Why people leave Christianity

KingJ · Sep 27, 2019

B-A-C said:
God is God.
God in the Bible has told His people to kill women and infants and babies.
God had the first born sons of an entire city (country?) killed by the passover angel.
God rained down fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed two entire cities.
God closed the Red sea over the Egyptians following the Jews and drowned them (they were just following orders)
God opened up the earth and let thousands of people who "alive" and screaming down in sheol (hades).
God caused a flood that drowned all the people on the entire earth (except 7).
God will send scorpions upon men which will sting them and hurt for 5 months.
God will send sores and boils upon men and cause the sun to "scorch" them.
God caused Ananias and Sapphira to fall down dead.
God caused Herod to die and be eaten by worms.
It is God who controls nature.... earthquakes, floods, tornados' hurricanes, volcano's... thousands of people die sometimes because of these things.
The fallen angels in Jude have been imprisoned "as an example" for at least 6,000 years. I suppose in the scheme of eternity, 6,000 years isn't that long.
(I had to wait in line at the DMV for 6,000 years one day!)
There have been dozens of wars and battles in the Bible caused by God. God TOLD the people to do these things.
People have been maimed, killed by bears who mocked a prophet, sen out into the wilderness to eat grass for seven years.
Let Satan kill Job's entire family, all his children and servants in one day.
Teenagers were stoned - simply for being rebellious.
There are dozens more example.
...and yet people think anyone who would do these things is evil. Many people say the God of the Bible is evil.

Satan told Eve... hey even if you do sin "you will not surely die". Satan is telling people that today. God won't punish anybody.
He'll just slap you on the wrist and say "it's OK".
The lake of Fire is not just separation from God.. Millions of people are already separated from God.

People have forgotten what passion means. They have forgotten what love means.
Up until about 50 years ago or so. In Italy if you caught you wife in bed with another man, and you shot one or both of them....
It was about a $50 ticket and a night in jail. People understood love and passion. They didn't think you were a dangerous wacko because you did this.
They thought it was normal. In fact, if you didn't do this... "well then, you must not have loved them very much" obviously they didn't break your heart.
How many people are breaking God's heart?
God isn't evil because gives people what they deserve. This is exactly what makes Him righteous. In fact if He didn't treat the righteous and the evil
differently, He would NOT be a righteous and fair God.

But we have become "cultured, civilized".. we are not barbarians. *snif snif.*
In the meantime relationships are disposable, marriage is meaningless and peoples love has grown cold (even for God).

BAC this is terrible discernment.

You are a Christian. I expect an unsaved person to read these lines ''as is'' and say ''God is God''.

A Christian is supposed to know God. God is GOOD. Not wicked. That is why we give thanks. Psalm 136:1 Give thanks because God is good.

We supposed to know God and explain that ''God only killed the firstborn after He sent nine lessor plagues on Egyptians that were very rebellious and these plagues only came after many warnings''. Or as in the case of the flood. It took Noah 50-120 years to build the ship. The very wicked people had many years to repent. Then a drowning is anywhere from 3-6 minutes with only 10-30 seconds of actual pain.

Dave M · Sep 27, 2019

KingJ said:
You are a Christian. I expect an unsaved person to read these lines ''as is'' and say ''God is God''.

, you sound like a preacher who wants to fill seats
and avoids the truth of the word of God such as the wrath of God.

Brother-Paul · Sep 27, 2019

KingJ said:
You want me to look up ''create'' and apply that to ''evil''?

If we take that verse in isolation to all other scripture, it literally means God is evil.

What we need to do is to ''FIRST'' properly meditate on scripture that defines God. Scripture like 1 John 1:5 God has NO darkness in Him AT ALL or He is RIGHTEOUS in ALL His ways Psalm 145:17. Then when and only when we apply this to a cherry picked verse does ''create evil'' make more sense. He creates the potential for evil to exist. He does not create something evil.

No baby is born evil. You are pushing a Calvinistic belief. Do you also read Rom 9:13 as God showing partiality?

I have to agree with KingJ on this Dave M, NO ONE IS BORN EVIL.

God can punish up to three generations for their sinfulness, but this does not mean they are born evil, punishment is in the living flesh after birth following their sinful and wicked ways.

I will be gentle as I can with this comment, no one is born evil, Hitler, Mussolini, ISIS, Iranian leaders, Syrian leaders, Russian leaders, Chinese leaders, Korean leaders, etc, etc.

No one is born evil BUT, evil can and does enter people, scripture says, satan entered Judas, satan enters all these people, groups, leaders at some stage.

