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Trinity Passages Can you spot the trinity in each?

Butch5 said:
Hi Sue,

I don't think it's obvious. That's why I'm trying to work through it with you and asking you questions.

It's not agree with me or you're mistaken. It's agree with proper reasoning or one is mistaken.

Suppose someone believed that 1+1=3. Now suppose they came in here and started to argue a calculus problem. Would we engage them in an argument about calculus or would we point out that the premise, 1+1=3, of their argument is wrong? It doesnt matter how well or adamantly they argued. The argument would be wrong because they aren't reasoning properly in the premise. 1+1 doesnt equal 3. So, no matter how passionately they argued the calculus problem it will be wrong because their premise is irrational or no proper reasoning
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And Now you bring in 'proper reasoning or it's wrong'. And who, exactly is supposed to be possessing 'proper reasoning' you or Scripture. God's Word Is my authority not your interpretation of it.

Your example of 1+1=3 is faulty -- one can use our fingers to to determine that 1+1 = 2. Math is precise.
 
@Butch5 -- your 'proper reasoning' eliminates the concept of the Holy Spirit coming upon Mary when she conceived Jesus. Biology 101 tells us that it takes both a man and a woman coming together sexually to create a baby.

The Holy Spirit is not another man -- so therefore, that could not have taken place -- HOWEVER -- Scripture tells us it did.
 
Sue D. said:
And Now you bring in 'proper reasoning or it's wrong'. And who, exactly is supposed to be possessing 'proper reasoning' you or Scripture. God's Word Is my authority not your interpretation of it.

Your example of 1+1=3 is faulty -- one can use our fingers to to determine that 1+1 = 2. Math is precise.
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Yes, math is precise. So is proper reasoning.

I go back to proper reasoning because that's how we determine truth. If we reject proper reasoning we can claim anything is true. If I reject proper reasoning I can claim that 1+1=3. One might say well, we can prove that it's not 3 but rather 2. Yeah, but that doesnt matter because I've rejected proper reasoning. I can beleive anything I want to believe is true. Am I being irrational? Yes. Am I wrong? Yes. But I can still argue all day long that 1+1=3. In the end who is hurt by this? Is it the rest of the world who properly reasons that 1+1=2 or me. In the end I'm just hurting myself by rejecting proper reasoning.
 
Sue D. said:
Jesus Isn't God -- Jesus is the Son of God -- second person of the Godhead.

And you're going to come back with John 10:30 saying that "I and my Father are One" which -- when He was here on earth was true. Jesus was God incarnate (God in the flesh). And That is one of those concepts we simply accept.

The Holy Spirit is referred to as He in John 16:13 -- the Spirit of truth. Otherwise -- the Holy Spirit is referred to in the male gender / He. Just as God is Spirit and is referred to as the Father / a male.
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You said Jesus isn't God, but rather the Son God. Does that mean they are two separate beings?

I'm a little confused. If Jesus isn't God, how was He God incanate? God incarnate means God in the flesh.

Regarding the Holy Spirit being called He. This is a translation issue. In the Greek text the pronoun used for the Spirit isn't He, it's it. Because translators believe the Spirit is a third person they translate it as He rather than it.
 
Sue D. said:
@Butch5 -- your 'proper reasoning' eliminates the concept of the Holy Spirit coming upon Mary when she conceived Jesus. Biology 101 tells us that it takes both a man and a woman coming together sexually to create a baby.

The Holy Spirit is not another man -- so therefore, that could not have taken place -- HOWEVER -- Scripture tells us it did.
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Hi Sue,

That has nothing to do with proper reasoning. Reasoning is the way we process information. Proper reasoning is doing it corrrectly. It has nothing to do with miracles.
 
Sue D. said:
@Butch5 -- so you believe that we have to fully understand God and be able to explain Him in order to witness to other people? I don't think Anyone 'Fully' understands God or can be able To 'explain' Him to another person.

But we Can have the assurance of our personal salvation -- understand why That is important and share with another person how 'I' came to accept Jesus Christ as My personal Savior. It's called our personal testimony.

