KingJ said:

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Mankind is accountable for sin because mankind has high intelligence. We are able to grasp the difference between good and evil. So if giants / mutated species also had high intelligence, a good God would have to give them true free will.

You and Bendito do not realize that you both espouse a foolish and wicked God...........................

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I will let the Lord instruct you about God being foolish and wicked. Read Job meanwhile.

So what in scripture suggests to you giants were intelligent or even in the human class, which is made after the likeness and image of God? They were the offspring of human women and fallen angelic influence, whatever that actually was, be it intercourse or demonic possession unto mutation.

Do not angels have high intelligence, yet are not heirs of salvation? Those that offended were put immediately into hell without mercy. Do you think God was foolish or wicked doing that to them? What of their "free will"? Well, I find a third of them chose poorly and are giving account already, and will be stuck with that forever if the great day judgment goes against them. I predict it will.
2 Peter 2:4 (KJV)
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
Jude 1:6 (KJV)
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Dovegiven said:

Do not angels have high intelligence, yet are not heirs of salvation? Those that offended were put immediately into hell without mercy. Do you think God was foolish or wicked doing that to them? What of their "free will"? Well, I find a third of them chose poorly and are giving account already, and will be stuck with that forever if the great day judgment goes against them. I predict it will.
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The point is free will. Salvation is a part of our free will.

Angels rebelled from a state of being with God. They exercised their free will in heaven.

Humans are born into sin. We exercise our free will by repenting. Jesus / salvation then unites us with God.

So it is a moot argument you making by saying salvation does not exist for angels.

Now, giants? I guess God is completely partial, wicked and was seemingly unaware that they would be around.

KingJ said:

The point is free will. Salvation is a part of our free will.

Angels rebelled from a state of being with God. They exercised their free will in heaven.

Humans are born into sin. We exercise our free will by repenting. Jesus / salvation then unites us with God.

So it is a moot argument you making by saying salvation does not exist for angels.

Now, giants? I guess God is completely partial, wicked and was seemingly unaware that they would be around.

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Let me put it this way. All angels that sin at all are condemned instantly, most chained in the bottomless pit. Angels who remain in good standing would not need to be saved, even from death, seeing no angel dies. To be saved means to be delivered from the curse of of the Law, from certain eternal death by sin, by the blood of Jesus applied to sinners who have not ever seen God the Father, who repent of sin and believe by faith the gospel of Christ. If that was desired by an angel, it would be too late, pointless, seeing the angel would join those already chained and reserved for the Judgment Day. There is no excuse for beings who lived with God in Heaven, worshiped God, served God, knew so much of God, and of Jesus. There's a similar warning for men in Hebrews 10. They angels saw the Father whom no man has seen, save through Christ. Today they surround Jesus and the Father on their thrones, to be joined by the faithful in Christ. It's hard to imagine those of old who abandoned that wonderful estate, reduced to mostly innumerable demonic spirits out of their chained bodies!

(Gen. 6:5-7) "And God saw the wickedness of man....And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth...And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created...."

Seems pretty clear that God is talking about 'man'.

Quantrill

Dovegiven said:

Let me put it this way. All angels that sin at all are condemned instantly, most chained in the bottomless pit. Angels who remain in good standing would not need to be saved, even from death, seeing no angel dies. To be saved means to be delivered from the curse of of the Law, from certain eternal death by sin, by the blood of Jesus applied to sinners who have not ever seen God the Father, who repent of sin and believe by faith the gospel of Christ. If that was desired by an angel, it would be too late, pointless, seeing the angel would join those already chained and reserved for the Judgment Day. There is no excuse for beings who lived with God in Heaven, worshiped God, served God, knew so much of God, and of Jesus. There's a similar warning for men in Hebrews 10. They angels saw the Father whom no man has seen, save through Christ. Today they surround Jesus and the Father on their thrones, to be joined by the faithful in Christ. It's hard to imagine those of old who abandoned that wonderful estate, reduced to mostly innumerable demonic spirits out of their chained bodies!

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I will add that along with the rebellious people on earth being drowned and crushed in the massive world-wide flood ("tsunami") waves high enough to sweep the tallest mountains, the whole of air breathing beasts of all kinds, including animals not brought aboard the Ark, perished with mankind. All nature suffered because of man's rebellion. The fallen angels were already in the pit, not subjected to man's sin results, leaving Satan and some Principalities and Powers ruling until Jesus took the keys back. Mankind reeled when that year long event began plate tectonics, spreading land masses into continents, creating high mountain ranges, and sedimentary rock layers many miles deep, then folding mountains over those layers. It was like a global taffy pulling.

So how did we get from Job to this? Well, we learn of the great power of God revealed to Job, including some science not realized for millennia until by modern scientists who finally figured out the origin of hail stones and the overall hydrologic cycle already told in Job.

