be saved unless they do so. This you did yourself at the commencement of the discourse, when you declared that I would not be saved unless I observe these institutions.”
Then he replied, “Why then have you said, ‘In my opinion, such an one will be saved,’ unless there are some who affirm that such will not be saved?”
“There are such people, Trypho,” I answered; “and these do not venture to have any intercourse with or to extend hospitality to such persons; but I do not agree with them. But if some, through weak-mindedness, wish to observe such institutions as were given by Moses, from which they expect some virtue, but which we believe were appointed by reason of the hardness of the people’s hearts, along with their hope in this Christ, and [wish to perform] the eternal and natural acts of righteousness and piety, yet choose to live with the Christians and the faithful, as I said before, not inducing them either to be circumcised like themselves, or to keep the Sabbath, or to observe any other such ceremonies, then I hold that we ought to join ourselves to such, and associate with them in all things as kinsmen and brethren. But if, Trypho,” I continued, “some of your race, who say they believe in this Christ, compel those Gentiles who believe in this Christ to live in all respects according to the law given by Moses, or choose not to associate so intimately with them, I in like manner do not approve of them. But I believe that even those, who have been persuaded by them to observe the legal dispensation along with their confession of God in Christ, shall probably be saved. And I hold, further, that such as have confessed and known this man to be Christ, yet who have gone back from some cause to the legal dispensation, and have denied that this man is Christ, and have repented not before death, shall by no means be saved. Further, I hold that those of the seed of Abraham who live according to the law, and do not believe in this Christ before death, shall likewise not be saved, and especially those who have anathematized and do anathematize this very Christ in the synagogues, and everything by which they might obtain salvation and escape the vengeance of fire. For the goodness and the loving-kindness of God, and His boundless riches, hold righteous and sinless the man who, as Ezekiel tells, repents of sins; and reckons sinful, unrighteous, and impious the man who fails away from piety and righteousness to unrighteousness and ungodliness. Wherefore also our Lord Jesus Christ said, ‘In whatsoever things I shall take you, in these I shall judge you.’ ”[4]
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
Origen
Origen de Principiis. Book 3, Section 8
Let us begin, then, with what is said about Pharaoh—that he was hardened by God, that he might not send away the people; along with which will be examined also the statement of the apostle, “Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth.” And certain of those who hold different opinions misuse these passages, themselves also almost destroying free-will by introducing ruined natures incapable of salvation, and others saved which it is impossible can be lost;
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
Here Origen argues against the concepts that would later be called Calvinism
Dialog with Trypho, Chapter 47
Chapter 47. — Justin communicates with Christians who observe the law. Not a few Catholics do otherwise.
And Trypho again inquired, “But if some one, knowing that this is so, after he recognises that this man is Christ, and has believed in and obeys Him, wishes, however, to observe these [institutions], will he be saved?”
I said, “In my opinion, Trypho, such an one will be saved, if he does not strive in every way to persuade other men, — I mean those Gentiles who have been circumcised from error by Christ, to observe the same things as himself, telling them that they will not be saved unless they do so. This you did yourself at the commencement of the discourse, when you declared that I would not be saved unless I observe these institutions.”
Then he replied, “Why then have you said, ‘In my opinion, such an one will be saved,’ unless there are some who affirm that such will not be saved?”
“There are such people, Trypho,” I answered; “and these do not venture to have any intercourse with or to extend hospitality to such persons; but I do not agree with them. But if some, through weak-mindedness, wish to observe such institutions as were given by Moses, from which they expect some virtue, but which we believe were appointed by reason of the hardness of the people’s hearts, along with their hope in this Christ, and [wish to perform] the eternal and natural acts of righteousness and piety, yet choose to live with the Christians and the faithful, as I said before, not inducing them either to be circumcised like themselves, or to keep the Sabbath, or to observe any other such ceremonies, then I hold that we ought to join ourselves to such, and associate with them in all things as kinsmen and brethren. But if, Trypho,” I continued, “some of your race, who say they believe in this Christ, compel those Gentiles who believe in this Christ to live in all respects according to the law given by Moses, or choose not to associate so intimately with them, I in like manner do not approve of them. But I believe that even those, who have been persuaded by them to observe the legal dispensation along with their confession of God in Christ, shall probably be saved. And I hold, further, that such as have confessed and known this man to be Christ, yet who have gone back from some cause to the legal dispensation, and have denied that this man is Christ, and have repented not before death, shall by no means be saved. Further, I hold that those of the seed of Abraham who live according to the law, and do not believe in this Christ before death, shall likewise not be saved, and especially those who have anathematized and do anathematize this very Christ in the synagogues, and everything by which they might obtain salvation and escape the vengeance of fire. For the goodness and the loving-kindness of God, and His boundless riches, hold righteous and sinless the man who, as Ezekiel tells, repents of sins; and reckons sinful, unrighteous, and impious the man who fails away from piety and righteousness to unrighteousness and ungodliness. Wherefore also our Lord Jesus Christ said, ‘In whatsoever things I shall take you, in these I shall judge you.’ ”[4]
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
Origen
Origen de Principiis. Book 3, Section 8
Let us begin, then, with what is said about Pharaoh—that he was hardened by God, that he might not send away the people; along with which will be examined also the statement of the apostle, “Therefore hath He mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardeneth.” And certain of those who hold different opinions misuse these passages, themselves also almost destroying free-will by introducing ruined natures incapable of salvation, and others saved which it is impossible can be lost;
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
Here Origen argues against the concepts that would later be called Calvinism
Butch5
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Again, you didn't answer the question. Yes, the Scriptures are clear. They clearly teach that one can lose salvation. The idea you're teaching comes from the Reformation. It was first considered by Augustine in the 5th century, however, the church rejected it. It didn't make it into the church until the Reformers, who studied Augustine, made it their doctrine. Even some of the early Reformers rejected the teaching.
Butch5
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I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
(Jn. 17:6-12 KJV)
Here Jesus talks about those God had given Him. He said they were God's and God gave them to Him. Then He says all that are God's are His and all that are His are God's. Then He speaks of Judas and says one was lost. This shows that God's people can be lost.
JerryfromMass
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Jesus said it plainly: I'm HIS and no one can pluck me out of HIS hands. If I am HIS, why would HE disown me after gifting me that which I treasure so much? Only the unregenerated would reject such a precious gift.
Butch5
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No one said He would disown anyone. People can turn away. As I said, it's clear in Scripture. Jesus said some believe for a while and in times of temptation turn away. It was the teaching of the church for 1500 years. The early Christians actually argued against the idea that one couldn't be lost. In the post to Reba I showed where Judas was lost. The OSAS idea only dates back in the church to the 1500's. However, it dates way back in history among Pagan groups. It was popular among Gnostic groups. Gnostics were groups that took Greek philosophy and mixed it with Christianity.
Reba1
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What you read as a loss for God , I read as His sovereign plan being fulfilled.
Butch5
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That's fine. The point is God's people can be lost. That's the question in the op
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