And, yes, we Should know what we believe and Why we believe 'it'. Read, study God's Word. What salvation Is / Why we need it / How to obtain in. That there IS a heaven or hell in each person's future. How to stay Out of hell and be able to Be in heaven. Upon our physical death, we Will be in eternity with No turning back. And the same thing applies to the rapture / up-gathering of born again believers / the Church. We Don't know when that will take place. Only God the Father does. But once That takes place -- in the twinkling of an eye -- our eternal destination Is Decided. No turning back.

And Jesus Christ will come back for us when the Father says it's time to. The death, burial and bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ on the 3rd day makes our salvation possible. (without the shedding of innocent blood -- there is no remission of our sins)

Each born again believer has the Holy Spirit indwelling them -- never leaves until we are safe with Jesus Christ.

I do believe that the entire trinity has been brought into this. How all three = tri -- works together in our salvation.
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I didn't one has to fully understand God. I said I submit that was can understand what God has revealed.
 
@Butch5 -- we've already had this conversation a few times and it usually turns into logical fallacies or 'whatever'

You're Missing the spiritual aspect of Scripture -- you enjoy sharing your intellectual assessments Of , but it hasn't reached your Heart. And That is where it Needs to be.
 
Butch5 said:
I didn't one has to fully understand God. I said I submit that was can understand what God has revealed.
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Okay -- When challenged you Do concede to a certain extent. Okay -- God reveals to us through His Word / the Holy Spirit's teaching us / our reading and studying His Word.

Going back to your comment about 'proper reasoning' -- God doesn't Want our 'proper reasoning' of Scripture -- He wants our Heart -- He wants relationship with us which is only possible through the death, burial and bodily resurrection Of Jesus Christ.

God reveals to a person as much as they're willing to accept from Him. When 'we' are trying to apply proper reasoning to Scripture -- we're missing the point Of Scripture.
 
Butch5 said:
Yes, math is precise. So is proper reasoning.

I go back to proper reasoning because that's how we determine truth. If we reject proper reasoning we can claim anything is true. If I reject proper reasoning I can claim that 1+1=3. One might say well, we can prove that it's not 3 but rather 2. Yeah, but that doesnt matter because I've rejected proper reasoning. I can beleive anything I want to believe is true. Am I being irrational? Yes. Am I wrong? Yes. But I can still argue all day long that 1+1=3. In the end who is hurt by this? Is it the rest of the world who properly reasons that 1+1=2 or me. In the end I'm just hurting myself by rejecting proper reasoning.
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Re: how we determine truth -- John 14:6 Jesus is telling us that "I am the Way, the Truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by Me." Jesus Christ.

Can a person -- through 'proper reasoning' come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ?
 
Sue D. said:
@Butch5 -- we've already had this conversation a few times and it usually turns into logical fallacies or 'whatever'

You're Missing the spiritual aspect of Scripture -- you enjoy sharing your intellectual assessments Of , but it hasn't reached your Heart. And That is where it Needs to be.
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Hi Sue,

I'm not missing it. I fully understand that the Spirit works within us. But again, I don't believe God is going to contradict Himself. He's not going to say one thing in Scripture and then lead a Christian to an opposite conclusion on a given subject. I believe when that happens we have something wrong. God is the one who created the human mind and the one who created proper reasoning. They work together so we can interact in the creation. Again, if we reject that we have no basis for truth.
 
Sue D. said:
@complete -- you do have your opinion on this matter -- and you're entitled to it.

But there's really nothing wrong with using the term 'trinity' because it Does describe the tri-unity Of the Godhead. Without the trinity, we have no salvation.

@Butch5 -- obviously it 'works' or it wouldn't be in Scripture / God put it there.

Then let's us have a 'learning' Spirit as well. Your 'teaching' comes across as 'either agree with me or you're mistaken'.

The trinity = tri-unity -- God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son and the Holy Spirit.
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Hello @Sue D,

With respect to you, Sue, no matter how seemingly appropriate a word may be, if God has not used it in His word, I believe we should not use it. Though I have been brought up with the use of the word Trinity, I now do question it's use. There are other practices, and wording, which believers have adopted as 'appropriate' in regard to the observance of their faith that I believe should be considered in the light of God's word, too, to make sure that we have not built on the sure foundation we have in Christ with what could be considered as, 'wood, hay and stubble' (1 Corinthians 12-15).

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
Sue D. said:
Okay -- When challenged you Do concede to a certain extent. Okay -- God reveals to us through His Word / the Holy Spirit's teaching us / our reading and studying His Word.

