THE CURRENT HEAVEN
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Brother-Paul
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Thank you for your post Dave.
Thank you also for listing the scriptures relating to the Current Heaven being physical, which is inline with what Randy Alcorn says in his book called, 'Heaven'
It is important we keep an open mind on the topic we are studying together, hence the reason we are now starting to look at the Current Heaven form a spiritual point of view, which is not following the pattern by Randy Alcorn for a physical Current Heaven, but is in accordance with scripture, we therefore must consider both the physical and spiritual considerations. That said, what we now discuss, in no way argues against what Randy has included in his book, because there are many areas we will no doubt all agree with at the end of this study, and many ways we are still unsure, some may read more physical, some may read more spiritual, some may seem to be either.
Is it possible to add a pol at any stage in a thread?
I have avoided 2 Cor 12:3 to some extent to allow the discussions to move forward, but as it has been raised again let us look at it in more detail.
2 Corinthians 12:2-4 (NKJV)
2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a one was caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I know such a man--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows--
4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
I find these verses very interesting, firstly we do not know when this writing relates to, could it have been during the three days he lay without sight, at his conversion. It seems very probable but we cannot be sure. We know it states 14 years ago, this would mean at the time of penning this it would be around 10-11 years after Christ's Resurrection.
But what is clear, is that when he was caught up into the third heaven, God's abode, and he was so overwhelmed by it that, he didn't know whether he was in a physical body or a spiritual body.
We also are left to wonder
.
Thank you also for listing the scriptures relating to the Current Heaven being physical, which is inline with what Randy Alcorn says in his book called, 'Heaven'
It is important we keep an open mind on the topic we are studying together, hence the reason we are now starting to look at the Current Heaven form a spiritual point of view, which is not following the pattern by Randy Alcorn for a physical Current Heaven, but is in accordance with scripture, we therefore must consider both the physical and spiritual considerations. That said, what we now discuss, in no way argues against what Randy has included in his book, because there are many areas we will no doubt all agree with at the end of this study, and many ways we are still unsure, some may read more physical, some may read more spiritual, some may seem to be either.
Is it possible to add a pol at any stage in a thread?
I have avoided 2 Cor 12:3 to some extent to allow the discussions to move forward, but as it has been raised again let us look at it in more detail.
2 Corinthians 12:2-4 (NKJV)
2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a one was caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I know such a man--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows--
4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
I find these verses very interesting, firstly we do not know when this writing relates to, could it have been during the three days he lay without sight, at his conversion. It seems very probable but we cannot be sure. We know it states 14 years ago, this would mean at the time of penning this it would be around 10-11 years after Christ's Resurrection.
But what is clear, is that when he was caught up into the third heaven, God's abode, and he was so overwhelmed by it that, he didn't know whether he was in a physical body or a spiritual body.
We also are left to wonder
.
Dave M
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hey @Brother-Paul did you receive my PM
Brother-Paul
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Sorry Dave... I better have a look
Brother-Paul
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Following on with our study, we are looking at the Current Heaven and whether or not we will be spiritual beings or physical beings.
We have looked together at the physical possibilities and now we look at the spiritual possibilities.
Do saved believers go directly to heaven when we die?
Ecclesiastes 12:7 and Genesis 3:19 refer to the fact we were created from the dust of the earth and will return back to the dust of the earth.
When god created Adam he created first his body, then breathed into him the breath of life, the Life giving Spirit, the Spirit of God. Every human being is made up of body with spirit; the body only has a soul when God adds the life giving spirit.
Jesus' last words on the cross were, 'father, into your hands I commit my SPIRIT'
His earthly body, being born of Mary by the Power of the Holy Spirit, had to die as He had taken upon Himself the sins of the whole world. As we know Jesus' body didn't return to the earth as He was from God, His Spirit had to return to Heaven first. It was only after His bodily resurrection that He received His glorious body, like the one we will have on the New Heaven/New Earth.
Luke 23:44-46 (NKJV)
44 Now it was about the sixth hour, and there was darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.
45 Then the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was torn in two.
46 And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said,
"Father, 'into Your hands I commit My spirit.' " Having said this, He breathed His last.
When saved believers die our bodies go back to the dust of the earth, (this is our first death) and our spirits and soul go back to God. Paul did not say that the soul went to sleep at death. He made it clear that the soul of the believer went to be with the Lord:
1 Thessalonians 4:14 (KJV)
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
He cannot bring them when He returns unless they are with Him. It is not the soul that sleeps; it is the body.
The Bible definition of death is the body without spirit.
James 2:26 (NKJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
At death, the spirit leaves the body, and the body goes to sleep and no longer functions. The soul-spirit goes to be with the Lord, if the person is saved and has trusted Jesus Christ.
Paul confirms we are confident, yes...
2 Corinthians 5:1-8 (NKJV)
1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven,
3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked.
4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.
5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.
7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
There is a natural body and also a spiritual body, we are sown in corruption, to be raised at the resurrection in, incorruption, in glory, and in power.
Adam was created from the dust of the earth, Jesus is the life giving spirit.
1 Cor 5:35-49
35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?”
36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies.
37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain.
38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.
43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.”The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.
47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
We look to Christ and the New Testament for the complete revelation concerning death.
2 Timothy 1:10 (KJV)
10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel
These scripture seem to clearly show that the Current Heaven is a spiritual place.
Having now concluded the study as to whether the Current Heaven is physical or spiritual, would you say it is probably both.