Judas was not born evil, none of us are, Judas was called by Jesus, he was one of the twelve, but then 'satan entered Judas', he can enter any individual, as it did with all the above people and more, as he will in the Tribulation Period. The world calls it radicalisation, it can happen anywhere, even in families, we see it recently with muslim extremists. Many time families of those classed as radicalised are interviewed, they all say, they never used to be like that, they get in with a group, the devil enticed, and they are sitting ducks for satan to 'enter them'

Brother-Paul · Sep 27, 2019

KingJ said:
You are a Christian. I expect an unsaved person to read these lines ''as is'' and say ''God is God''.

A Christian is supposed to know God. God is GOOD. Not wicked. That is why we give thanks. Psalm 136:1 Give thanks because God is good.

Dear brother, we do know God is good, we know God is Love, but do not let these considerations mask all others.

But God is also a loving Father who reprimands his children, is he not, God is also a jealous God, He will forgive sin to all who come to him through Jesus, but God will also punish sin. There is always a price to pay for sin, we can be saved and Jesus paid the price in full for us, or we can reject God, reject Jesus and what he did for us and our sins, but if we do we choose to pay the price our self. The wages of sin is death.

We must not cherry pick scripture brother, God is Good, God is Love, but God will punish those who reject Jesus and continue to sin.

I remember clearly a lovely man, a retired vicar, a gentle man, with a warm smile, he believed God is Love, but he would not accept God will punish anyone, he proclaimed he read the same Bible as myself. If we take the Word of God, as The Truth, which we believe it, are we not expected to take it all from Gen 1:1 to Rev 22:21

Peace be with you

Brother-Paul · Sep 27, 2019

Dave M said:
, you sound like a preacher who wants to fill seats
and avoids the truth of the word of God such as the wrath of God.

I am laughing but at the same time I do feel it sad when people cherry pick scripture.

I appreciate they do so with best intentions, God is Love, God is Good

I have just done a search in the King James Bible

'Wrath is God' comes up 138 times in 30 sections

'Love of God' comes up 166 times in 43 sections

Does that not tell us that the Wrath of God is very important for us to accept.

Bless you

Sue D. · Sep 27, 2019

KingJ said:
You want me to look up ''create'' and apply that to ''evil''?

If we take that verse in isolation to all other scripture, it literally means God is evil.

What we need to do is to ''FIRST'' properly meditate on scripture that defines God. Scripture like 1 John 1:5 God has NO darkness in Him AT ALL or He is RIGHTEOUS in ALL His ways Psalm 145:17. Then when and only when we apply this to a cherry picked verse does ''create evil'' make more sense. He creates the potential for evil to exist. He does not create something evil.

No baby is born evil. You are pushing a Calvinistic belief. Do you also read Rom 9:13 as God showing partiality?

Re: babies being born evil. Because of Adam and Eve eating of the tree of the knowledge of both good and evil -- Everyone is born with the propensity For both good and Evil. Have you ever noticed that even with little babies -- even at 6 months, some babies can show temper. Parents recognize the various cries of their baby's. Hunger, pain, and even anger. Now -- chances are they are 'angry' at whomever is Supposed to be meeting their needs and aren't. But even older babies' as they are with other older babies -- they have to be Taught to 'play nicely'. Don't hit or Don't bite or learning to share their toys. They do not do 'nice' things naturally. An older infant, left to themselves when interacting -- will turn into a brat -- they need to be Taught by a caring person to Be nice. All 'this' is demonstrating the propensity For evil. And I've raised 4 babies. And worked in church nurseries. A nursery worker Works. If it's not feeding, burping and changing diapers -- that's all basic loving taking care of. It in the older nursery -- it's keeping a constant eye on all activity. And - Sometimes - there are babies that are 'stinkers' from 'day one' and ya almost feel sorry for those parents. And Then ya realize that one of the other of Those parent were probably Just Like That at that age.

Why do you bring Calvinism into discussions. Calvinism was brought into existence by a human being John Calvin. His interpretation of Scripture. Same thing with Armenianism. Except I'm thinking that he was responding To Mr. Calvin. But in the opposite direction. Please leave them out of conversations.

Your bring up Romans 9:13 is cherry-picking.

We also have Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" Everyone is Bad.