Going back to your comment about 'proper reasoning' -- God doesn't Want our 'proper reasoning' of Scripture -- He wants our Heart -- He wants relationship with us which is only possible through the death, burial and bodily resurrection Of Jesus Christ.

God reveals to a person as much as they're willing to accept from Him. When 'we' are trying to apply proper reasoning to Scripture -- we're missing the point Of Scripture.
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Without proper reasoning there is no basis to even understand the Scriptures. Whether we realize it or not when we read the Scriotures we are reasoning. People reason every day of their lives. If a child touches a hot stove, they will hesitate the next time. They are reasoning. Last time I got burnt, I better not touch it again. There's no getting away from reasoning it's in every facet of life. It's just a question of whether we do it correctly or not. The child who touches the hot stove a second time has not reasoned properly. It's not faith vs. Reasoning. Its faith plus reasoning.
 
@Butch5 -- look at the previous post -- John 14:6 ---- and yes, God created the human mind , but you've introduced 'proper reasoning'. You'd like God's Word to agree with your 'proper reasoning' -- God is the only one with omniscience / all knowledge. We are mere humans in need Of God's salvation. People come up with all kinds of concepts -- some are Scriptural and some Not. Man's concept of evolutionary though is Way off. God's creating the world in 6/24 hr days Is the truth of how it all happened.
 
Sue D. said:
@Butch5 -- look at the previous post -- John 14:6 ---- and yes, God created the human mind , but you've introduced 'proper reasoning'. You'd like God's Word to agree with your 'proper reasoning' -- God is the only one with omniscience / all knowledge. We are mere humans in need Of God's salvation. People come up with all kinds of concepts -- some are Scriptural and some Not. Man's concept of evolutionary though is Way off. God's creating the world in 6/24 hr days Is the truth of how it all happened.
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I've only introduced it into the conversation. God created it. The reason I introduced it was because people reasoning wrongly which is a logical fallacy.

I'm surprised that anyone would argue against thinking correctly. However, I think, at this point we're comparing apples and oranges.
 
Sue D. said:
Re: how we determine truth -- John 14:6 Jesus is telling us that "I am the Way, the Truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by Me." Jesus Christ.

Can a person -- through 'proper reasoning' come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ?
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It's the only way
 
complete said:
Hello @Sue D,

With respect to you, Sue, no matter how seemingly appropriate a word may be, if God has not used it in His word, I believe we should not use it. Though I have been brought up with the use of the word Trinity, I now do question it's use. There are other practices, and wording, which believers have adopted as 'appropriate' in regard to the observance of their faith that I believe should be considered in the light of God's word, too, to make sure that we have not built on the sure foundation we have in Christ with what could be considered as, 'wood, hay and stubble' (1 Corinthians 12-15).

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
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Applying your reasoning -- very little in this modern world's English language is found in God's Word. Medical knowledge for sure is not mentioned in God's Word. Anything to do with electricity is not in God's Word.
 
Sue D. said:
Okay -- then HOW does a person come to salvation through 'proper reasoning'.
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Regarding salvation God said to Israel,

"Come now, and let us reason together,” Says the LORD, “Though your sins are like scarlet, They shall be as white as snow; Though they are red like crimson, They shall be as wool."

There is God telling Israel to reason through their salvation.
 
Sue D. said:
@Butch5 -- look at the previous post -- John 14:6 ---- and yes, God created the human mind , but you've introduced 'proper reasoning'. You'd like God's Word to agree with your 'proper reasoning' -- God is the only one with omniscience / all knowledge. We are mere humans in need Of God's salvation. People come up with all kinds of concepts -- some are Scriptural and some Not. Man's concept of evolutionary though is Way off. God's creating the world in 6/24 hr days Is the truth of how it all happened.
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Hi @Sue D,

I think that you and Butch5 have a different understanding as to what 'proper reasoning' is. Butch5, like yourself, is a believer, so He is viewing what is written within God's word with the eyes and reasoning of a Believer, which makes all the difference, doesn't it? You should both be able to apply 'proper reasoning' in a manner that will not deny the truth, but receive it and rejoice in it. So there should be nothing to prevent you both from considering this subject or any other scripture related subject together amicably and reach an understanding, not of each other necessarily, but of the word of God that you both know and love.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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