Our Lord was raised and returned to heaven with His physical body, Elijah and Moses came from heaven and stood and talked with our Lord at the Transfiguration, then returned to heaven, would it seems they too had physical bodies.
There are souls of martyrs in heaven, beneath the alter, which really does confirms that souls do return to heaven with the spirit
Revelation 6:9 (NKJV)
Fifth Seal: The Cry of the Martyrs
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
And the martyrs cried out, which refers to them being able to talk
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
It is amazing, I think, how much information there is regarding the Current Heaven, I certainly didn’t expect us to have as much to say, and all confirmed by scripture.
Remaining in the Current Heaven let us now move to the Rapture which is probably sooner than some may think.
When Jesus returns and we meet with Him in the air, will we be spirits or will we be physical? Please share your thoughts and verses.
Blessings \o/ \o/ \o/
Brother-Paul
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As some of you know, I went fishing yesterday with our Lord. It was a lovely sunny day, the birds were flying around and whistling away, the swallows and swifts darting along the surface of the water for midges, It was such a peaceful day fishing with the Lord, we chatted about lots of things, although I did most of the talking, I wasn't here today just for the fish, I had questions in my heart, I was fishing with the Lord in more ways than one today. Did I catch fish, I certainly did, but that was not the main part of the day, just being with the Lord was everything.
I started to ponder this topic, the Current Heaven, I had concerns in my heart, I knew this was a subject rarely touched, most commentators and preachers talk of Heaven only as the Eternal Life, but why when we have all least two thousand years with the Current Heaven. If our loved ones have gone to be with the Lord, providing they are saved, shouldn't we want to know what the Current Heaven is like. I think so, I certainly do and none of my family for at least three generations are saved.
I reminded our Lord that I didn't expect to start this topic, I had little knowledge of the Current Heaven until I read the book 'Heaven' by Randy Alcorn. Most I had heard in the past was that it was a spirit place with God, Jesus, the angels etc, until the Eternal Heaven/Eternal Earth, New Heaven/New Earth. Many times during the topic I have prayed for guidance as it seemed to draw me into the unknown, I am just being honest here. I have to admit though as we have progressed together in the study, I have learnt things I didn't know, I do hope you all have too.
In his book Randy speaks so positively about the Current Heaven and it being a Physical place, or partly physical and partly spiritual. He quotes scripture to back up everything he says, it is an excellent book for sure, it is certainly a book I would recommend to all, but then we moved on with our study to the Spiritual Current Heaven and look at
Man was made by God, He made the Body first then He breathed into him the life giving Spirit and man was complete with a soul.
Genesis 2:7 (NKJV)
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 (NKJV)
7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
Genesis 3:19 (NKJV)
19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return."
Therefore when man dies, his body goes back to the dust of the earth; this applies to all bodies, saved and unsaved.
But the spirit and soul of the Saved goes to the Current Heaven to God, to be with Jesus, with the Heavenly host,
When God made the body it was in stages, first he made the body from the dust of the earth, then the next stage He breathed into it the Spirit of life, it was only when the spirit was added that the body was whole and included the soul, therefore the spirit and the soul return to God when we die.
- The Saved believer when they die, the spirit and soul goes and remains with God.
- The unsaved, unbeliever when they die, the spirit goes to the Current, Temporary Hell. We do not know if the soul goes to God.
This has happened to the current day, and will continue to happen until the Rapture.
So on the basis of these scriptures, up to the present time, it appears we will be spirits in the Current Heaven.
We are starting to get a better picture, in the Current Heaven, at the current time, we will be spirits, but also that in the Current Heaven there is a least one physical Body, that of our Lord Jesus Christ.
When Jesus died on the cross for us, for our sins, He gave up His Spirit
Luke 23:44-46 (NKJV)
44 Now it was about the sixth hour, and there was darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.
45 Then the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was torn in two.
46 And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said,
"Father, 'into Your hands I commit My spirit.' " Having said this, He breathed His last
We know the body without the spirit is dead, we saw this when God made Adam, he was dead until God breathed into him the Life giving spirit.
James 2:26 (NKJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead
So for me, at this point, these verses are saying the Current Heaven is spiritual, except Jesus who had a physical body after His resurrection, and ascended to Heaven with a physical body.
But I am struggling to see the connection between the physical and the spiritual, whether we will have spiritual or physical bodies in the Current Heaven. Randy Acorn in his book, Heaven, clearly shows scripture backing up the argument we will have physical bodies, but other scripture just mentioned points to us having spiritual bodies in the Current Heaven. Which is right? Which will we have? Lord Help!
Scripture never lies, God cannot lie. so there has to be a connection, there has to be an answer.
In our study we looked at the human body, that the body is from the dust of the earth and will return to the dust of the earth. We also saw, as just mentioned that when we die the spirit, our spirit, 'goes back to God.' So what happens to the soul? As we progressed in the study, it was suggested that the soul (of Saved believers) must also go back to be with God, as the body was created from the earth, God added the Spirit of Life and at that point the body was complete, it included a soul.
It is interesting also that when I was looking up the Jewish views regarding abortion a few weeks ago, the Jews do not consider the life to be complete until the baby is born and it breaths in that breath of life as with Adam and Eve. This is another topic not to expand on here, we are looking at the complete body, when it recieves the spirit and the soul.
Then I included this scripture, which I now feel is a key in more ways than one.
Revelation 6:9 (NKJV)
Fifth Seal: The Cry of the Martyrs
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held
Here we have confirmation that the souls are definitely in the Current Heaven, scripture clearly shown us in this verse. The body of the person who dies goes to earth and the spirit and soul go to The Current Heaven.
