Sue D. said:

There is no reason why the Church would be here during the 7 yrs tribulation. It's the time -- once more -- for the Jewish people / Israel.

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There is no reason for you maybe, but maybe there is for God.

Sue D. said:

@Brother-Paul -- apparently that phrase "on the last day" -- is supposed to be referring to a post-trib rapture. I simply don't see how it would apply to that.

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Post Rapture is the end Sue, that would therefore fit 'the last day', does it not?

I personally believe, all options are possible, pre, mid, post Tribulation, we would be silly not to consider all options. That said, there appears to be more references to 'the last day' and it doesn't say, last day before the Tribulation period, it definitely says, last day. If fact Martha's comment to Jesus went further than the other four.

Martha said to him,
“I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.”

Shalom

Sue D. said:

There is no reason why the Church would be here during the 7 yrs tribulation. It's the time -- once more -- for the Jewish people / Israel.

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Our dear brother B-A-C, has pipped me at the post replying to your comment here Sue.

I agree with him fully. Many have to get out of the idea, Christians, that is the born again from above ones, will not have to go through the Tribulation period.

If it is a mid-trib, we will have to go through the first 3.5 years of woes, the woes are not as harsh as wrath poured out in the second 3.5 years, but they are not pleasant.

If it is the last day, then it will not be pleasant at all, are we ready to be martyred for our faith, or are we to comfortable in the place of worship we are in today?

Pray,pray, pray, time is short.

Shalom

Sue D. said:

There is no reason why the Church would be here during the 7 yrs tribulation. It's the time -- once more -- for the Jewish people / Israel.

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144000 from each of the 12 tribes.

Who are they?

I think they could be, probably are the Messianic Jews.

Ow if that is the case, they have accepted their Messiah, Yeshua ha Mashiach, Yezhua is their Lord, Yeshua is our Lord.

The Church, the ekklesia, the born again souls includes, Christians and Messianic Jews.

Interesting I think.

Bless you

Rev 14:1; And I looked, and lo, the Lamb stood on Mount Zion. And with Him were a hundred and forty-four thousands, having His Father's name written in their foreheads.
Rev 14:2; And I heard a voice from Heaven, like the voice of many waters and like the voice of a great thunder. And I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps.
Rev 14:3; And they sang as it were a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. And no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousands who were redeemed from the earth.
Rev 14:4; These are those who were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are those who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, as a firstfruit to God and to the Lamb.
Rev 14:5; And in their mouth was found no guile, for they were without blemish before the throne of God.

The problem with Calvinism.. is it causes you to question God's purpose and God's motives.
Some people ask why God would send people to hell forever.
Other's ask why God would make some of the church go through the tribulation.

It's the same logic... judging God... in both cases.

Brother-Paul said:

144000 from each of the 12 tribes.

Who are they?

I think they could be, probably are the Messianic Jews.

Ow if that is the case, they have accepted their Messiah, Yeshua ha Mashiach, Yezhua is their Lord, Yeshua is our Lord.

The Church, the ekklesia, the born again souls includes, Christians and Messianic Jews.

Interesting I think.

Bless you

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They would be Messianic Jews going out to evangelize the non-accepting Jews -- after the Church -- which is made up of all born again believers from all over the world -- up to 'that' time in history -- are taken up and out.

The Jews / Israel / are God's Chosen people. He will bring them to Himself. One way or another. They will be 'here' along with all the others who've not become born-again, too.

And there Will be a remnant that live through those 7 yrs. and enter the 1,000 yr earthly reign of Jesus Christ.

It's All interesting. To the Jews / to born again believers/ to everyone who reads / studies God's Word.

And the Jewish person would see it in a very different perspective.

@B-A-C -- Why bring Calvinsm into the discussion? He was simply another man with his interpretation Of Scripture. God doesn't send anyone to hell -- it's the individual's choice. Accepting God's way to stay Out of hell / lake of fire and brimstone OR God's Way of being in heaven / New Jerusalem. None of the Church is going through those 7 yrs. "Some" of the Church going through it would suggest either the more 'spiritual' Christians going 1st and then the lesser one's at some other time. But -- either a person is a born again person or he/ she Isn't. Some have brought up the concept of 'spiritual' compared to 'carnal' Christians. At the time Of the rapture -- either you're a born again believer or you're not. And those who Are -- Will go Up.

