We certainly don't want to believe that people in hell Will suffer for eternity. But you seem to set yourself as an authority on what Scripture really does or doesn't say.
@BUTCH 5 -- I'm trying to show You that Scripture Isn't logical sometimes -- a talking donkey isn't logical , either. You said that logic dictates that a glass can't be half full and half empty at the same time. But, yes it Can. You're talking about man and logic and that it came from God. Miracles are Not logical. The episode in the Old Testament in which the three men were thrown into the fiery furnace -- they Should have died instantly -- but they didn't die at All. They came out not even smelling of smoke. And there was a 4thman seen in with them. That is Not logical -- but it definitely Did happen. And the talking donkey in the Old Testament That happened also.

Sue D. said:

We certainly don't want to believe that people in hell Will suffer for eternity. But you seem to set yourself as an authority on what Scripture really does or doesn't say.
@BUTCH 5 -- I'm trying to show You that Scripture Isn't logical sometimes -- a talking donkey isn't logical , either. You said that logic dictates that a glass can't be half full and half empty at the same time. But, yes it Can. You're talking about man and logic and that it came from God. Miracles are Not logical. The episode in the Old Testament in which the three men were thrown into the fiery furnace -- they Should have died instantly -- but they didn't die at All. They came out not even smelling of smoke. And there was a 4thman seen in with them. That is Not logical -- but it definitely Did happen. And the talking donkey in the Old Testament That happened also.

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No Sue, I didn't say logic dictates that a glass can't be half full and half empty. You said that. I said logic dictates that a glass can't be both full and empty at the same time. As I've said, miracles don't contradict logic. Please, study a little on logic and you'll see that they don't.

● Luke 16:27-31 . . I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment. Abraham replied: They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.

. . . No, father Abraham, he said, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent. He said to him: If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.

In John's gospel; Jesus restored one of his friends to life. It caused a number of the Jews to believe in him; but there was an element that even though the resurrection was successful, they not only refused to believe in Jesus, but they wanted to murder his friend; apparently the man had become a sort of eighth wonder of the world in those parts and the area's residents just had to see it for themselves. Many of those folk no doubt knew the family and had attended the man's funeral.

● John 12:9-11 . . Meanwhile a large crowd of Jews found out that Jesus was there and came, not only because of him but also to see Lazarus, whom he had raised from the dead. So the chief priests made plans to kill Lazarus as well, for on account of him many of the Jews were going over to Jesus and putting their faith in him.

Now the thing to note is that Jesus' friend was really and truly deceased rather than in a near-death coma; yet his recovery did not have the desired effect upon some of the religious elite; which was a real-life validation of the truth of Abraham's prediction. It's unfortunate that there are a number of obtuse souls out there for whom no amount of proof is sufficient to change their minds.
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Beetow said:

● Luke 16:27-31 . . I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment. Abraham replied: They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.

. . . No, father Abraham, he said, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent. He said to him: If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.

In John's gospel; Jesus restored one of his friends to life. It caused a number of the Jews to believe in him; but there was an element that even though the resurrection was successful, they not only refused to believe in Jesus, but they wanted to murder his friend; apparently the man had become a sort of eighth wonder of the world in those parts and the area's residents just had to see it for themselves. Many of those folk no doubt knew the family and had attended the man's funeral.

● John 12:9-11 . . Meanwhile a large crowd of Jews found out that Jesus was there and came, not only because of him but also to see Lazarus, whom he had raised from the dead. So the chief priests made plans to kill Lazarus as well, for on account of him many of the Jews were going over to Jesus and putting their faith in him.

Now the thing to note is that Jesus' friend was really and truly deceased rather than in a near-death coma; yet his recovery did not have the desired effect upon some of the religious elite; which was a real-life validation of the truth of Abraham's prediction. It's unfortunate that there are a number of obtuse souls out there for whom no amount of proof is sufficient to change their minds.
_

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Notice Abraham's response to the Rich Man, they will not be convinced even if one rises from the dead. Abraham understood the Rich Man to be referring to someone who was resurrected, not someone who was a ghost. Again, the parable isn't about life after death. It's a parable about the judgment that Israel would soon face.

Why do you refuse answer my questions? Who wore purple and fine linen? Who had five brothers?

It seems that every time Jesus tells a parable, the Bible identifies it as such.