Brilliant we might say, but my heart is not at peace with this. Randy's Book on the Heaven, the Current Heaven, states a lot more and refers to us having physical bodies. Lets keep to the above scripture but add a little more, it is always wise to read more, to read on.
Here Randy is pointing out that the martyrs 'cried out', spirits cannot cry out? He also points out they ask God a question, How long O Lord...
Revelation 6:9-11 (NKJV)
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
So as I left this study and went fishing with the Lord yesterday, my heart was troubled; will we have physical bodies in the Current Heaven, or will we have spiritual bodies, scripture confirms both, Help Lord please.
The more I asked Him to make it clear what type of bodies we will have in the Current Heaven, the more I was brought back to these verses, and one word was put clearly on my heart, Rev 6:9 'souls'
Now I must lay this at your feet, brothers and sisters in Christ, please pray, What John saw was not the spirit of martyrs, what John saw was real martyrs. Real martyrs (physical martyrs) who 'cried out' and as we see they asked God questions.
My heart remained on this word 'Soul' or 'Souls', I still have things on my heart but I was at peace as the Lord directed me to this word. I woke up in the early hours and again this verse came to me, 'souls' so before adding this message today I looked up the meaning of the Greek word.
Greek Word: ψυχή
Transliteration: psychē
Phonetic Pronunciation:psoo-khay'
Root: from <G5594>
Cross Reference: TDNT - 9:608,1342
English Words used in KJV:
soul 58
life 40
mind 3
heart 1
heartily + <G1537> 1
not tr 2
[Total Count: 105]
The 'soul' is the 'immortal' part of the 'body'. which the above Greek word refers to 58 times for soul and 40 times for life.
What John actually saw was the living souls of the martyrs. Praise the Lord.
The word soul is so often misunderstood in the world, I will share below from memory what was said in an operating theatre by lost souls, regarding the soul.
The surgeon, cut open the body of a patient, having done so he called out to other surgeons and the theatre staff, come look he said, I have opened the body of this person, I cannot see the soul can you? They all looked and laughed. Such fools if they cannot see the spirit how should they think they can see the soul.
So if the 'soul' is the 'immortal part' of the 'body', as we see it is, and every soul is different, each one of us is a unique person, is it not feasible that our souls, with spirits in the Current Heaven should not look like us? Your soul is you, my soul is me, our souls are us, linked with our spirit we are physical looking replica's in the image of God,
I come before the body of Christ, the Bride of Christ, the One True Church, Saved believers in Christ Jesus, (our Part of the One True Church at Talk Jesus), and ask you ponder these things in your heart, lifting all prayers to the Father, through Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour and bringing Him the Glory.
Please do comment, for me, I see the spirit and soul as one in the Current Heaven, I also see the spiritual and physical come together, they belong together, they will always be together, ready for the Resurrection, the New Heaven/New Earth and our glorious new bodies.
No wonder Paul said...
2 Corinthians 12:2-4 (NKJV)
2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a one was caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I know such a man--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows--
4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Paul confirms we are confident, yes well please
2 Corinthians 5:8 (NKJV)
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
To God be the Glory always, thank you for your Eternal Word, for your Word is Truth, In Jesus precious Name we pray. Amen
I started to ponder this topic, the Current Heaven, I had concerns in my heart, I knew this was a subject rarely touched, most commentators and preachers talk of Heaven only as the Eternal Life, but why when we have all least two thousand years with the Current Heaven. If our loved ones have gone to be with the Lord, providing they are saved, shouldn't we want to know what the Current Heaven is like. I think so, I certainly do and none of my family for at least three generations are saved.
I reminded our Lord that I didn't expect to start this topic, I had little knowledge of the Current Heaven until I read the book 'Heaven' by Randy Alcorn. Most I had heard in the past was that it was a spirit place with God, Jesus, the angels etc, until the Eternal Heaven/Eternal Earth, New Heaven/New Earth. Many times during the topic I have prayed for guidance as it seemed to draw me into the unknown, I am just being honest here. I have to admit though as we have progressed together in the study, I have learnt things I didn't know, I do hope you all have too.
In his book Randy speaks so positively about the Current Heaven and it being a Physical place, or partly physical and partly spiritual. He quotes scripture to back up everything he says, it is an excellent book for sure, it is certainly a book I would recommend to all, but then we moved on with our study to the Spiritual Current Heaven and look at
Man was made by God, He made the Body first then He breathed into him the life giving Spirit and man was complete with a soul.
Genesis 2:7 (NKJV)
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 (NKJV)
7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
Genesis 3:19 (NKJV)
19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return."
Therefore when man dies, his body goes back to the dust of the earth; this applies to all bodies, saved and unsaved.
But the spirit and soul of the Saved goes to the Current Heaven to God, to be with Jesus, with the Heavenly host,
When God made the body it was in stages, first he made the body from the dust of the earth, then the next stage He breathed into it the Spirit of life, it was only when the spirit was added that the body was whole and included the soul, therefore the spirit and the soul return to God when we die.
- The Saved believer when they die, the spirit and soul goes and remains with God.
- The unsaved, unbeliever when they die, the spirit goes to the Current, Temporary Hell. We do not know if the soul goes to God.
This has happened to the current day, and will continue to happen until the Rapture.
So on the basis of these scriptures, up to the present time, it appears we will be spirits in the Current Heaven.