Quantrill said:

It has already been stated that in the time of Job, there was no written revelation. There was no Israel, or the temple, or the tabernacle. But Job had a certain understanding of God that had no doubt been passed down from Adam and Enoch and so on. That understanding was very basic, yet sufficient for the time. But the understanding of the time did not provide an answer for the trials and sufferings Job was going through. Which is why God brought this upon Job.

There are interesting verses in (Job 38:31-32) where God is questioning Job concerning Job's questioning God. "Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion? Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?

The Mazzaroth is the 12 signs of what we call the Zodiac. Orion and Pleiades and Arcturus are constellations and star groups that figure into the Zodiac. Remember, this is God speaking. He is saying that He will bring forth Mazzaroth in his season. In other words He will accomplish the Zodiac in the right time and he reminds Job that he has no ability to accomplish, change or alter this.

But God asks Job as though Job is aware of it. Else why would He ask him such. So, is it not possible that what we know as the Zodiac was an ancient revelation from God prior to the written revelation we have in the Bible? Joseph Seiss has a very good book concerning this called "The Gospel In The Stars".

Quantrill

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Lest any be concerned, remember this is not astrology, which is certainly condemned by God. This is astronomy, recognizing that these 12 signs of the Mazzaroth or Zodiac are placed there by God. Here is a brief description of these 12 I found in E.W. Bullingers book, 'The witness of the Stars'.

1.) Virgo----The Virgin with promised Seed.

2.) Libra----Scales, the price deficient balanced by the price which covers.

3.) Scorpio----Scorpion, seeking to wound but trodden underfoot.

4.) Sagittarius----Archer, the two natured Conqueror.

5.) Capricornus----Fishgoat, the goat of atonment.

6.) Aquarius----Water bearer, living waters of blessing poured forth for redeemed.

7.) Pices----Fish, the redeemed blessed though bound.

8.) Aries----Ram or Lamb, the Lamb that was slain, prepared for victory

9.) Taurus----The Bull, Messiah coming to rule.

10. Gemini----Twofold nature of the King

11.) Cancer----The Crab, the possession held fast.

12.) Leo----The Lion, of the tribe of Judah, aroused for the rending of the enemy.

(Gen. 1:14) "And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

(Ps. 19:1-2) "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard."

(Job 38:32) "Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?"

Quantrill

Dovegiven said:

Let me put it this way. All angels that sin at all are condemned instantly, most chained in the bottomless pit. Angels who remain in good standing would not need to be saved, even from death, seeing no angel dies. To be saved means to be delivered from the curse of of the Law, from certain eternal death by sin, by the blood of Jesus applied to sinners who have not ever seen God the Father, who repent of sin and believe by faith the gospel of Christ. If that was desired by an angel, it would be too late, pointless, seeing the angel would join those already chained and reserved for the Judgment Day. There is no excuse for beings who lived with God in Heaven, worshiped God, served God, knew so much of God, and of Jesus. There's a similar warning for men in Hebrews 10. They angels saw the Father whom no man has seen, save through Christ. Today they surround Jesus and the Father on their thrones, to be joined by the faithful in Christ. It's hard to imagine those of old who abandoned that wonderful estate, reduced to mostly innumerable demonic spirits out of their chained bodies!

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You are just ''not'' grasping God. God is good. God is impartial. God is fair.

You need to grasp ''sin full measure''. A human is a creation beneath the angels. Their sin reaches full measure after a while. It is not instant. Never is. Humans whose sin reaches full measure, go to hell as they would never / will never accept Jesus / desire to partake of salvation.

Angels, created above us, did not need to be created on earth first. As their desire to go from no sin / some sin to sin full measure is shorter then us. They have minds that can better grasp depths of intent.

There is NO partiality from God. No favoritism. If angels were created on our level, they too would be part of this route back to heaven via the cross.

They are not ''unlucky'' to be angels. We are not ''lucky'' to be humans. This kind of thinking suggests God is partial and a fool. God is neither.

No fallen angel would ever accept Jesus as Lord as their love of sin is full measure. That is why they were removed from heaven.

Every human on earth is only currently alive because they still have hope. No 'sin full measure'.

One more point, you start off with ''all angles that sin are condemned instantly''. Disagree 100%. Only God is good Mark 10:18. Jesus did 'not' say, God and the angels are good. He said ''only'' God is good. Those that were kicked out of heaven had sin full measure.

Jesus says the devil has been sinning from the beginning. IE He has never wanted to stop sinning. If he did, Jesus would have said ''he sinned and did some good, but because he sinned once, I kicked him out of heaven''. He did not say that!

KingJ said:

Their sin reaches full measure after a while. It is not instant. Never is. Humans whose sin reaches full measure, go to hell as they would never / will never accept Jesus / desire to partake of salvation.