Matt13:18 ; "Hear then the parable of the sower.
Matt 13:24; Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.
Matt 13:31; He presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field;
Matt 13:33; He spoke another parable to them, "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three pecks of flour until it was all leavened."
Matt 13:34; All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables, and He did not speak to them without a parable.
Matt 13:36; Then He left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field."
Matt 15:15; Peter said to Him, "Explain the parable to us."
Matt21:33; "Listen to another parable. There was a landowner who PLANTED A VINEYARD AND PUT A WALL AROUND IT AND DUG A WINE PRESS IN IT, AND BUILT A TOWER, and rented it out to vine-growers and went on a journey.
Matt 24:32; "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near;
Mark 4:13; And He *said to them, "Do you not understand this parable? How will you understand all the parables?
Mark 4:30; And He said, "How shall we picture the kingdom of God, or by what parable shall we present it?
Mark 4:34; and He did not speak to them without a parable; but He was explaining everything privately to His own disciples.
Mark 7:17; When he had left the crowd and entered the house, His disciples questioned Him about the parable.
Mark 12:12; And they were seeking to seize Him, and yet they feared the people, for they understood that He spoke the parable against them. And so they left Him and went away.
Mark 13:28; "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near.
Luke 5:36; And He was also telling them a parable: "No one tears a piece of cloth from a new garment and puts it on an old garment; otherwise he will both tear the new, and the piece from the new will not match the old.
Luke 6:39; And He also spoke a parable to them: "A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Will they not both fall into a pit?
Luke 8:4; When a large crowd was coming together, and those from the various cities were journeying to Him, He spoke by way of a parable:
Luke 8:9; His disciples began questioning Him as to what this parable meant.
Luke 8:11; "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.
Luke 12:16; And He told them a parable, saying, "The land of a rich man was very productive.
Luke 12:41; Peter said, "Lord, are You addressing this parable to us, or to everyone else as well?"
Luke 13:6; And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any.
Luke 14:7; And He began speaking a parable to the invited guests when He noticed how they had been picking out the places of honor at the table, saying to them,
Luke 15:3; So He told them this parable, saying,
Luke 18:1; Now He was telling them a parable to show that at all times they ought to pray and not to lose heart,
Luke 18:9; And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt:
Luke 19:11; While they were listening to these things, Jesus went on to tell a parable, because He was near Jerusalem, and they supposed that the kingdom of God was going to appear immediately.
Luke 20:9; And He began to tell the people this parable: "A man planted a vineyard and rented it out to vine-growers, and went on a journey for a long time.
Luke 20:19; The scribes and the chief priests tried to lay hands on Him that very hour, and they feared the people; for they understood that He spoke this parable against them.
Luke 21:29; Then He told them a parable: "Behold the fig tree and all the trees;

..and yet the story of Lazarus and the rich man is NOT identified as a parable anywhere.
Also whenever Jesus told a parable He always used improper nouns (LOL, Jesus - improper) He always said, a man, a son, a garden, a tree, a fish net, etc...
but in the story of Lazarus and the rich, He calls Lazarus and Abraham by name.

B-A-C said:

It seems that every time Jesus tells a parable, the Bible identifies it as such.

Matt13:18 ; "Hear then the parable of the sower.
Matt 13:24; Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.
Matt 13:31; He presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field;
Matt 13:33; He spoke another parable to them, "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three pecks of flour until it was all leavened."
Matt 13:34; All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables, and He did not speak to them without a parable.
Matt 13:36; Then He left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said, "Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field."
Matt 15:15; Peter said to Him, "Explain the parable to us."
Matt21:33; "Listen to another parable. There was a landowner who PLANTED A VINEYARD AND PUT A WALL AROUND IT AND DUG A WINE PRESS IN IT, AND BUILT A TOWER, and rented it out to vine-growers and went on a journey.
Matt 24:32; "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near;
Mark 4:13; And He *said to them, "Do you not understand this parable? How will you understand all the parables?
Mark 4:30; And He said, "How shall we picture the kingdom of God, or by what parable shall we present it?
Mark 4:34; and He did not speak to them without a parable; but He was explaining everything privately to His own disciples.
Mark 7:17; When he had left the crowd and entered the house, His disciples questioned Him about the parable.
Mark 12:12; And they were seeking to seize Him, and yet they feared the people, for they understood that He spoke the parable against them. And so they left Him and went away.
Mark 13:28; "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near.
Luke 5:36; And He was also telling them a parable: "No one tears a piece of cloth from a new garment and puts it on an old garment; otherwise he will both tear the new, and the piece from the new will not match the old.
Luke 6:39; And He also spoke a parable to them: "A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Will they not both fall into a pit?
Luke 8:4; When a large crowd was coming together, and those from the various cities were journeying to Him, He spoke by way of a parable:
Luke 8:9; His disciples began questioning Him as to what this parable meant.
Luke 8:11; "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.
Luke 12:16; And He told them a parable, saying, "The land of a rich man was very productive.
Luke 12:41; Peter said, "Lord, are You addressing this parable to us, or to everyone else as well?"
Luke 13:6; And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any.
Luke 14:7; And He began speaking a parable to the invited guests when He noticed how they had been picking out the places of honor at the table, saying to them,
Luke 15:3; So He told them this parable, saying,
Luke 18:1; Now He was telling them a parable to show that at all times they ought to pray and not to lose heart,
Luke 18:9; And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt:
Luke 19:11; While they were listening to these things, Jesus went on to tell a parable, because He was near Jerusalem, and they supposed that the kingdom of God was going to appear immediately.
Luke 20:9; And He began to tell the people this parable: "A man planted a vineyard and rented it out to vine-growers, and went on a journey for a long time.
Luke 20:19; The scribes and the chief priests tried to lay hands on Him that very hour, and they feared the people; for they understood that He spoke this parable against them.
Luke 21:29; Then He told them a parable: "Behold the fig tree and all the trees;