@Brother-Paul -- post-rapture is not the end. The 7 yr tribulation period of time is followed by the 1,000 yr earthly reign of Christ. Then satan will be loosed from the Abyss where he's been locked up. Then a war and then the judgement seat of Christ. There's a lot of future history -- and then Eternity will begin.

So -- really -- what Does constitute 'the end'?!

Sue D. said:

Why bring Calvinsm into the discussion? He was simply another man with his interpretation Of Scripture.

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Because pre-trib isn't in the Bible. Post trib is.
Pre-trib is in Calvinism, also question why God does things tends to be a part of Calvinism.
If you ask a question like...

"Why would God have the church go through the tribulation" ....you're now making yourself God, judging God.

as soon as you do that, you're likely going to be accused of Calvinism.

Sue D. said:

There is no reason why the Church would be here during the 7 yrs tribulation. It's the time -- once more -- for the Jewish people / Israel.

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What 7 year tribulation?? That is a very bad misreading of Daniel 9:27 which is about Jesus and the gospel.
And in any case; why would Christians not go through a tribulation?
When in history have real Christians ever been spared from tribulations?

Acts 14:21 When they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Iconium and to Antioch,
14:22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.

Sue D. said:

So -- really -- what Does constitute 'the end'?!

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As scripture rightly teaches - the last trumpet call - the Day of the Lord - the first resurrection

There are two instances of trumps sounding -- one is in 1 Thessalonians 4: 16 "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first."

And then starting in Chapter 8 of Reve. vs 2 - the beginning of 7 trumpets. The last one is found in Rev 10:7

So -- it depends on which trumpet sound you're talking about.

Downunder said:

What 7 year tribulation?? That is a very bad misreading of Daniel 9:27 which is about Jesus and the gospel.
And in any case; why would Christians not go through a tribulation?
When in history have real Christians ever been spared from tribulations?

Acts 14:21 When they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Iconium and to Antioch,
14:22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.

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But, of Course, it would be a 'very bad misreading' of that passage. (sarcastic)

Christians / born again believers have been told that they would suffer trials and tribulations as part of their being believers.

But there's a difference between all the trials and times of tribulations that believers have always endured AND the 7 years Of that are yet to come.

And, God is the only One who Does know when Anything is going to take place. So -- lets' be ready :0

Therefore the seventh trumpet is the last trumpet
Rev 10:7 but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to trump, then is also finished the mystery of God, according to the good tidings which he declared to his bondmen the prophets.
1Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

The shout of the archangel, the last trumpet, the last day - then it is all over folks - Jesus has arrived in power and glory and has gathered his elect.

Sue D. said:

AND the 7 years Of that are yet to come.

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But there ain't going to be a 7 year great tribulation where Christians are going to be beamed up to the mothership and look down to watch the world burn.
Unscriptural and a denial of the power of God to keep and protect true worshippers through what is coming upon the whole world.
Matthew 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.
24:22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
repeated same in mark 13;19-20

Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
21:28 But when these things begin to come to pass, look up, and lift up your heads; because your redemption draweth nigh. [that is us people]
warning to us - the church of God the body of Christ
Luke 21:34 But take heed to yourselves, lest haply your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and life’s cares, and that day come upon you suddenly as a snare:
21:35 for so shall it come upon all that dwell on the face of all the earth.
21:36 But watch at every season, making supplication, that ye may prevail to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Proverbs 24:10
(ESV) If you faint in the day of adversity, your strength is small.
(YLT) Thou hast shewed thyself weak in a day of adversity, Straitened is thy power,

Downunder said:

But there ain't going to be a 7 year great tribulation where Christians are going to be beamed up to the mothership and look down to watch the world burn.
Unscriptural and a denial of the power of God to keep and protect true worshippers through what is coming upon the whole world.
Matthew 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.
24:22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
repeated same in mark 13;19-20

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You're right -- there isn't going to be a 'mothership' beaming born again believers up to it. And the world won't be burning as a result.