We are starting to get a better picture, in the Current Heaven, at the current time, we will be spirits, but also that in the Current Heaven there is a least one physical Body, that of our Lord Jesus Christ.
When Jesus died on the cross for us, for our sins, He gave up His Spirit
Luke 23:44-46 (NKJV)
44 Now it was about the sixth hour, and there was darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.
45 Then the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was torn in two.
46 And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said,
"Father, 'into Your hands I commit My spirit.' " Having said this, He breathed His last
We know the body without the spirit is dead, we saw this when God made Adam, he was dead until God breathed into him the Life giving spirit.
James 2:26 (NKJV)
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead
So for me, at this point, these verses are saying the Current Heaven is spiritual, except Jesus who had a physical body after His resurrection, and ascended to Heaven with a physical body.
But I am struggling to see the connection between the physical and the spiritual, whether we will have spiritual or physical bodies in the Current Heaven. Randy Acorn in his book, Heaven, clearly shows scripture backing up the argument we will have physical bodies, but other scripture just mentioned points to us having spiritual bodies in the Current Heaven. Which is right? Which will we have? Lord Help!
Scripture never lies, God cannot lie. so there has to be a connection, there has to be an answer.
In our study we looked at the human body, that the body is from the dust of the earth and will return to the dust of the earth. We also saw, as just mentioned that when we die the spirit, our spirit, 'goes back to God.' So what happens to the soul? As we progressed in the study, it was suggested that the soul (of Saved believers) must also go back to be with God, as the body was created from the earth, God added the Spirit of Life and at that point the body was complete, it included a soul.
It is interesting also that when I was looking up the Jewish views regarding abortion a few weeks ago, the Jews do not consider the life to be complete until the baby is born and it breaths in that breath of life as with Adam and Eve. This is another topic not to expand on here, we are looking at the complete body, when it recieves the spirit and the soul.
Then I included this scripture, which I now feel is a key in more ways than one.
Revelation 6:9 (NKJV)
Fifth Seal: The Cry of the Martyrs
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held
Here we have confirmation that the souls are definitely in the Current Heaven, scripture clearly shown us in this verse. The body of the person who dies goes to earth and the spirit and soul go to The Current Heaven.
Brilliant we might say, but my heart is not at peace with this. Randy's Book on the Heaven, the Current Heaven, states a lot more and refers to us having physical bodies. Lets keep to the above scripture but add a little more, it is always wise to read more, to read on.
Here Randy is pointing out that the martyrs 'cried out', spirits cannot cry out? He also points out they ask God a question, How long O Lord...
Revelation 6:9-11 (NKJV)
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
So as I left this study and went fishing with the Lord yesterday, my heart was troubled; will we have physical bodies in the Current Heaven, or will we have spiritual bodies, scripture confirms both, Help Lord please.
The more I asked Him to make it clear what type of bodies we will have in the Current Heaven, the more I was brought back to these verses, and one word was put clearly on my heart, Rev 6:9 'souls'
Now I must lay this at your feet, brothers and sisters in Christ, please pray, What John saw was not the spirit of martyrs, what John saw was real martyrs. Real martyrs (physical martyrs) who 'cried out' and as we see they asked God questions.
My heart remained on this word 'Soul' or 'Souls', I still have things on my heart but I was at peace as the Lord directed me to this word. I woke up in the early hours and again this verse came to me, 'souls' so before adding this message today I looked up the meaning of the Greek word.
Greek Word: ψυχή
Transliteration: psychē
Phonetic Pronunciation:psoo-khay'
Root: from <G5594>
Cross Reference: TDNT - 9:608,1342
English Words used in KJV:
soul 58
life 40
mind 3
heart 1
heartily + <G1537> 1
not tr 2
[Total Count: 105]
The 'soul' is the 'immortal' part of the 'body'. which the above Greek word refers to 58 times for soul and 40 times for life.
What John actually saw was the living souls of the martyrs. Praise the Lord.
The word soul is so often misunderstood in the world, I will share below from memory what was said in an operating theatre by lost souls, regarding the soul.
The surgeon, cut open the body of a patient, having done so he called out to other surgeons and the theatre staff, come look he said, I have opened the body of this person, I cannot see the soul can you? They all looked and laughed. Such fools if they cannot see the spirit how should they think they can see the soul.
So if the 'soul' is the 'immortal part' of the 'body', as we see it is, and every soul is different, each one of us is a unique person, is it not feasible that our souls, with spirits in the Current Heaven should not look like us? Your soul is you, my soul is me, our souls are us, linked with our spirit we are physical looking replica's in the image of God,
I come before the body of Christ, the Bride of Christ, the One True Church, Saved believers in Christ Jesus, (our Part of the One True Church at Talk Jesus), and ask you ponder these things in your heart, lifting all prayers to the Father, through Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour and bringing Him the Glory.
Please do comment, for me, I see the spirit and soul as one in the Current Heaven, I also see the spiritual and physical come together, they belong together, they will always be together, ready for the Resurrection, the New Heaven/New Earth and our glorious new bodies.
No wonder Paul said...
2 Corinthians 12:2-4 (NKJV)
2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a one was caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I know such a man--whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows--
4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Paul confirms we are confident, yes well please
2 Corinthians 5:8 (NKJV)
8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
To God be the Glory always, thank you for your Eternal Word, for your Word is Truth, In Jesus precious Name we pray. Amen
B-A-C
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This may seem a little abstract, and perhaps even off topic, but bear with me, and I will do my best to tie all of this back to... the current heaven.