..and yet the story of Lazarus and the rich man is NOT identified as a parable anywhere.
Also whenever Jesus told a parable He always used improper nouns (LOL, Jesus - improper) He always said, a man, a son, a garden, a tree, a fish net, etc...
but in the story of Lazarus and the rich, He calls Lazarus and Abraham by name.

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How does does it start? "There was a certain Rich Man". How does the parable before it start? "There was a certain Rich man. How does the parable before that one start? " there was a certain man". See a pattern?

● Luke 16:21-23 . . Now it came about that the poor man died and he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. And in hades; etc. etc.

Angels provided Lazarus' transportation to Abraham's location. The Bible doesn't say who, or what, provided the rich man's transportation.

One of the most disturbing scenes I've yet to observe in a Hollywood movie occurs in "GHOST" starring Patrick Swayze and Demi Moore. When someone marked for hell passes away, these eerie phantoms emerge, uttering awful moans, and drag their panic-stricken captives down into the ground. I don't know if any of that is true or not; but if it's even close to reality; I don't even want to think about it.

But can you picture in your mind's eye just how shocking and terrifying it would be to die and of a sudden be able to see the spirit creatures all around us stalking people day and night 24/7/365 without our knowing, patiently waiting the moment when they can grab people and transport them to the rich man's side of that chasm depicted in Luke 16:26

Webster's defines an expert witness as: A witness, who by virtue of education, training, skill, or experience, is believed to have knowledge in a particular subject beyond that of the average person, sufficient that others may officially (and legally) rely upon the witness's specialized (scientific, technical or other) opinion about an evidence or fact issue within the scope of their expertise, referred to as the expert opinion, as an assistance to the fact-finder.

Well; I expect it goes without saying that in matters related to the afterlife, there is no more qualified expert witness than the Logos-- the voice of God --mentioned in John 1:1-3 and John 1:14 because Jesus Christ has actually seen the afterlife for himself and knows what he's talking about compared to book-learned seminary experts who don't.

● Matt 7:28-29 . .When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.

One who has authority is an expert witness who knows what they're talking about; and certainly Jesus Christ easily qualifies.

● John 3:31-32 . . He who comes from above is above all, he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all. What He has seen and heard, of that he bears witness.

I've gone to the trouble of certifying Jesus Christ as an expert witness because when he tells a parable, or any other story for that matter, I seriously believe that people need to recognize that the details of his stories are just as valid as his stories' spiritual applications.
_

@Beetow -- I saw that movie, too -- and that Was a horrific scene -- depicting someone actually being carried off to hell -- and it Needs to scare the daylights out of us. Hell -- eternal separation from God - Forever -- is down-played So Much.

It's Not popular to preach -- people want 'feel-good' sermons. But - a pastor Needs to teach the Realities of Scripture.

The more popular stance is that Hell will only last until we die -- the lake of fire and brimstone will burn us up and that will be that. Well -- for those who Do end up there. The rest of us will be enjoying eternity with God. It has been stated that eternity in hell will be just as eternal as heaven will be.

Butch5 said:

Why do you refuse answer my questions?

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No doubt your opinion of Luke 16:19-31 is important to you; but I have no intention of helping you propagate it.

I am convinced in my own mind that Christ's parables were true stories, while in your own mind they are amalgams of fiction and fantasy. Your take on the Lord's parables is not only unacceptable, but also insinuates that Christ is a man of questionable integrity who can't be trusted to tell the truth. We are poles apart, you and I, and at this point in time I see no possibility of us ever coming together on this issue.
_

Beetow said:

No doubt your opinion of Luke 16:19-31 is important to you; but I have no intention of helping you propagate it.