I'm not going to 'fight' about it. Whatever happens will happen.

And it in no way denying the power of God.

BTW - though -- when is the marriage super of the Lamb supposed to take place? When the Church / Bride of Christ is united with Jesus Christ and then 'they' return with Him to reign those 1,000 years.

@Sue D.

I see no evidence of pre-trib in the Bible. But I do see post trib.

Pre trib people, believe God will withdraw us from the tribulations, as he did with. Moses and Noah. This thinking is sound, until we consider the time of Jesus and the early Church.

Christians will go through tribulations, of all kinds, through out history, throughout the latter days which started from the times of Jesus, until the last day.

To think we will not have to go through the tribulation period is false, look at NT scripture of those MARTYRED for their faith


NOTE: These were not lifted out as were Moses and the Jews with him and Noah and his family and Lot in the OT.


A List Of New Testament Martyrs

Jesus Christ Crucified

John the Baptist, Son of Zacharias and Elizabeth - beheaded in the castle of Machaerus, at the command of Herod Antipas, A.D. 32.

Luke - Hanged

Mark - Dragged To Death

Matthew - Beheaded

Apostle John - Banished

Apostle Paul - Beheaded

Apostle Peter - Crucified

Apostle Philip - Stoned To Death

Andrew, the holy Apostle - crucified at Patras, in Achaia, about A.D. 70.

Antipas - Roasted Alive

Aristarchus - Slain

Barnabas - Burned Alive

Bartholomew - Tortured And Beheaded

Epaphras - Slain

Four Friends Of Paul - Martyred

James, The Brother Of Christ - Beaten To Death (correctly translated name Jakob)

James - Slain With The Sword

Matthias - Stoned and Beheaded

Onesiphorus And Porphyius Tied To Wild Horses, Dragged To Death

Silas - Scourged And Martyred

Simon Zelotes and Judas Thaddeus - Slain

Stephen - Stoned To Death

Thomas - Tortured And Burned In A Furnace

Timothy - Stoned To Death

We must forget what false teachers have said about Christians being lifted out, lifted up, raptured, because of the OT examples

In His Love

Just a few verses for the Christian, the born again, washed and spiritually regenerated soul.

Matthew 5:11-12
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

John 15:18
If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

1 Peter 4:14-16
When people insult you because you follow Christ, you are blessed, because the glorious Spirit, the Spirit of God, is with you. Do not suffer for murder, theft, or any other crime, nor because you trouble other people. But if you suffer because you are a Christian, do not be ashamed. Praise God because you wear that name.

2 Timothy 3:12
Yes! All who want to live a God-like life who belong to Christ Jesus will suffer from others.

John 16:1-3
These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended. They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

Matthew 24:9
Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake.

Matthew 10:28
Don’t be afraid of those who want to kill your body; they cannot touch your soul. Fear only God, who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

There are a number of folk hereabouts who persist in posting comments whose
subject matter is unrelated to the topic of this thread. They likely behave
themselves in such a manner because their base nature's impulses are stronger
than their better judgment.

• Jer 13:23 . . Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither
can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.

I think it probably goes without saying that headstrong people aren't allowed in
Heaven due to the disruptive nature of their conduct.

UPDATE: 196 days have elapsed since my first comment. If the figures in post No.5
are in the ball park, then something like 12,176,304 new arrivals have checked into
the fiery sector of Hades since Oct 08, 2020.
_

@Beetow -- WOW -- the topic of the thread = many or few. You choose to apply it to hell. As has already been pointed out -- by Another person -- you're pretty much 'hijacked' it yourself.

Why don't you share how you REALLY feel.

And with your second comment -- you are So off-base with that comment. "headstrong people aren't allowed n heaven due to the disruptive nature of their conduct.". I'm certainly thankful that it's not up to you to determine how / who is allowed in heaven.