Many churches I have been believe there was once two places you go when you die. This was before Jesus died. No one went to heaven before Jesus died.
(a couple possible exceptions may be Elijah and Enoch)
There is a place called Sheol, one side of sheol was called hades, hell, gehenna. The other side of sheol was called paradise or Abraham's bosom.
A lot of this comes from Luke 16.
Luke 16:22; "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
Luke 16:23; "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:24; "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'
Luke 16:25; "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
Luke 16:26; 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'
Luke 16:27; "And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house—
It seems in this story the people in Hades and the people in paradise could see each other and talk to each other. It seems there was a great chasm between the two places.
There was a thread a while back here on TalkJesus, about does Paradise/Abraham's bosom still exist. The thought is, when Jesus died, a lot of things happened.
But before He died, no one went to heaven.
John 3:13; "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
Acts 2:34; "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
Jesus told the thief on the cross...
Luke 23:43; And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."
Out of 16 Bible translations I have, not a single one uses the word "heaven" here, they all say Paradise.
2 Corinthians 12 is difficult because...
2 Cor 12:2; I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven.
2 Cor 12:3; And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows—
2 Cor 12:4; was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.
Verse 2 says "the 3rd heaven", but verse 4 says "Paradise". So are they the same place, or two different places?
When Jesus died, He went to the tabernacle in heaven and sprinkled His own blood on the mercy seat in heaven. (This could be an entire thread in itself)
Heb 12:24; and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.
Heb 10:4; For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
The thought here is, when Jesus died, and it made it possible for men to go to heaven, he went to "Paradise" and led all of the saints who were "captives" there to heaven.
Eph 4:8; Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."
Eph 4:9; (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10; He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)
... so all of this to say... Many believe that we no longer "Rock'a my soul in the bosom of Abraham"
but now go to heaven.
2 Cor 5:8; we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
... the "current" heaven. (see, I told you I would make it back).
Many churches I have been believe there was once two places you go when you die. This was before Jesus died. No one went to heaven before Jesus died.
(a couple possible exceptions may be Elijah and Enoch)
There is a place called Sheol, one side of sheol was called hades, hell, gehenna. The other side of sheol was called paradise or Abraham's bosom.
A lot of this comes from Luke 16.
Luke 16:22; "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
Luke 16:23; "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:24; "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'
Luke 16:25; "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
Luke 16:26; 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'
Luke 16:27; "And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house—
It seems in this story the people in Hades and the people in paradise could see each other and talk to each other. It seems there was a great chasm between the two places.
There was a thread a while back here on TalkJesus, about does Paradise/Abraham's bosom still exist. The thought is, when Jesus died, a lot of things happened.
But before He died, no one went to heaven.
John 3:13; "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
Acts 2:34; "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
Jesus told the thief on the cross...
Luke 23:43; And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."
Out of 16 Bible translations I have, not a single one uses the word "heaven" here, they all say Paradise.
2 Corinthians 12 is difficult because...
2 Cor 12:2; I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a man was caught up to the third heaven.
2 Cor 12:3; And I know how such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows—
2 Cor 12:4; was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.
Verse 2 says "the 3rd heaven", but verse 4 says "Paradise". So are they the same place, or two different places?
When Jesus died, He went to the tabernacle in heaven and sprinkled His own blood on the mercy seat in heaven. (This could be an entire thread in itself)
Heb 12:24; and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.
Heb 10:4; For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
The thought here is, when Jesus died, and it made it possible for men to go to heaven, he went to "Paradise" and led all of the saints who were "captives" there to heaven.
Eph 4:8; Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."
Eph 4:9; (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10; He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)
... so all of this to say... Many believe that we no longer "Rock'a my soul in the bosom of Abraham"
but now go to heaven.
2 Cor 5:8; we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
... the "current" heaven. (see, I told you I would make it back).
Brother-Paul
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Thank you B-A-C for a great post it all helps fill the gaps and broaden the picture we have from scripture.
The question we have now come to is, having read the scriptures that the Current Heaven refers to physical bodies, and the ones that point to the Current Heaven being spiritual, which is right, scripture doesn't lie so they are both right. So when John saw physical bodies in the Current Heaven, that spoke, that cried out, that asked God questions, could they have been living souls of the martyrs?
When comparing these scriptures with what Paul said about being 'in the body' or 'out of the body' he did not know, could that also be living souls he was referring to?
Post #66 above includes the definition of the Greek word used for soul in the verse, meaning soul and life, soul being the immortal part of the body, life being God given.
Fellowship together with other saved souls, along with prayer and study in the presence of our Lord is so important, we have it all here together on TJ, PTL.
The question we have now come to is, having read the scriptures that the Current Heaven refers to physical bodies, and the ones that point to the Current Heaven being spiritual, which is right, scripture doesn't lie so they are both right. So when John saw physical bodies in the Current Heaven, that spoke, that cried out, that asked God questions, could they have been living souls of the martyrs?
When comparing these scriptures with what Paul said about being 'in the body' or 'out of the body' he did not know, could that also be living souls he was referring to?
Post #66 above includes the definition of the Greek word used for soul in the verse, meaning soul and life, soul being the immortal part of the body, life being God given.
Fellowship together with other saved souls, along with prayer and study in the presence of our Lord is so important, we have it all here together on TJ, PTL.
Dave M
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This is great and I agree with it, I had the privilege of showing a brother in Christ something very similar to what you are saying. He is a dear freind, who was instrumental in getting me out of the catholic religion, but he himself still believed we still went to AB, , and through or bible study together I was able to show him that is not where we go any longer what a privilege the lord gave me that day. Just for the record the man I speak of has shown me a lot more then I have him.