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Hello Brother hope all is well, I just dont understand the above perhaps you could elaborate a bit more

, for example there are plenty of people out of a moments rage that have killed people (full measure) and then later and repent turn to Christ while in prison and are saved.

KingJ said:

Humans whose sin reaches full measure, go to hell as they would never / will never accept Jesus / desire to partake of salvation.

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This may be off topic but doesn't this verse show that there is no sin that will not be forgiven (except blasphemy of Holy Spirit)?

Mark 3:28-30: "Truly I tell you, all sins and blasphemes will be forgiven for the sons of men. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin.

So while it could be that a person could become so depraved and sink into sin so deeply that it may appear that they would never turn to Christ, yet there is hope for them yet, while they are alive.

Dave M said:

Hello Brother hope all is well, I just dont understand the above perhaps you could elaborate a bit more, for example there are plenty of people out of a moments rage that have killed people (full measure) and then later and repent turn to Christ while in prison and are saved.

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If they repent then their sin was not full measure. God sees their hearts and minds at depths of intent that we can't. Jer 17:9-11. Only God can grasp when sin is full measure. We can, when we see a person die unrepentant in sin.

To grasp the concept of 'sin full measure' one needs to put one-liners on sin to the side and use some rational thought on many examples in the OT.

Noah and the flood. God looks down at earth, sees people in wickedness. His desired balance of good and evil lobsided to evil. So, He warns them. Just as He does Sodom. Just as He does to Nineveh. Just as He did to the Canaanites. He then gives them ample time to repent. We have to note that the sin upset God such that He was prompted to warn them of His inevitable punishment on their sin. The sin of Sodom was great. This sin of the people at the time of the flood was great. We know what sins angered God in the OT. It is truly not rocket science. Idolatry with the golden calf. GLBT. Murder. Adultery. Etc etc All those sins that warranted a death by stoning among the Jews. We just have to grasp that the death by stoning penalty was enforced on ''His'' people only. Makes one think of how a ''Christian'' in gross sin likely has a much shorter time before their sin is full measure. Those outside / non Jews got warnings and ample time to repent. So, now when they continue in their extremities of sin, there time runs out. There is a cut off time. With the flood it was the time it took to build the ark. With Sodom, it was not long as the outcry against them was so high. Gen 18:20 Then the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know. With the Amorites God delayed it for long Gen 15:16 In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure. Sinners at that time, but only in the fourth generation would their sin be of such an evil that God would be justified in destroying them. Nineveh's sin was great, but they heeded Jonah's warning and fasted with the animals for a month. If they did not fast. Their sin would have been full measure and God would have destroyed them in a similar to Sodom fashion.

God knows the point of no return. He did not make a mistake removing the devil from heaven. Just think on that. I have thought long on why it is that the devil is always there to be used of by God for evil. Why does he just do evil over and over. God can rely on the devil to corrupt, lie and hurt. Every time. No dissapointment. The devil is 100% sold out to sin. He '''loves''' what is evil full measure. Like a pedophile with children. Put children with a pedophile and he will be in his sick element. God needs to restrain the devil. He does. But the devil even with restraints relishes the invitation to corrupt humans whom God has hope for.

God does not make mistakes. There will be absolutely nobody in hell that desires truthful repentance at any depth of intent over there love of what is evil. The verdict is that people reject the light because they love darkness John 3:19. The exact same line can be said of the fallen angels.

Chad4Him said:

This may be off topic but doesn't this verse show that there is no sin that will not be forgiven (except blasphemy of Holy Spirit)?

Mark 3:28-30: "Truly I tell you, all sins and blasphemes will be forgiven for the sons of men. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, but is guilty of an eternal sin.

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All sin can be forgiven. Even those stoned to death in the OT had Psalm 51:17 to fall back on. Psalm 51:17 My sacrifice, O God, is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart you, God, will not despise. Truthful repentance. God's message to mankind from day 1.

The context of Matt 3:28-30 Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and a verse like 1 John 5:16 needs to be interrogated further. 1 John 5:16 If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that.

I believe the secret to better understanding Mark 3:29 lies in Matt 12:32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

God the Son. God the Holy Spirit. Yet blasphemy against the Son is forgiven but not blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Why? Well why is the Holy Spirit here? John 15:26 When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father he will testify about me.

Jesus had a duty. It was to be a Lamb to the slaughter Isa 53:7 He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. He could have called a thousand angels to His aid Matt 26:53, but He did not. Instead He said ''Your will be done'' Luke 22:42.

The duty given to the Holy Spirit is to teach us Jesus. Testify about Him. Lead us into all truth on Jesus, the cross, eternal life, Godliness. Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is thus rejecting Jesus. Rejecting God's plan of salvation for mankind Cursing the Holy Spirit is to curse Jesus. Mock Him. Mock it. Grieve the Holy Spirit. When the Holy Spirit is grieved, stops reaching out to teach us about Jesus, what hope is there for us? Unpardonable sin = reject Jesus.