I am convinced in my own mind that Christ's parables were true stories, while in your own mind they are amalgams of fiction and fantasy. Your take on the Lord's parables is not only unacceptable, but also insinuates that Christ is a man of questionable integrity who can't be trusted to tell the truth. We are poles apart, you and I, and at this juncture, I see no possibility of us ever coming together on this issue.
_

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And, instead of discussion we get the ad hominem. A simple, I don't know would have sufficed.

@Butch5 -- You simply don't like his response.

Sue D. said:

@Butch5 -- You simply don't like his response.

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Seriously? He wouldn't engage because he doesn't know the answers. Whenever the ad hominems come out it's a sure sign that one's argument has collapsed.

And, of Course, You are Always right. (wrong)

I would submit that the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man is not about the afterlife at all, but rather it is a judgment against those to whom Jesus was speaking, the leadership of Israel. Why would one think this is a parable about an afterlife? If that 's the case, does it mean that the rich go to hell and the poor get saved? Jesus didn't say the rich man was wicked, He just said he was rich. Jesus didn't say that Lazarus was righteous, just that he was a poor. What is here that would indicate that this is what happens to the righteous and the wicked?

The details of the parable give us an indication of what it means. We're told that the Rich Man was clothed in purple and fine linen. What does that mean? We see that the Rich Man is a Jew. Why? We're told that the Rich Man had 5 brothers, why? Why is the beggar named Lazarus? What is "Abraham's bosom:"? All of these details are indications of what the parable is about. This parable is drawn from several Old Testament passages. For instance, the Rich Man is said to be suffering torment in flames in Hades. However, Jesus indicated that Gehenna is where the wicked will go. In the Scriptures Hades is usually translated the grave, not a place of torment. The grave is where the body goes. The Rich Man was in Hades, this indicates his body. We know that dead people can't speak so we should consider that this is a parable.

So, what do the details mean? In Jesus' day Israel didn't have a king, however, the priesthood unofficially served that role. Purple was the color royalty and the priests wore fine linen, this indicates that the Rich Man represents the priesthood. We're also told that the Rich Man had 5 brothers. Levi had 5 brothers. Levi is the head of the Levites which were the tribe of the Priesthood. Why is the beggar named Lazarus? Lazarus is the Greek form of the Hebrew name Eleazar, which means, God Help. Who did God Help? Was it not Jesus? Wasn't the Father with Him and in Him. We're told that Lazarus was covered in sores. Jesus was covered in sores from the lashings. We're told that the dogs licked Lazarus' sores. In the Scriptures Gentiles are referred to as dogs by the Jews. So we have the Rich Man, the Jews, rejecting Lazarus while the dogs, the Gentiles, are accepting Him. Why is Lazarus in Abraham's bosom? Contrary to popular belief, Abraham's bosom is not a location somewhere in the Earth. Abraham's bosom is mentioned in another place in Scripture,

And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the LORD judge between me and thee. (Gen. 16:5 KJV)

We see that being in Abraham's bosom means to be in an intimate relationship with Abraham. So, if Lazarus represents Jesus, what does it mean that He is in Abraham's bosom? It means that Abraham is embracing His long promised seed. The Jewish leadership thought that they were the seed of Abraham and heirs to the promises. While they were the physical seed of Abraham, they weren't the promised seed of Abraham. Jesus was the promised seed of Abraham. Paul tells us,

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (Gal. 3:16 KJV)

So, in this parable we see the long awaited Seed of Abraham being embraced by Abraham, and the Jews, the physical seed, being cast off. They'er suffering in the flame. Since this is Hades and not Gehenna, what is the flame. We can see what it is from several Old Testament prophesies. In the Song of Moses, Moses wrote of what would happen to Israel in the latter days.

18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee.
19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.1
20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.1
23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.
24 They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.1
25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.1 (Deut. 32:18-25 KJV)

Paul quotes from this passage and applies it to his time so we know that's the time period. Notice verse 22. God says a fire is kindled in His anger and it will burn to the lowest Hades. This passage is about judgment in Christ's day. We know that that judgment came in A.D. 70. What we see here is that God's anger is the fire that burns in Hades. The Rich Man, the priesthood, is suffering God's anger in this parable. We have another prophesy of this same event. I'll post a few passages for the sake of space. It's best to read all of Isaiah 28 and 29 to get the full gist of this judgment.

Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!1

2 Behold, the Lord hath a mighty and strong one, which as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand.

3 The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim, shall be trodden under feet:1 (Isa. 28:1-3 KJV)
.
14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.

15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: (Isa. 28:14-15 KJV)

God says Israel will be trodden underfoot. In verse 14 we see that God is addressing the leadership of Israel. However, notice what Israel has said, they had made a covenant with death and are in agreement with Hades. This is their agreement with Rome. He goes on,

Woe to Ariel, to Ariel, the city where David dwelt! add ye year to year; let them kill sacrifices.1
2 Yet I will distress Ariel, and there shall be heaviness and sorrow: and it shall be unto me as Ariel.
3 And I will camp against thee round about, and will lay siege against thee with a mount, and I will raise forts against thee.
4 And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust.1 (Isa. 29:1-4 KJV)

Notice here that God is going to lay siege against Ariel, Jerusalem. This is where the temple and the priesthood are. Remember, God said they were in a covenant with Hades. Hades is the grave. In verse 4 Gods says of the priesthood you shall be brought down, you shall speak out of the dust. The Rich Man who represents the priesthood was in Hades, the dust, speaking out of the ground. Notice also that God says their voice shall be one who has a familiar spirit. We can see this in the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man.

I'm going to stop here as this post is getting long. There is a lot more I could say on this parable. I haven't even touched on Psalm 50 or the book of Malachi which also are mentioned in this parable. The point is that in this parable Jesus is weaving together several Old Testament prophesies that speak of the coming judgement of Israel. These priests who knew the Scriptures well should have seen this.

Sue D. said:

And, of Course, You are Always right. (wrong)

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You could prove me wrong. He could have chosen to prove me wrong. I find it odd that you make these claims and yet don't make the argument to prove me wrong. Where does Scripture teach that a man can live apart from the body. If you or anyone else makes that case, then it's case closed.

If find it disingenuous to use statements like "you are always right" or "no doubt your opinion is important to you" to avoid addressing the subject.

In Gen 2:7 Moses recorded how God created man. He created the man from the dust of the earth and breathed into him the breath of life and the man became a living soul. That teaches us what a man is. All one needs to do is show something similar teaching that a man is not the body but rather is a disembodied consciousness that can shed the body and move on. If that's what the Scriptures teach then it should be easy enough to post that and show how what I've said is wrong. We're saved through faith. Paul lays out an argument in Romans 3-4 teaching how a man is saved through faith not through keeping the Law of Moses. It's a clear teaching. All one needs to do is find a similar teaching that man is something other than a body and that he can move on without the body. It really is that simple/

We go round and round in these threads, you'd think someone would just post the argument, but they don't. Maybe, just maybe, it's not there.

YOU say that dead people can't speak. Well -- then apparently donkeys can't speak , either. But we know that one Did in the Old Testament.

You read Israel into Everything.

You've chosen to refute anything that anyone shares -- IF someone Did 'just post the argument" -- you would find Some reason to refute it.

It IS there -- you won't accept it.

Sue D. said:

YOU say that dead people can't speak. Well -- then apparently donkeys can't speak , either. But we know that one Did in the Old Testament.

You read Israel into Everything.

You've chosen to refute anything that anyone shares -- IF someone Did 'just post the argument" -- you would find Some reason to refute it.

It IS there -- you won't accept it.

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If it could be refuted then it's wrong. I read Israel because it's there. Who did God choose to be His people, the French? The Chinese? The Egyptians? No, He chose Israel. So, the Bible is Israel centric. Paul himself said that salvation was to the Jew first and then the Gentile. He said that believing Gentiles were grafted into Israel. So, yes, I see Israel in Scripture. If one doesn't I have to wonder what they're reading.

I'd be glad to come to Texas and you and I can go to the cemetery of your choosing and see if we can speak to dead people.

@Butch5 -- and your very last sentence is so NOT appreciated. You have No Clue. My husband passed away 1 1/2 yrs. ago. So -- no -- you'd Not be welcome here in Texas. No more conversation 'here' at all.

Sue D. said:

@Butch5 -- and your very last sentence is so NOT appreciated. You have No Clue. My husband passed away 1 1/2 yrs. ago. So -- no -- you'd Not be welcome here in Texas. No more conversation 'here' at all.

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I'm sorry to hear about your husband and sorry for your loss. My statement was just the make a point.

Butch5 said:

That's another reason we know it's a parable. If the brain is dead there are no memories. Without the body there is no thirst.

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As none of us have died, how can we discuss that which we do not know?