When peoples hearts are right with obedience is when great revelation takes place IMO.
Brother-Paul
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Thank you for this post brother, well presented and very clear, as always from yourself my friend.
Can I also share this link, we discussed in another thread a few days ago the word 'Love' and how in the west we use one word for all variations of love. In this link, which includes a lot of what you say, Don Stewart explains the different meaning of words in scripture we read as hell. It is so important to understand this and check the meaning of words in scripture, after all our Bibles are but translations.
The link is from the BlueLetterBible website.
What Is the Place of the Punishment of the Wicked? (Hell)
If the soul, or spirit, of humans lives on, it must live somewhere. If they are going to suffer punishment for their sins, then this punishment must happen
www.blueletterbible.org
Bless you
Brother-Paul
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Just to sum up where we are up to, as we didn't conclude with scripture what happens to the unbelievers soul at the first death with scripture.
When a saved believer dies, their body goes to the earth, their spirit and soul go to God, this side of the Rapture into the Current Heaven.
When John was called up into the Current Heaven, he saw physical people, who could call out and even ask God questions, Randy Alcorn in his book called Heaven, talks about the physical current heaven in detail, quoting scripture for every item he lists, but as we read scripture we also see the they point to the fact the Current Heaven is spiritual, with only the spirits and souls of saved believers going to heaven at first death. We looked at the scripture verses of the two options and they both appear to be correct, but how can one be physical and the other be spirit and soul? Scripture does not lie. We then looked at the word soul in Greek which referred to a 'living soul'. This left us with the consideration that what John saw in the physical could have actually been 'living souls'. We cannot be sure but the description and word meaning for soul does appear to point to this as a feasible answer.
We now leave this part of the study, but before moving on, we do we need to conclude what happens to the soul when an unbeliever dies the first death, we didn't include scripture to confirm this in past notes. Scripture confirms that their body goes back to the dust of the earth like the believers, but their spirit and soul go to the current, temporary Hell. Here is the scripture confirming what happens to the soul.
Ezekiel 18:20 (NKJV)
20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
We now enter the last stages of the Current Heaven and this is one that will be influenced by peoples understanding of scripture.
What we need to consider next is when will the Rapture take place, pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation or at the end of the Great Tribulation when Christ Returns in Glory, defeats the devil and makes all things new.
Your comments are welcome, please try include scripture to confirm when you think the Rapture will occur.
The only area left for us to consider in the Current Heaven period is from the Rapture to Christ's Final Return.
In this period, will there be physical bodies, spiritual bodies and souls or both?
When a saved believer dies, their body goes to the earth, their spirit and soul go to God, this side of the Rapture into the Current Heaven.
When John was called up into the Current Heaven, he saw physical people, who could call out and even ask God questions, Randy Alcorn in his book called Heaven, talks about the physical current heaven in detail, quoting scripture for every item he lists, but as we read scripture we also see the they point to the fact the Current Heaven is spiritual, with only the spirits and souls of saved believers going to heaven at first death. We looked at the scripture verses of the two options and they both appear to be correct, but how can one be physical and the other be spirit and soul? Scripture does not lie. We then looked at the word soul in Greek which referred to a 'living soul'. This left us with the consideration that what John saw in the physical could have actually been 'living souls'. We cannot be sure but the description and word meaning for soul does appear to point to this as a feasible answer.
We now leave this part of the study, but before moving on, we do we need to conclude what happens to the soul when an unbeliever dies the first death, we didn't include scripture to confirm this in past notes. Scripture confirms that their body goes back to the dust of the earth like the believers, but their spirit and soul go to the current, temporary Hell. Here is the scripture confirming what happens to the soul.
Ezekiel 18:20 (NKJV)
20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
We now enter the last stages of the Current Heaven and this is one that will be influenced by peoples understanding of scripture.
What we need to consider next is when will the Rapture take place, pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation or at the end of the Great Tribulation when Christ Returns in Glory, defeats the devil and makes all things new.
Your comments are welcome, please try include scripture to confirm when you think the Rapture will occur.
The only area left for us to consider in the Current Heaven period is from the Rapture to Christ's Final Return.
In this period, will there be physical bodies, spiritual bodies and souls or both?
Curtis
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Col 1:12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light.
Col 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,
Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Php 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
Php 3:21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.
Col 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,
Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Php 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,
Php 3:21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.
B-A-C
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This kind of goes with another old thread about "what is the resurrection, and when does it happen?
The book of John in particular talks about the resurrection... on the "last day"
John 6:39; "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
John 6:40; "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
John 6:44; "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:54; "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 11:24; Martha *said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."
John 12:48; "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
Christ Tomlin had a popular song a few years ago... the lyrics said "I will rise when He calls my name".
This is very controversial, and it seems this has caused division in the church over the years.
But what exactly is the "last day"?
1 Thes 4:16; For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
Some say it means the "last day of your life".
Some it means the rapture of second coming of Jesus - 1 Thes 4:16; seems to support that the "dead in Christ" won't rise until this time.
John 5:28; "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29; and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
Jesus said "an hour" is coming, not many hours for many people. This seems to indicate that everyone will rise at same time, the same instant.
There is further division over what this means. What does it mean to "rise", or to be resurrected?
Some people believe in "soul sleep". The soul stays in the ground until it is "called to rise". Perhaps it is still in Abraham's Bosom?