1 John 5:16 'Sin unto death', I believe is grieving the Holy Spirit obviously. But I believe we can also understand it by looking at all the OT examples where.....sin resulted in death.

Chad4Him said:

So while it could be that a person could become so depraved and sink into sin so deeply that it may appear that they would never turn to Christ, yet there is hope for them yet, while they are alive

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Yes, while they are alive. Death can come quick though. Those in mortal sins need to count their days. Be grateful every morning they wake up. As God has thoughts of dropping fire and brimstone on their heads Gen 19:24 Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah from out of the heavens.

Dovegiven said:

I will let the Lord instruct you about God being foolish and wicked. Read Job meanwhile.

So what in scripture suggests to you giants were intelligent or even in the human class, which is made after the likeness and image of God? They were the offspring of human women and fallen angelic influence, whatever that actually was, be it intercourse or demonic possession unto mutation.

Do not angels have high intelligence, yet are not heirs of salvation? Those that offended were put immediately into hell without mercy. Do you think God was foolish or wicked doing that to them? What of their "free will"? Well, I find a third of them chose poorly and are giving account already, and will be stuck with that forever if the great day judgment goes against them. I predict it will.
2 Peter 2:4 (KJV)
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
Jude 1:6 (KJV)
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

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Who said God was foolish? Not I. Who said God is wicked? Not I
What does intelligence levels have to do with salvation? We know the giants WERE smart...They built the pyramids. They built Balbek. and many other places...Maccu Pichu for one...Moving stones that weighted tons, forty miles and up two thousand feet, shaping them in ways we cannot duplicate, Transporting two million stones that weigh up to twenty tons across eighty miles of sand for the pyramid of Giza alone. That was no job for dummies my friend.

You and I, both intelligent people know first hand how smart people can say and do dumb things....But the Word does not speak of that....

KingJ said:

The point is free will. Salvation is a part of our free will.

Angels rebelled from a state of being with God. They exercised their free will in heaven.

Humans are born into sin. We exercise our free will by repenting. Jesus / salvation then unites us with God.

So it is a moot argument you making by saying salvation does not exist for angels.

Now, giants? I guess God is completely partial, wicked and was seemingly unaware that they would be around.

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Oh Such scorching sarcasm in that last line...LOLOL

@Chad4Him @KingJ @Dave M @Dovegiven
I can move and create another thread if you all would like. Bring it back around to the thread subject please.
Thanks.

no need for me, thanks for asking maybe the others would

1 Peter 2:20
For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God.

1 Peter 2:21
For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps,

1 Peter 2:22
WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH;

1 Peter 2:23
and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously;


Reading Peter this morning I could not help but think of how all the old testament stories point to Christ in the NT. I

1 Peter 3:14
But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed. AND DO NOT FEAR THEIR INTIMIDATION, AND DO NOT BE TROUBLED,

But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed.

But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed.

KingJ said:

The point is free will. Salvation is a part of our free will.

Angels rebelled from a state of being with God. They exercised their free will in heaven.

Humans are born into sin. We exercise our free will by repenting. Jesus / salvation then unites us with God.

So it is a moot argument you making by saying salvation does not exist for angels.

Now, giants? I guess God is completely partial, wicked and was seemingly unaware that they would be around.

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While mankind is after the image and likeness of God, subject to temptation like Jesus lived out, there is no excuse for any being which once saw the face of God, serving Him, for any disagreement with the Father! For us who have not been in that hot seat, there is mercy, then grace for the understandably ignorant.

Where is there a scripture that supports salvation of angels who rebelled?

So you assume God saves even rebellious fallen angels and their offspring according to their former relations to Him, however unnatural? Was David wicked for conquering the last of the giants with the stone of his sling?

welp I just started a study on Job some versus that pop out.

From the below verse it seems that God allowed satin at Job to test job. God clearly says job has done nothing deserving the torment allowed on him.

Job 2:3
The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him to ruin him without cause."


the below verse to me shows great faith, even when those around him had non.

Job 2:10
He replied, "You are talking like a foolish woman. Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?" In all this, Job did not sin in what he said.

Dovegiven said:

While mankind is after the image and likeness of God, subject to temptation like Jesus lived out, there is no excuse for any being which once saw the face of God, serving Him, for any disagreement with the Father! For us who have not been in that hot seat, there is mercy, then grace for the understandably ignorant.

Where is there a scripture that supports salvation of angels who rebelled?

So you assume God saves even rebellious fallen angels and their offspring according to their former relations to Him, however unnatural? Was David wicked for conquering the last of the giants with the stone of his sling?

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Dovegiven please read my posts properly.