Romans 6:23a "For the wages of sin is death....." And the penalty is Death. What a mean God. but -- the Rest of the verse reads "but the Gift of God is eternal Life, Through Jesus Christ our Lord." So Now we have God who has given us a Gift -- so now He's a Nice gift-giving Person. But there's a catch -- It's Only obtainable through Jesus Christ our Lord" so it's either God's Way or we Won't enter heaven. We will end up in hell. So - Now 'we' have a Restrictive God. It's HIS or No way. So Now a person has to make a decision -- do we follow God's Way or do we complain about the restrictiveness and want to 'do it Our way'. And THAT is what satan Loves. Our inner instinct is to 'do it My way'. I'd like at least Some of my 'goodness' to help me get into heaven. But Then we learn that our 'goodness' is as filthy rags in God's eyes. Isaiah 64:6 And there goes our nice image of ourselves. So we go Back to God's provision for us Or...... where satan, the beast and the false prophet are going to end up. No Thanks.

B-A-C · Sep 27, 2019

Exod 20:5; You must not bow down to them or worship them, for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God who will not tolerate your affection for any other gods. I lay the sins of the parents upon their children; the entire family is affected—even children in the third and fourth generations of those who reject me.
Exod 34:14; You must worship no other gods, for the LORD, whose very name is Jealous, is a God who is jealous about his relationship with you.
Deut 4:24; The LORD your God is a devouring fire; he is a jealous God.
Deut 5:9; You must not bow down to them or worship them, for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God who will not tolerate your affection for any other gods. I lay the sins of the parents upon their children; the entire family is affected—even children in the third and fourth generations of those who reject me.
Deut 6:15; for the LORD your God, who lives among you, is a jealous God. His anger will flare up against you, and he will wipe you from the face of the earth.
Josh 24:19; Then Joshua warned the people, “You are not able to serve the LORD, for he is a holy and jealous God. He will not forgive your rebellion and your sins.
Nah 1:2; The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and rage. He takes revenge on all who oppose him and continues to rage against his enemies!

Rev 14:10; must drink the wine of God’s anger. It has been poured full strength into God’s cup of wrath. And they will be tormented with fire and burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb.
Ezek 22:31; So now I will pour out my fury on them, consuming them with the fire of my anger. I will heap on their heads the full penalty for all their sins. I, the Sovereign LORD, have spoken!”
Heb 12:29; for our God is a consuming fire.

Brother Paul · Sep 28, 2019

There is a post #45 here that has my name attached. I did not send this post nor is it my reply.

(the real) Brother Paul

hgreen · Sep 28, 2019

KingJ said:
Hard times!

I was drawing up a list of reasons and ranking them, but it is pointless. The truth is that people leave Christianity / lose their faith because they endure difficulties.

You may say 'people desire sin' or 'people are swayed to another religion'. But the truth is that nobody who desires even mortal sin wants to give up Jesus and heaven. Nobody is swayed to another religion if everything is going well for them in Christianity.

People lose their faith, give up on Christianity because they hold grudges against God. Because they are not healed of an ailment or serious injury. Because they are not prosperous. Because they are not able to find a spouse. Because they are unable to escape an abusive home life.

This thread sole purpose is to shout ''ENDURE!!!!'' to these people.

A human is on earth to find Jesus. A Christian is on earth to 1. Serve Jesus and 2. Grow closer to Him through trials and tribulations.

Job endured suffering. Paul the first ''Christian'', endured much suffering.

God will test our devotion to Him. He wants to know just how close we want to be to Him. He wants to know just how close He is able to be with us. Job wears a crown for eternity that reads ''This man was tested with everything the devil could throw at him and remained faithful to the end''. What will ours read?

Paul's sufferings are best explained in 2 Cor 11:22-33 23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft. 24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one. 25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep; 26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren; 27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness. 28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches. 29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not? 30 If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities. 31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not. 32 In Damascus the governor under Aretas the king kept the city of the damascenes with a garrison, desirous to apprehend me: 33 And through a window in a basket was I let down by the wall, and escaped his hands.

Job 1:11-12 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. 12 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord.

I left the faith because of my own sinful, selfishness! I wanted to do things my way, because waiting on God, seemed to take way too long for me, and as a result, I failed, making things hard and worse.

hgreen · Sep 28, 2019

Brother-Paul said:
The result of 'true Christians' entertaining SIN, I think covers all situations.

The devil comes to steal that which God has given us.

Saved believers can fall away, saved believers can steal, saved believers can commit adultery, saved believers can commit the act of homosexuality, saved believers can SIN, saved believers can leave church fellowships as discussed earlier, for internal reasons in the fellowship, for issues at home, spiritual battles occur all the time.

We are to Trust the Lord always, seek His face, we are to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves, we are to put on the whole armour of God, if we don't we can fall away.

The devil seeks like a hungry lion looking for the next person to devour.