The argument with 2 Cor 5:8; is these people you are still present with your current body, you aren't absent from it yet.
The flip side of this is spiritism. People take many of the verses Curtis posted in the previous message, and say we are "already in heaven".
This is the only heaven there is. That believe Christians don't need to go to heaven. They are already there.
I personally hope this isn't the case. Heaven is a bit of a dissapointment. I thought there would be no more tears, pain, or sorrow there.
But also, the Bible says some people will be removed "out of" the kingdom of heaven. (The parable of the net/bad fish, and the parable of the wheat and tares, and the parable of the tree that refused to bear fruit for example).
Another thought here is... I might be an American citizen, and my citizenship might be in the US, but that doesn't mean I currently reside in the US.
The 3rd and probably most common perspective here is, only the spirit/soul goes to heaven immediately, and the body gets resurrected later.
The main argument against this.. is that our current body does not get resurrected, but we get a new "spiritual" body. ( 1 Cor 15 )
There are several verses that say our old fleshly body returns to the dust from which it came. (Mostly in the old testament)
So this likely raises more questions than answers... but it does pertain to "the current heaven" and whether anyone besides God is ther yet. Also are they only there in Spirit, or in body also?
Some other verses to consider...
1 Cor 15:52; in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
Gen 3:19; By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."
Job 34:15; All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust.
Psa 90:3 ; You turn man back into dust And say, "Return, O children of men."
Psa 104:29; You hide Your face, they are dismayed; You take away their spirit, they expire And return to their dust.
Ecc 3:20; All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust.
Ecc 12:7; then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.
1 Cor 15:35; But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?"
1 Cor 15:36; You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies;
1 Cor 15:44; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
1 Cor 15:45; So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1 Cor 15:46; However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
The book of John in particular talks about the resurrection... on the "last day"
John 6:39; "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
John 6:40; "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
John 6:44; "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:54; "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 11:24; Martha *said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."
John 12:48; "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
Christ Tomlin had a popular song a few years ago... the lyrics said "I will rise when He calls my name".
This is very controversial, and it seems this has caused division in the church over the years.
But what exactly is the "last day"?
1 Thes 4:16; For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
Some say it means the "last day of your life".
Some it means the rapture of second coming of Jesus - 1 Thes 4:16; seems to support that the "dead in Christ" won't rise until this time.
John 5:28; "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29; and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
Jesus said "an hour" is coming, not many hours for many people. This seems to indicate that everyone will rise at same time, the same instant.
There is further division over what this means. What does it mean to "rise", or to be resurrected?
Some people believe in "soul sleep". The soul stays in the ground until it is "called to rise". Perhaps it is still in Abraham's Bosom?
The argument with 2 Cor 5:8; is these people you are still present with your current body, you aren't absent from it yet.
The flip side of this is spiritism. People take many of the verses Curtis posted in the previous message, and say we are "already in heaven".
This is the only heaven there is. That believe Christians don't need to go to heaven. They are already there.
I personally hope this isn't the case. Heaven is a bit of a dissapointment. I thought there would be no more tears, pain, or sorrow there.
But also, the Bible says some people will be removed "out of" the kingdom of heaven. (The parable of the net/bad fish, and the parable of the wheat and tares, and the parable of the tree that refused to bear fruit for example).
Another thought here is... I might be an American citizen, and my citizenship might be in the US, but that doesn't mean I currently reside in the US.
The 3rd and probably most common perspective here is, only the spirit/soul goes to heaven immediately, and the body gets resurrected later.
The main argument against this.. is that our current body does not get resurrected, but we get a new "spiritual" body. ( 1 Cor 15 )
There are several verses that say our old fleshly body returns to the dust from which it came. (Mostly in the old testament)
So this likely raises more questions than answers... but it does pertain to "the current heaven" and whether anyone besides God is ther yet. Also are they only there in Spirit, or in body also?
Some other verses to consider...
1 Cor 15:52; in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
Gen 3:19; By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."
Job 34:15; All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust.
Psa 90:3 ; You turn man back into dust And say, "Return, O children of men."
Psa 104:29; You hide Your face, they are dismayed; You take away their spirit, they expire And return to their dust.
Ecc 3:20; All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust.
Ecc 12:7; then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.
1 Cor 15:35; But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?"
1 Cor 15:36; You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies;
1 Cor 15:44; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
1 Cor 15:45; So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1 Cor 15:46; However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
Brother-Paul
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Thanks for joining in the conversations @Curtis it is so important to consider all scripture.
I think the verses you are referring to here, up to Col 3:1 from your list, particularly Luke 17, are referring to the 'Kingdom of God' within us, on earth now, the Spirit of Christ in every saved believer.
Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
But Php 3:20 is referring to our citizenship in Heaven, Current Heaven, as we await our Saviour the Lord Jesus Christ to return.
Php 3:21 confirms the Lord's return for His Church, when our lowly bodies will be transformed by His power.
Brother-Paul
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Your last sentence sums this part up well @B-A-C - 'What exactly is the Last Day?
Surely if our Lord is talking about His Return this has to be the Last Day to be in context. He says so much about His Return for His Bride, whom He loves so much, does this not seem He is saying it is the last day for our waiting and yearning to be with Him and Him with us.
This refers to our Lord's final coming when the devil will be defeated, and all things made new, the saved believers whose name is in the Book of Life and the Lamb will get their new resurrected bodies in the New Heaven/New Earth, starting with the dead in Christ first. The none believers, lost souls will be raised to judgement, they will come before The Great White Throne judgement, what a terrible time that will be for them.
As we included in the posts of the last few days, this is wrong thinking, the spirit and soul of every saved believer goes to heaven, to be with the Lord, the body returns to the dust of the earth. Post #71 quotes scripture for the soul, the spirit going to heaven is referred to further back.
No worries brother, this is false thinking, they are mistaking the Spirit of Christ in every believer on earth now. I just replied to @Curtis confirming this and listed.
They Kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
Heaven will be on earth brother, but on the New Heaven/New Earth with resurrected bodies, we will come to the Eternal Heaven when this thread for the Current Heaven is concluded. It will be exciting, it will be a wonderful place, scripture confirms it, and we will be with our Lord forever.
That is exactly what scripture says and verses are listed in this thread which confirm this.
The answers are in 1 Cor 15, it also lists the order of things to the end, I will list this chapter in a post on it's own after this reply brother.
I see a mixture of statement here my friend, allow me to confirm as I see them.
This is Christ's final return when He defeats the devil and makes all things new.
These verses refer to the body returning to the dust at our first death.
The body is sown a natural body, it was created by God, God created Adam (body) from the dust of the earth, but it was dead until God breathed into him the breath of life, the spirit of God, man then became a living being. So at the first death, caused by sin, the body has to return back to the earth, but the spirit and soul as we have read in previous posts goes to heaven. This is prior to the Rapture, and prior to Christ's coming in Glory to defeat the devil and make all things new.
1 Cor 15:46 refers to that said above about Adam, God created the body first then added the spirit, the spirit was not first.
Bless you and thank you
Brother-Paul
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1 Corinthians 15 (NKJV)
The Risen Christ, Faith’s Reality
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,
5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve.
6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. (died)
7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles.
8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.
9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
11 Therefore, whether it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.
The Risen Christ, Our Hope
12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen.
14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.
15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise.
16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.
17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!
18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.
The Last Enemy Destroyed (At Christ's coming in Glory)
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.
28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
Effects of Denying the Resurrection
29 Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead?
30 And why do we stand in jeopardy every hour?
31 I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
32 If, in the manner of men, I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantage is it to me? If the dead do not rise, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!”
33 Do not be deceived: “Evil company corrupts good habits.”
34 Awake to righteousness, and do not sin; for some do not have the knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.
A Glorious Body
35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?”
36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies.
37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain.
38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.
43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. (Our Spirit and Soul go to the Current Heaven)
47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
Our Final Victory (from Current Heaven to Eternal Heaven)
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.
Each section has to be read in context to the order and stage written.
In His Love \o/
The Risen Christ, Faith’s Reality
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures,
5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve.
6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. (died)
7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles.
8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.
9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
11 Therefore, whether it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.
The Risen Christ, Our Hope
12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen.
14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty.
15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise.
16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen.
17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!
18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.
The Last Enemy Destroyed (At Christ's coming in Glory)
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.
28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
Effects of Denying the Resurrection
29 Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead?
30 And why do we stand in jeopardy every hour?
31 I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
32 If, in the manner of men, I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantage is it to me? If the dead do not rise, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!”
33 Do not be deceived: “Evil company corrupts good habits.”
34 Awake to righteousness, and do not sin; for some do not have the knowledge of God. I speak this to your shame.
A Glorious Body
35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?”
36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies.
37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain.
38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption.
43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. (Our Spirit and Soul go to the Current Heaven)
47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.
Our Final Victory (from Current Heaven to Eternal Heaven)
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.
Each section has to be read in context to the order and stage written.
In His Love \o/
Brother-Paul
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- Jul 14, 2015
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We now enter the last stages of the Current Heaven and this is one that will be influenced by peoples understanding of scripture.
What we need to consider next is when will the Rapture takes place, pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation or at the end of the Great Tribulation when Christ Returns in Glory, defeats the devil and makes all things new.
Your comments are welcome, please try include scripture to confirm when you think the Rapture will occur.
The only area left for us to consider in the Current Heaven period is from the Rapture to Christ's Final Return.
In this period, will there be physical bodies, spiritual bodies and souls or both?
What we need to consider next is when will the Rapture takes place, pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation or at the end of the Great Tribulation when Christ Returns in Glory, defeats the devil and makes all things new.
Your comments are welcome, please try include scripture to confirm when you think the Rapture will occur.
The only area left for us to consider in the Current Heaven period is from the Rapture to Christ's Final Return.
In this period, will there be physical bodies, spiritual bodies and souls or both?
Curtis
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Brother Paul, can a man be "in" Christ and not be where Christ is right now? Can Christ be in a man and Christ "not" be where ever man is? The answer to both of these question is no. How is this possible? Because Jesus gave us his Glory so we could "one" with God at all times, never being absent from his presence nor is he ever absent from our presence. I am in Christ who is sitting on the right hand of God, and Christ is in me on this earth all at the same time!
Curtis
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The resurrection of the "dead" refers to mans physical body not his spirit. What the Church is waiting for is to "know" the redemption of our bodies which happens when Jesus returns.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
The words, "to wit" means, "to know". We are not waiting to "know" the redemption of our spirit because we are already saved, and sitting on the right hand of God in Christ in Heaven!
Brother-Paul
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Greeting brother
The answer is yes. When we are born again the Spirit of Christ dwells in us, He in us and us with Him. John 15
John 15:4-5 (NKJV)
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
John 15:6-8 (NKJV)
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.
8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
If we abide in Him and He in us, God the Father is Glorified.