There are many reasons even saved believers fall away, illness, mental illness, disabilities, lost a job, marriage break up, etc, they are all distractions that can cause us to wither, lack of food and water, lack of fellowship with saved believers, but not all that appear to have fallen away have actually fallen away.

Lack of trust and patience, and the selfish addittude of feeling that God is taking way too long, and believing your idea is better and faster! Thank God for God's mercy, grace, and forgiveness, and Him not leaving us!

Dave M · Sep 28, 2019

@KingJ I was wondering do you think a changed life is being born again, or can you be born again with out a changed life?

hgreen · Sep 29, 2019

No way, you will be charged! Example, I never liked the Bible, Christian music, showing kindness to people, never hated cigarettes or alcohol, I never hated cussing like I do now! Trust me, you will change!

Brother-Paul · Sep 29, 2019

hgreen said:
Lack of trust and patience, and the selfish addittude of feeling that God is taking way too long, and believing your idea is better and faster! Thank God for God's mercy, grace, and forgiveness, and Him not leaving us!

Proverbs 3:5-6 (NKJV)
Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding;
In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths.

Thank God for God's mercy, grace, and forgiveness, and Him not leaving us! Amen

KingJ · Sep 30, 2019

Dave M said:
, you sound like a preacher who wants to fill seats and avoids the truth of the word of God such as the wrath of God.

The truth about God ''DOES'' fill seats. He ''IS'' a good, loving, kind and merciful God who ''TELLS'' us to love our enemies.

Many miss-read scripture on God's wrath. They quote verses utterly out of context. When they do this, a false picture of God is drawn. One of Him being the personification of evil, warped and a lying chameleon.

It is our JOB to properly represent God to the unsaved. If you cannot properly quote the context of God''s wrath, you are failing at your ONE job and not wielding the word of God with any skill whatsoever.

KingJ · Sep 30, 2019

Brother-Paul said:
Dear brother, we do know God is good, we know God is Love, but do not let these considerations mask all others.

Do you know this? God's love and goodness in its ''pure state''? Do you grasp that God is light with no darkness in Him at all? 1 John 1:5. I don't believe any of us do. We all have some darkness. We mostly teach a wicked and a loving God. When God is only loving. What God does to the wicked is an act of a loving God.

I have explained this before, but I will gladly explain it again.

God's wrath on the wicked in scripture is at follows:

1. Those sold out to wickedness = instant / quick death. Flood = drowning = quick death. Fires of Sodom were high they were burnt quickly. Jews ordered to kill their enemy swiftly, no drawn out torture. Ananias and Sapphira = instant death.

2. Those not sold out to wickedness but opposing Him (Pharaoh) or on their last straw (those in the tribulation) = Plagues at increasing levels of severity.

3. Adam's sin. Corruption of the entire animal kingdom. Hunting dogs killing buck over an hour. Ebola virus.

So, now lets judge them.

1. What person on this planet does not agree with the removing from society those sold out to wickedness? Murderers, rapists etc.
2. God's last ditch attempt to get people into heaven as eternity in heaven is far better then eternity in hell. God really goes the extra hundred miles. He hates seeing people suffer. But He endures it because He knows if they repent they will be with Him. The suffering from plagues in Revelations is cruel and terrible. But we need to grasp it is a part of the seven year tribulation and it is most certainly not eternal. It is for a season and for a valid, crucial, dear reason. God absolutely loves us all and will go to the ends of the earth to do what is necessary to get even the most wicked to be with Him.
3. God hates this. But He endures it. The corruption around us is a constant reminder of evil. God had to create a balance of good and evil to created the perfect setting for free will.

It pleased God to bruise Jesus. Not because ''God wanted to see Jesus suffer''. Because God knew that Jesus would pay the price for our sins and that Him dying this way was the only way. An inevitability for a Lamb to the slaughter.

KingJ · Sep 30, 2019

Dave M said:
@KingJ I was wondering do you think a changed life is being born again, or can you be born again with out a changed life?

You are most definitely a changed person. I recall how I hated my enemies when I was unsaved. Once saved, I loved them. Never repaid eye for an eye. God also loves His enemies. He is not a hypocrite. His nature makes me love mine.

It is because I am a changed person that I better grasp God's wrath. The need to properly represent God.

2 Cor 5:20 So we are Christ’s ambassadors; God is making his appeal through us. We speak for Christ when we plead, “Come back to God!”

Brother-Paul · Sep 30, 2019

KingJ said:
Many miss-read scripture on God's wrath. They quote verses utterly out of context. When they do this, a false picture of God is drawn. One of Him being the personification of evil, warped and a lying chameleon.

It is our JOB to properly represent God to the unsaved. If you cannot properly quote the context of God''s wrath, you are failing at your ONE job and not wielding the word of God with any skill whatsoever.

Dear brother you say.... Many miss-read scripture on God's wrath.

May I also add.... Many mis-read scripture on God's Love.

And as you say many read out of context, which often results in both the above being mis-interpreted and mis-understood.

Brother-Paul · Sep 30, 2019

KingJ said:
Do you know this? God's love and goodness in its ''pure state''? Do you grasp that God is light with no darkness in Him at all? 1 John 1:5. I don't believe any of us do. We all have some darkness. We mostly teach a wicked and a loving God. When God is only loving. What God does to the wicked is an act of a loving God.

So True brother, God is Love, He is a Loving Father.

But a Loving Father also punishes his children when they so wrong, do not do as He says. Especially as we are talking of The Word and Sin.

God is Love, He demonstrated that by allowing His One and Only Son to die for our Sins, the sins of the whole world.

Although God doesn't want any to be lost, He knows they will be. Why? Because of sin, God Hates Sin.

God doesn't want any to be lost, but they must realise how God sees sin, how bad it is, God hates sin, and those who sin have to be punished by Him.

We can come to God through Jesus, repent and accept Jesus paid the price for sins we should pray and be saved, or

We can reject God and His One and Only Son who died for their sins, who paid the price for their sins so they don't have to, providing they repent and accept Jesus. If they reject God, if they reject Jesus, they will have to pay the price for their sins. They will have to answer for every sin, by thought, word and deed, they have chosen that option it was their choice not God's.

God doesn't want any to be lost, so he explains what we must do, he shows us in His Word the benefits and the consequences. We cannot blame God, it is the choice of each individual. Blaming God is similar to being in court for doing something really nasty and saying, it wasn't me it was the devil who told me to do it. We cannot blame the devil who tempts us, sinning is our choice we don't have to do it. We cannot blame God for the consequences of our sins, it is our choice.

Jesus or the world and the devil, it is our choice. Heaven or Hell, it is our choice. We have no one to blame but ourself.

The Word is clear what we need to do to be saved from sin, he tells us the consequences if we don't, is that not what a loving Father does?

KingJ · Sep 30, 2019

Brother-Paul said:
Dear brother you say.... Many miss-read scripture on God's wrath.
May I also add.... Many mis-read scripture on God's Love.
And as you say many read out of context, which often results in both the above being mis-interpreted and mis-understood.

I don't agree.

God is love, full-stop. Anything you read outside of 1 John 4:8 needs to be read in the light of 1 John 4:8.

KingJ · Sep 30, 2019

Brother-Paul said:
So True brother, God is Love, He is a Loving Father.

But a Loving Father also punishes his children when they so wrong, do not do as He says. Especially as we are talking of The Word and Sin.

God is Love, He demonstrated that by allowing His One and Only Son to die for our Sins, the sins of the whole world.

Although God doesn't want any to be lost, He knows they will be. Why? Because of sin, God Hates Sin.

God doesn't want any to be lost, but they must realise how God sees sin, how bad it is, God hates sin, and those who sin have to be punished by Him.

We can come to God through Jesus, repent and accept Jesus paid the price for sins we should pray and be saved, or

We can reject God and His One and Only Son who died for their sins, who paid the price for their sins so they don't have to, providing they repent and accept Jesus. If they reject God, if they reject Jesus, they will have to pay the price for their sins. They will have to answer for every sin, by thought, word and deed, they have chosen that option it was their choice not God's.

God doesn't want any to be lost, so he explains what we must do, he shows us in His Word the benefits and the consequences. We cannot blame God, it is the choice of each individual. Blaming God is similar to being in court for doing something really nasty and saying, it wasn't me it was the devil who told me to do it. We cannot blame the devil who tempts us, sinning is our choice we don't have to do it.

Jesus or the world and the devil, it is our choice. Heaven or Hell, it is our choice. We have no one to blame but ourself.

The Word is clear what we need to do to be saved from sin, he tells us the consequences if we don't, is that not what a loving Father does?

I am in full agreement with you here. I just want to say that the unsaved are not His children. He does not punish His children. Only chastizes and tests them.

Brother-Paul said:
We cannot blame God for the consequences of our sins, it is our choice.

If the consequences of sin are worse then the sin committed or the works of a wicked being, we do have a case to raise with God. I serve God because He is good Psalm 136:1. If I suddenly discover in heaven that He has a wicked and demented side to Him that desires torturing the wicked in hell for all eternity as some suggest, Him and I are going to be at odds. But I know this is not the case. We simply have many who cannot wield the word of God and properly represent Him.

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